lland

Anyone else get a letter about the pending PAX class action lawsuit? Mine came today offering me the opportunity to prevent Honda from providing my contact information to the attorneys.

LL

JimA

I havent heard about this however I'm interested since I was just informed by my dealer that they cannot allign my wheels because they don't have the equipment and don't know who can!

Jim

dwboston

Call Acura Client Services about that dealer. That sounds like complete BS.

They can't do an alignment or they can't balance the wheels? Why would the tires make any difference in an alignment?

TampaRLX-SH

Jim,

Which Dealer?

JimA

Crown Acura in Clearwater, FL. They finaly said that they could send the car to a Honda dealer and get it done. I ask just what would I do in Montana if I shreaded a tire and he said that he didn't know. The bottom line is thay don't have the adapters to allow aligning Pax tire equiped RLs.

As far as the class action suit following is the info I found.

Jim

AMERICAN HONDA: Sued in Calif. Federal Court Over Run-Flat Tires
----------------------------------------------------------------
Michelin North America and American Honda Motor Co. Inc. are
facing a class action alleging fraud in relation to the
companies' run-flat tires, an innovation that allows motorists
to continue to drive even after a car's tire has lost some air.

The suit, filed in U.S. district court in Los Angeles on March
6, doesn't dispute that the tires offer a safety advantage, but
says buyers were deceived about replacement costs and repairs.

The tire at the center of the suit is the Michelin Energy LX4
PAX run-flat, as fitted to the 2005-7 U.S. market Honda Odyssey
Touring and available as an option on the 2006-7 Acura RL.

PAX has a supportive internal polyurethane ring that allows for
a more comfortable ride and better fuel economy as there is no
need for the tire's sidewall to be as stiff as in other run-flat
designs. However, this feature also makes the PAX more
difficult to repair.

The suit is "Jean Carper et al. v. American Honda Motor Co. Inc.
et al., Case No. 2:07-cv-01481-MMM-AJW," filed in U.S. District
Court for the Central District of California under Judge
Margaret M. Morrow with referral to Andrew J. Wistrich.

Representing plaintiffs Jean Carper and Michael Muhlfelder are:

(1) Mark F. Anderson at Kemnitzer Anderson Barron and
Ogilvie, 445 Bush Street, 6th Floor, San Francisco, CA
94108, Phone: 415-861-2265, E-mail: mark@kabolaw.com;
and

(2) Natalie Finkelman Bennett at Shephard Finkelman Miller
and Shah, 35 East State Street, Media, PA 19063, U.S.,
Phone: 610-891-9880.

Chas2

Interesting thread. One notable point,

I have read nothing but trouble with the Michelin Energy LX4 PAX tires, primarily centered on quick wear, far faster than the 80K warranty might imply.

With regard to the RL's Michelin Pilot HX MXM4, although it is only this forum and VTEC.net, I have heard only good things with regard to ride and wear, and I have no complaints about my RL PAX tires.

lland

I have no complaints (yet) either but I've never had a problem far from a dealer or service facility (my Acura dealer did replace one wheel/tire unit (no questions asked) due to a slow leak). I am however, very concerned about the cost of replacing them when the time comes.

LL

dwboston

I had a conversation with the service manager at my dealer the other day about the PAX tires. They don't service them but a tire center 1/2 mile away has the PAX equipment and keeps the tires in stock for the Acura dealer and the Honda dealer nearby.

I have no complaints about the performance of the PAX tires either. I just rotated them at 7,500 miles and they still look new. I wonder about the replacement cost as well a couple of years from now. Maybe the class-action suit will be settled by then. One upside to the low # of RL's (and especially CMBS/PAX RL's) sold is that maybe it makes it more likely that Honda will settle as we're not talking about tens of thousands of cars, only a few thousand.

lland

My dealer didn't service them either (funny thing, the Honda dealer just down the street, not even 1/4 mile away does)...which is why they just swapped out the whole assembly for a slow leak but the Service Manager recently told me they got the tire changing equipment. I'm still "nervous" about having a problem away from a servicing dealer. I agree with the rest of your post though...

neuronbob

I don't own a PAX-equipped car, but feel for those who do. Acura must address this problem. If you are a cross-country driver like I am (I love road trips) and you have a problem in Hays, Kansas....you are SOL. That is a HUGE issue if you own PAX. The ride may be good and there may not be an issue with the tires themselves, servicing is a big issue.

