This topic may have to move to another area, but peripherally bears on the RL replacement. The Tokyo Motor Show starts Oct 26.

While the Acura NSX delays are old news, can we read into this that the delay of the whole brand in Japan means a delay of the RL replacement as well? Three or more years of the RL with a MMC in between?

http://news.en.autos.sympatico.msn.c...mentid=5319425

Next NSX and Acura Brand Launch in Japan Delayed
Gears Will Turn Again After 2010

Canadian Auto Press

This year's Tokyo Motor Show will once again be a star-studded unveiling of some of the most important sports cars for 2008 and beyond. The established rivalry of Subaru and Mitsubishi will be ignited once again with the showing of the Impreza WRX STI and the long-awaited Lancer Evolution, while enthusiasts far and wide will be treated to the latest chapter in the history of the Nissan GT-R. There's even a chance that Toyota's luxury division, Lexus, might show up with the production version of its V10-powered LF-A supercar, the one that’s promising to land Japan on the map in the battle for top supercar. Whatever else may be on the bill, there's one vehicle that won't be showing up for sure - the next-generation Acura (Honda) NSX.

The return of Honda to the supercar stage has been long and laboured since the demise of the NSX in 2005. After teasing enthusiasts with the sharky, mid-engine, rear-wheel drive Honda HSC concept in 2003, the production version never materialized. Instead, it was followed up with a front engine, V10-powered rear-wheel drive vehicle called the Advanced Sports Car Concept launched in January at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit. Part of what might have created the delay was the lukewarm response to the vehicle's design, which might’ve instigated a redesign, requiring extra time for development. Honda's officials haven't set a date for when the car will be ready (they never have, even from the start), so it's logical to think that they'll bring it out when it's ready – we’re now hearing it could be 2010, or perhaps even late 2011.

Another blow for Honda's performance car faithful is the delay of the Acura brand for its home market of Japan. The American-based luxury division might be doing well in North America, Hong Kong and Mexico, but Honda has been reluctant to expand the brand into other markets, unlike Toyota's Lexus or Nissan's Infiniti, the latter of which is preparing to launch into Europe in the coming year. Originally, Honda was supposed to introduce the Acura brand into its home country in the fall of 2008, but this looks to be delayed until around 2010. Honda cites the fact that the company would benefit more from reworking its current dealer network in Japan. Despite claims that the car isn't ready to be launched as it isn't complete, Honda may want to wait for the Acura brand to be ready before revealing it.

Two of the most hoped for criteria in Honda’s expansion might not be arriving, but this hasn’t stopped Honda from growing where it needs to. The Japanese giant, as pragmatic now as it always has been, will instead focus on R&D and production of small, fuel-efficient automobiles such as the next-generation Fit, due next year.

 

I will be surprised if they have a major change to the RL before the minimum 5 year cycle is up.
The RL is truely a super car in its class, go drive others now that you have owned the RL, you will see what I am talking about.
And if anyone drives a sport model of something else and needs better handling, get the A-Spec suspension for the RL, it really takes the car up another level or two.

 

This is not a repost, but is definitely old news.

Only Honda knows whether the next Legend/RL is delayed. I personally hope for the refit next model year....the RL is such a good car (sales notwithstanding) that I can't wait to see what's up Acura's sleeve.

 

NO NO NO! NOT YET! I am NOT ready!

I love this RL too much to be woo'd to another.

2 years for a new model. And I'll buy a year later if it tempts me.
But if not, I can see me sticking with this model awhile.

When I was in Japan, I did catch wind of Honda / Acura brand overlap discussions. But nothing was specifically said. I would assume there is acknowledgement to differentiate the Honda and Acura brands before launching Acura in new markets. But there is still too much cross branding between models. Perhaps the new models in the pipleline will allow them to better suit either particular brand?

And from reports I keep reading, Honda as a brand wants to focus on efficient vehicles. The LEGEND is too much car for the Honda brand. LEGEND / RL may become and Acura brand exclusive. Perhaps THEN Acura can assert more into the model that will appeal to the flagship benchmarks so inflexible in the North American market.

Time will tell. Honda keeps the cards close.

 

just a thought, maybe the launch in japan was delayed so japan would have the enitre new line of acura's instead of having the 3rd gen TL, TSX, rdx and 2nd gen RL and MDX for a year, then moving up to the 3rd gen rl, 4th gen tl, 2nd gen tsx.