JimA

See the following article at Forbes, it will give you a warm fealing

Jim

http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited...fx4339121.html

Jackzilla

Other than perhaps the further lack of support of PAX by Acura/Honda, nothing much has really changed eg. PAX tires have always been a pain in the a__ to have repaired or replaced. The fact that Michelin is no longer going to continue development undoubetecly just means there is no further liklihood of wider availablity of facilities capable of servicing the wheel/tire assemblies -- probably less, in the long run, since the installed base of these tires is very limited.

Certainly, morally at least, Acura/Honda owes some sort of adjustment to owners of their vehicles with these tires. However, on a purely legal ground (at least in my opinion) nothing really has changed. The tires will still be available for service replacement -- only the probably ever higher costs and difficulties of service and diminishing service facilities will be problems for owners. So, stonewalling until most existing owners get rid of their vehicles or replace the wheel assemblies with standard wheels may be the course -- not the best for customer relations or company reputation, but certainly the cheapest, at least pending the outcome of the class action suit.

The new 2009 Acura wheels offer a perfect solution -- if Acura chooses to do ANYTHING. They're virtually the same diameter as the PAX wheels (18") and thus offer a wide choice of replacement tires. A voucher for a set of these wheels and TPMS monitors would be a simple and logical way to go for owners -- obviously tires would be at the owners expense, but that's something that would have to be done eventually anyway, so it wouldn't be any real added cost. Also, there are many more tire choices in the 18" size than in the old 17" wheel size. Only possible problem here would be with the suspension differences on the PAX cars -- would it really need to be modified for the regular wheels? For legal protection reasons it might, but the only change needed, that I can find, is a change of the rear shocks.

In the meantime, a set of take-off wheels (from E-Bay) offers a really economical way to change over. The going price (about $800) for a complete set of wheels, tires and TPMS monitors (mounted and balanced) is far less than the cost of a new set of PAX tires, when mounting, balancing and cost are factored in. Take-offs are a direct bolt-on (with new lug nuts) and should not upset the computer at all -- they're virvually the same rolling diameter, only a fraction of an inch less in dia.

I am looking at this as a simple solution, since I have PAX tires. No problems with them so far and they are wearing like iron -- but prudence and the service and cost factors just dictate some other solution when replecement time comes.

JimA

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=2]
I agree with most of what you say, however we are all prisoners of Honda/Acura since a scan of the Michelin dealers in the Tampa FL area (20 mile radius) listed 93 dealers and only 3 Pax (actual list was 7) however they are counting Honda & Acura dealers, including mine, that don't do anything except swap out your tires & rims. Many cannot mount the tires and in my case don't have the necessary alignment tools required for Pax equipped tires.

I asked about the availability of the tires & service and was told that it wasn't a problem!

The problem as I see it is a safety issue in one case. If you are not near a major metropolitan area chances of getting service are slim. You could end up stranded in the boondocks.

You suggest getting a new set of rims and tires. You failed to mention the needed spare mini tire that you will need. We all paid a significant uplift in price for the "PAX system" and I believe given the problems that Acura/Honda owes us a replacement option of the standard RL rims and high end Michelin tires plus the spare wheel & tire. The problems are mainly an Acura/Honda problem since they did not require the dealers to be properly equipped. To expect the owner to absorb these costs is ridiculous since Acura/Honda already made money on the original purchase.

As far as the swap out process goes I do not want to give up my well maintained and undamaged rims for unknown rims.

This is a fair deal since Acura/Honda gets your tires and rims and they can most likely use the rims and inter tires to maintain the tires of those that don't want a replacement.

Jim

JimA

The following link has more info on the PAX class action suit as well as a link that will allow you to

"If you own or lease an Acura or Honda vehicle equipped with the Michelin PAX Tires and Wheel Assembly System and would like to learn more about this litigation, please submit a complaint here."