 

New article on the future of Acura can only bode well for the RL (I hope)

"For starters, Acura, says Mendel, is being positioned to be closer to BMW and Audi in their sporty performance, than the plusher “country club” Lexus and Mercedes. “But even within that perceptual map, there’s an area that’s even more sport and more luxury that holds an opportunity for us. You can have both. They’re not mutually exclusive,” he explains...

"In the future, performance will mean a V10 engine. It also could mean clean diesel engines for larger Acura sedans (a clean diesel already is rumored for a future Honda Accord). It could mean rear-drive architecture. Mendel doesn’t talk specifics."

Interesting read.

http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/09/...-john-men.html

Another article It talks about the RDX, MDX, TSX, TL and NSX and unfortunately, has no mention of the RL.

"Our goal is to move Acura into a Tier 1 luxury brand," John Mendel, who was promoted to executive vice president of automobile operations of American Honda Motor Co. this year, told Edmunds' AutoObserver.com.

"Next year at this time, you will have a pretty good idea of the direction we're heading," Mendel assures. "You will not see a big bang — as if suddenly it was this and now it isn't. Rather, you'll start to see vehicles roll out in the 2008 calendar year with not so much styling differences but technology and philosophy differences."

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=122681

 

I'm not surprised about the NSX delay. Out of all the upcoming concepts from the competition (i.e. GTR, LF-A) the NSX prototypes have been pretty uninspiring. There's really no need to rush a Halo car in the first place.

As to the RL, it's arguably too soon for a replacement since the RL has only been around since 2005. Given the average product cycle of most manufacturers, the RL still has another good 2 to 3 years before a replacement. What they could do instead is a model year refresh or a higher version. An RL-S would be interesting.

 

I'm holding out hope for a RWD, V-10 powered, 4 door sedan with a standard manual transmission offered. Keep the dimensions tidy and put some properly sticky tires on the car for once and that would definitely be near the top of my list of potential vehicles in the future.

As much as I enjoy driving my family's RL, it is definitely geared more towards the technology side of things, which isn't necessarily bad, but the bias has resulted in compromises in some of the other areas in order to meet the price point. I really want to see Acura introduce a proper balls-to-the-wall RWD upper mid-size or large sedan with a full-on manual transmission option. Keeping my fingers crossed for that one.

 

So according to Mendel, Acura DOES want to compete with the top luxury brands...

For all those who keep maintaining that Acura is happy where they are at in the "budget" luxury segment and that they are a "niche" brand, this should clear up any of that.

 

I agree. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I'd argue there's nothing wrong with the RL. The problem is the brand. Fix the brand image and make someone willing to spend $50k on an Acura. Take this car, slap a BMW badge on it, and put it in a BMW showroom for the same price (V6 and all!), and you'd sell a bizillion of them. It ain't the car!

Having said that, be careful what you wish for. That Edmunds article a few posts before this indicates Acura is ready to move this brand to the next level over the coming few years. That will cost money. Prices will be going up as the image goes up. Right now I feel Acura's sell at a good 10% discount to Lexus (pound for pound). That will no doubt vanish. They'll always be able to crush the value of the European cars but Acura might not be the DUH decision (to use another manufacturers term) in a few years.

 

In my opinion, actions speak louder than words. I think that is Acura really want to go upscale, we would see it in the cars. However, I just don't see it in the cars yet. You still have mostly FWD cars based on Honda's global mid-sized platform. If Acura wants to really go upscale and compete with Infiniti and others, they need to move to RWD cars that are on a separate platform. Also, where is the Acura full-sized flagship? That's right, there isn't one. We have a luxury brand that lacks a full-sized luxury car. When these changes are made and are available for sale, then I'll believe Acura wants to compete.

 

I agree that actions speak louder than words, which is why the Acura brand is where they are, because their actions do not reflect what they say.

There are a few here who think Acura is happy with their brand positioning and are a "niche" brand, which is why I quoted Mendel...to show them that even Acura doesn't agree with what they think.

 

The sad part is that Acura has so much potential. in 2004, Acura was the 4th biggest-selling luxury brand, right behind Mercedes. I wonder where they are now, especially with most of Acura's models' sales decreasing.

 

I totally agree they must fill out the product line with a full size sedan. That's a huge whole making it hard to take them serious against BMW, Lexus, etc. Infiniti has the same problem.