The "submit a complaint here" is highlighted in blue and will send you to a form to enter the data.



http://www.paxsystemclassaction.com/index.html

Jackzilla

I certainly agree that morally, if (at least for the present) not legally, Acura/Honda does owe PAX/RL owners some compensating solution for Michelin's pulling the plug on the PAX system -- plus their own apparent pull-back from properly supporting their customers.

From what I can gather, the pending class action on PAX by the Odyssey Touring owners revolves more around the owners expectations viz-a-viz tread life and cost of tire replacement. Difficutlies in obtaining service and repairs seem to be more peripheral (a significant added annoyance, though) to the issue of premature need for replacement.

I don't know what the tread wear rating of the PAX tires on the Odyssey is, but the fact that the mini-van is at least 500 lbs heavier than the RL, besides the tires being narrower, suggests to me a faster wear rate. The tread wear rating of 300, for the RL PAX tires would suggest a potential tread life of 40K to 50K miles. And, this in fact seems possible, since my own PAX tires (at 12.5K miles)show virtually no measurable wear.

Having owned a 2000 Odyssey with Michelin Symmetry tires (OEM) with a 300 tread wear rating, I know that this quality tire will run a long way before needing replacement -- mine lasted 60K miles and were still good when I sold the car. Not saying that the similarly rated PAX on the RL will last that long, but it's not out of the question considering the cost and quality of the tires - which I believe is better than those of the Odyssey.

Question to other RL/PAX owners: how high is your milage and how are the tires wearing?

In my case there happens to be an independent high performance tire dealer (in Myrtle Beach, of all places) just about 7 miles from my home, who is an authourized PAX service center. So repairs (not that I've needed them yet) are not really an issue for me -- other than the cost which I understand is not inconsiderable. Nevertheless, the potential problems of repair when traveling are a real concern. So much so, that shortly after buying our RL (used, and unaware of the PAX tires at time of purchace) I bought a salvage mini-spare on E-Bay, simply for added insurance when traveling. Thus, my neglecting to mention it as a requirement, if replacing the PAX tires with standard wheel assemblies.

It was very inexpensive at the time ($35), but you are correct -- it is quite expensive from the dealer and, it seems, most of the salvage yards now realize it's a demand item since the PAX discontinuance and now want at least $200. It is exceptional as mini-spares go, however, since it is fully the same diameter as the standard tire assembly, with a beautifully made aluminum rim. Really an exceptional piece compared to what you'd normally expect of a mini. Plus, it is very light-weight, just 32 lbs.

At this point really only time will tell what (if anything) Acura/Honda will do to address the potential issues arising for those of us with PAX tires. Undoubtedly, there are actual design engineering and liability safety issues for a manufacturer that make simply swapping wheel assemblies more complcated than for an owner. Perhaps this is why no response is immediately forthcoming.

Whatever the case, there are solutions for PAX owners, personally, and I just wanted to point out that they aren't necessarily even as costly as a new set of PAX tires. And, incidentally, most of the take-off sets of wheels offered by Acura dealers on E-Bay are guaranteed to be in perfect, like-new condition, usually with only 10 - 12 miles wear, hence listed as used, but really brand new. Just about any set of new custom rims (A-spec included) plus tires mounting and balancing will run at a minimum $1700 to over $2500. Moreover, there's no question whatsoever about RL take-offs being a perfect bolt-on fit.

Jackzilla

Just as a sidelight to the PAX discussion is the possible reason Michelin stopped development.

If you do a Google search for an item called a "Tweel" you'll discover where Michelin is undoubtedly devoting it's wheel development efforts now.

The description of what is billed as an "airless" wheel/tire combination suggests that this is now where Michelin sees the ultmate development of automobile wheel/tires as heading.

With one fell swoop this development would spell a complete end to flat tires of any kind -- as well as blow- outs and every other type of tire failure. No need, apparently ever, for a spare because a flat Tweel is impossible.

There is apparently lots of development work still needed, but if successful it could mean the end of the pneumatic tire as we know it -- and its replacement with something that's even superior.

Check it out!

JimA

My RL tires only have 18K miles and appear to have plenty of tread left. The reason for the alignment that the dealer couldn't do was because of a slight pull to the right that developed and no it isn't low pressure. You also have to consider resale value of your RL since the info is out about the pax tires.