But I'm not so sure I agree with this constant drum beating about RWD. It might be important to 20 and 30 something year olds who have a "go fast" mentality and are still filled with piss and vineger. But, I don't believe that's going to be their core market if they venture upstream. They've already gotten rid of their sub 30k market. That gets rid of MOST 20 somethings. They continue to move upstream and the vast majority of their customers will be 40+. I think sticking with an AWD strategy is a fine one (even if torque distribution is FWD biased). As long as pricing is competitive it ADDS value rather then takes it away for the people who have moved on from that point in their lives.

 

A MMC should include A-Spec suspension, upgraded electronics, like the 2008 MDX HFL, which allows direct bluetooth phone directory transfers, but mostly, if nothing else....

a new 6 or 7 speed transmission which would really make the car sing. Shorter 1-4 or 1-5 gears would be able to harness a lot more performance, while still maintaining the long crusing legs. Also need to change the software to make the gear changes faster, and maybe do something with the paddle shifters so - and + are always on the same side of the steering column, instead of constantly turning with the steering wheel.

 

I agree that most don't NEED a RWD car, but you do NEED a RWD based car to be perceived as playing on the same field as a BMW.

Period.

If not you're always going to get the "nice car, but" , or "still can't run with a 5 series" comment from the auto mags, and a lot of people put stock in that.

Let's face it, for as much as I love the SH-AWD system in the RL, I REALLY have to push it in order to notice the advantages, and I don't drive that way on a daily basis. Would a FWD layout have worked for me? Sure. But the AWD is nicer.

 

I agree RWD is important to the mag writers but do they represent the majority of car buyers or just the majority of the mag readers? I think it's the later. That's why so many of us get confused by how much emphasis they put on V8's and 0 to 60 times. Thery're not stupid. They talk about this shit because it's important to those who buy their magazine, not necessarily the majority who buy cars. For that matter, how many car buyers read C&D, MotorTrend, etc, and what's the demographics on those readers. I'd bet a lot of money it's teens, 20, and 30 somethings. I think most middle America car buyers are more inclined to read Consumer Reports for info on their next car rather then a car mag.

Case in point; my sister just bought a BMW 750Li. Paid $85,000 for it and had no idea anything about the power train. I know because I asked her (as a test). She said I think it has a 3.6 She had no idea. She didn't buy the car because it had a 4.8L DOHC v8 with a 6AT. She didn't buy it because it had RWD. She bought it because she thought it went well with her wardrobe and made a statement. FYI: As you could guess, my sister doesn't read C&D. I think she's more representative of BMW buyers then those reading C&D.

Once again, I'll beat this drum until people start hearing it. It's not the car. It's the brand. Syncronize the brand image with the kind of cars you are trying to sell and life will be much easier for the RL.

 

But you don't need a RWD layout to be perceived as playing on the same field as Audi, which has AWD (and soon to be torque vectoring AWD) across its entire line. Acura's competing against more than MB and BMW, and let's face it, Acura is closer to Audi than BMW in terms of sales and perception. I agree with Mikey - RWD is a must-have for the car mags and the sub-40 year old enthusiasts (and those who don't live in cold-weather climates). And Acura and Honda lack the resources to attack every single complaint about the cars relative to every competitor in one fell swoop. Changing the brand perception is a long-term proposition. The next TL will be the first step, with the RL and NSX after that.

 

I agree with these points as to how they would add to the RLs perception and rank among the competitors. The ante is continually upped. The market perception drives the end product.

But when I look at why the RL appeals to me, especially over my former TL, it was the smoothness of the shifts, and linear feel in acceleratiion. I read that was the intended tunning of the RL including the tranny response and gearing. So fo me, they did succeed. (And yet I dislike the CVTs I have experienced).

Then I think about the 6+ speed tannies in the Toyota / Lexus models in my family. In some cases, they do give better mpg, yet I am not unhappy with the RL economy. BUT I do notice that the extra gears on the tanny cause more noticable, more frequent shifts and they regulary hunt for gears in everyday driving and traffic crawling. This gets pretty herky jerky and irriates me. Similar to my gripe with the TL's tranny tuning / throttle response...lurch - brake - lurch. And plenty has been said of tranny issues there (2 failures in my family in 2 new models)

I recognize the extra gears, edgey throttle and gearing bring better numbers in the performance sprints...but I rarely drive that way. And those attributes are not how I spend the majority of my time / drive with the RL. For daily commuting, occaisional cruising, sometimes spirited runs and often crawling traffic driving is what my real life dictates The RL offers up perfectly. I had more performance with the TL, but it could not deliver the performance, nor the smoothness in real life.

In order to make those attribute competitve for the market mentality, I would hope the real world attributes I love about the RL are not lost. I would hate to buy another Acura that looks good on paper, but gives me a stiff neck and loose fillings to justify the acclaim of winning the current ante up game. And yet I still want SHAWD, reasonable economy, tech features galore, spohistication, refinement and build quality to hold it all together.

If it takes Acura a few more years to achieve that...I will patiently wait while enjoying my 06 RL.

 

Why does Acura want to be in the same field as Audi? Acura sells more cars than Audi does. Also, Acura has more brand recognition in the US than Audi does. If anything, Acura needs to go after #1 and #2, which are Lexus and BMW.

Your average luxury car driver doesn't know the difference between FWD and RWD. However, most luxury car drivers are influenced by early adopters, and THEY know the difference. The early adopters are the ones who read car magazines and the car magazines will continue to treat Acura as "Nice cars, but. . . " as long as the cars are FWD based. Look at Caddy's resurgence due to the RWD CTS.

Acura probably makes more money per unit by using the pre-existing, FWD-based global mid-sized platform. However, Acura will never be taken seriously as a true luxury car brand unless they put their cars on a separate platform.

 

THAT I do agree with.

 

... and I'll say this again. I saw a new CTS in the parking lot the other day. That car has seriously got my attention. If the reliability holds out, that might be a car I seriously look at when the time comes (in the very distant future) for me to replace my RL.

 

jhr3, I can't argue the car would handle better and be more balanced with a FR configuration. But, you loose me when you start talking in such absolutes; Acura will never be taken seriously unless they have a separate platform from Honda, have a RWD system, etc. You're talking like a gear head and someone who reads car magazines. Do you realize you represent 5% of the car buying public. If they woried about making you happy they'd go broke.

BMW doesn't sell all those cars because they have a RWD . They sell all those cars because they have spent 80 years building a brand that is recognizable in the price range they market. Acura just doesn't have that for the $50k market just like VW didn't have it for the Phaeton. IMO, all this talk about RWD, low end torque, it's all blah blah blah for 95% of the car buyers.

It's fun to discuss among us (who care), but we have remember we are not the majority of the car buyers. That's just a fact. When we start wanting to give Acura advise on how to appeal to the masses, I fear our perspective is just to narrow, no matter how open minded we think we are being.

 

The problem with brand perception is that unless you distance yourself away from the parent brand more, you will always have the perception of being just an extension of that brand.

One of the reasons that Lexus has managed to succeed is that it distanced the majority of its products away from Toyota. As a result, it built up its own unique brand image. The fact that they presented a completely difference service experience didn't hurt them in the least, either.

While I agree that most buyers don't know the different between platforms and drive trains, the unfortunate reality is that those same buyers also associate their purchase with personal perceptions. Sure 85% of buyers look to get a V6 model of a car that has an optional V8, but the perception to most buyers is that they basically bought the same car as the V8 and the perception to their neighbors will be that they bought a nice car.

It is the unfortunate reality that we are a society so obsessed with how we appear to people that we allow it to guide our decisions instead of rational thought. If you want to succeed in this market, you need to play the game.

 

You are so right about needing to distance Acura more from Honda. You get it. Does Honda get it? We'll see in the next 2 years

 

It's interesting...the longer I sit in my business school courses, the more I recognize both what Acura does well (engineering, cost management, supply chain management) and what it does poorly (strategic vision, marketing, target market selection) and a lot of the mistakes are somewhat elementary problems that should be easily recognizable to someone who has spent anytime reading a business magazine or two. Some days I wonder if the ties to Honda are just too tight for them to make the changes that are needed to get Acura to be fully successful.

 

You're very right. It's hard to see both sides. As an engineer who started his own business later in life, I tend to see both sides fairly well but still not as good as someone who's brain is wired for more left-brain thinking.

Maybe Honda is run using a "promote from within" philosophy. It's a common practice in companies who have a strong sense of community and shared core values. If they are, they need to stop promoting successful engineers into higher key management roles. Good engineers don't necessarily make good leaders (and vice versa)

 

From recent articles on the NSX and its V-10 power, does this mean an RL with something other than a V-6 is further away than expected? The article below is from leftlanenews.com. That, in combination with another article posted yesterday on Car and Driver which concentrates on the NSX speculates the pushback of the worldwide Acura rollout to 2010 is due to the delay in the NSX.