I just replaced the tires on my wifes TL at 48K with high end michellins at a Tire Kindom that I have do business with for 25 years and I always get a good price.

The tires were W rated not V and the cost for 4 was $800 so the RL tires will be more. The Tech package cost $4K for the radar and the pax tires & rims and I bet the radar was $1K or a little more.

Jim

Jackzilla

I believe you're grossly underestimating the added cost of Adaptive Cruise Control and the CMBS Brake system. These two options where they're even available (Lexus and Mercedes) add a minimum of $2850. BMW charges $2400 just for adaptive cruise -- no anti-collision braking seems to be offered on Bimmers.

That (based on today's prices) would have put the premium for the PAX wheel/tire combination at $1150 -- and some of that added cost has to go for modifications to the computer electronics associated with the PAX system. Not, in my opinion, really that excessive for a wheel/tire combination offering (however nebulous they turned out to be) some real ride, handling, safety and convenience benefits. Some of the customized wheels and premium tire options offered by Lexus, MB and BMW cost considerably more and involve nothing more than a different set of wheels and tires -- the tires, perhaps, offering superior handling, but certainly not longer wear.

Whether the PAX tires actually will impact RL resale value is really questionable, I think. There are so many other factors that may effect resale, where the RL is concerned, that I think the PAX issue will be negligable.

However, based on the fact that most used car dealers seem to be completely unaware of what special equipment some auto models featured, when new, I doubt that PAX tires will have much impact on trade-in or resale value. I have yet to see a used RL with A-Spec wheels which the dealer makes even a reference to the fact that it features "special custom wheels and tires".

JimA

You are using the retail selling price of the radar system on the other cars of $2850 & $2400, I can assure you that the markup on accessories is huge and probably around 50% so I stand by my estimate of the radar cost being about $1000.

JimA

Jackzilla

That's true, but I was comparing them to the retail price add-on for the Tech package on the RL -- so it shold be apples-to-apples. Obviously, the additional cost for the PAX wheel/tire combo, to the manufacturer, is not that great, especially when it's only in the cost over and above that of the conventional wheels and tires normally supplied.

The big issue with PAX, in my view, still remains availability of service facilities -- the number is not going to grow so sticking with PAX will do nothing but create headaches when service or replacements are needed.
Jack

JimA

Go to the following address

http://www.collegehillshonda.com/hon...-depax-kit.htm

Go half way down page and click on

Complete Letter from American Honda

It makes for interesting reading.

Jim

Chas2

So JimA, what have you done with your PAX tires? Have you purchased a spare kit just in case?

JimA

The Honda Kit doesn't fit an RL and the Acura nor myself can find a "Honda" approved spare tire kit.

Jim

Chas2

The kit was available for at least six months at a reduced rate to all RL PAX owners. You were also given rights, under the class action, until Jan 10, 2010 to claim $110 in rebate on that kit, or if you had bought it independently of the Acura offering. Your dealer should know about it, but should and actual are two different stories.

IIRC, the kit retailed for $535, which is a steal compared to the retail price, or even discounted internet part prices, because you still have to buy the spare tire itself.

Here is evidence that the kit exists.

http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/AI/BJA41918.pdf

JimA

Thanks for the Info, my Acura dealer doesn't seem to be able to find it. However the price of $535 is way out of line when compaired to the less than $300 for the Honda equalivent which is probably still overpriced.

Jim

Jackzilla

Best (lowest cost) bet for an RL mini-spare is the auto salvage yards and their hotline. By now there should be an ample number of RLs that are salvage. Any standard model RL from 2005-2008 is a potential spare assembly (wheel AND tool insert) donor. Cost will probably be the only issue, but from what I've seen lately around $200 - 250. seems to be the asking rate. Haggling is usually the name of the game here so I'd expect you could do better on an actual transaction -- after all there aren't likely to be huge numbers of people looking for RL spares and ONLY an RL owner is a prospect for one of these spares. Good luck.
Jack

Chas2

absolutely. the salvage yard is the best route. The other parts are very cheap in comparison to the wheel and tire.

JimA

Thanks Jack, I'll give that a try.