If, in typical conservative Honda fashion, they wait to see how the V-10 does, before rolling out to other models, what does that mean for the RL? At least they say a 6 speed auto is in the works...

Acura could skip V8s, introduce V10s

Honda's Acura division has long been criticized for not offering V8 powertrains on any of its luxury or sports cars. But rather than producing a V8 to rival Lexus and BMW, Acura is considering skipping V8s all together and opting for V10 power instead.

John Watts, product planning manager for Acura America told Automotive News his company will test the waters with a V10 in the next NSX. If that goes well, there's a good chance V10s will end up in other Acuras, too.

"That's the plan,” Watts said. “We'll see how people react to a 10 in the sports car and maybe move from there. Maybe instead of using V8s, we'll take the next step up and go to V10s," he said.

V10s are usually reserved for ultra-expensive sports cars, with the BMW M5 and M6 being the least expensive mainstream vehicles to feature V10 motors. But Acura could conceivably use less powerful ten-cylinder engines in its more premium models, including front-engine coupes and sedans.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/acura-co...uces-v10s.html

 

I don't know what to make of that article. They've dragged their feet with offering a 8cyl and now they would consider skipping the 8 and going directly to 10?

I mean, was this guy just day dreaming out loud or are they seriously considering it? I think it's the first possibility (daydreaming). However, it still makes you wonder if anyone over there has a clear vision what they want Acura to be?

 

The key word is "MAYBE" in this key phrase, which is what the product planning manager is quoted as saying. It sounds, reading that, like V8s might be in the pipleline now and if there is a positive response to the V10, then they'd make the switch from V8 s to V10s later.

Sounds like GOOD news to me, either way.

 

But Acura already thinks that they are doing that. I've read the posts about Acura and luxury cars. In the mind of Honda, the Acura is a luxury Honda, and so they are not concerned as much with competing against other cars that are perceived as luxury.

Observation - as a member of SEMA (the big car show in Las Vegas every November) I get there news letters and with few exceptions, the Honda is moving to greener cars. They are planning on a direct injected diesel 4 banger that gets great power and greater mileage. However, most anything with Acura talks about how it differentiates in upscale components from the Honda line while still being symbiotic. A bid thing with Honda is the trickle down from better fancier cars theory. It would take peanuts to put the RL NAV system in all the Honda line, but that won;t happen until the RL as a fancier NAV system

Honda sees Acura as "their" step up from everyday Hondas to the luxury benefits of Acura. They do not see Acura as a luxury brand compared to most of the other cars.

If you look at Acura and Honda, they put a lot into one package with few options, because their customer base likes that. To change to the many submodel RL (V10 versus V6, RWD versus AWD, NAV or not, etc.) goes directly against what got them to be such an industry leader and innovator. They are not going to change that just to create a a flagship luxury car competitor. They will stick with their tried and true customer base - the people on this board.

If you look at their goals from another perspective, they are saying "If you want more than the Accord, go check out the Acura".

I can't remember a single commercial where Acura tries to say the are anything more than an upscale Honda.

Unless or until the powers that be at Acura "SEE" themselves as a segment of the whole luxury market, they will continue to build for Honda owners, not the rest of the world who wants a dozen bells and whistles. Yes they are a niche market and all of us who have Hondas and Acuras are enamored of that niche.

I remember being completely disappointed taht the MDX did not fit my idea of a luxury 'Pilot". It is a great SUV, but it is the second Acura (RDX being the first) that I felt that Honda/Acura did not understand me as a loyal buyer. Yes, we buy goodies to make it go a littel faster or ride a little different, but we a re loyal Honda/Acura people. All my cars since 1976 have been either Honda or Acura (the Tahoe was used)

Maybe the powers that be are still in the 70s and 80s and don't see the mind set of those who are in their twenties. Maybe they still build for old farts like me that like a high quality machine that comes with bells and whistles I like. I can honestly say that if Acura becomes a BMW like company, then I will stop buying cars from them. If I wanted a BMW or MB, then that's what I'd go buy.

IMHO, get used to Acura being a "less than MB, BMW, etc.) until they 'want' to be a contender in the luxury market and I don't see that on the horizon.

Just my long winded

 

It looks pretty much like the new Accord has the RL Nav system