SPUDMTN

We all know that the RL is not selling quite as well as was hoped. So what went wrong? The goods are there--the RL is an incredible car, and this is not just thought by Acura/Honda fanboys. The car has received mass praise from nearly every publication that has evaluated it. So what's the problem? Why are dealers having to move them off lots at enormous discounts? Why isn't the car selling well enough?

I'm wondering if the product has not been advertised/marketed well enough...the RL has been off the radar of many midsize lux buyers for four or five years now and now needs to get back on there.

What are your thoughts?

msu79gt82

I purchased my first Acura in March '01 - a first year MDX. Even at MSRP I considered it a "best-bang-for-the-buck" vehicle and later traded it for another MDX (an '04). I've also owned an '02 TL-S; it too in my opinion was a "best-bang-for-the-buck" sedan. To me and many other people Acura offered an very nice combination of quality and value.

But as hard as I try, I can not bring myself to consider the RL a good value in the sense my MDX is and TL-S was. It doesn't even have a backup camera for crying out loud!! I have no interest in OnStar at all and NavTraffic is an expensive gimmick - to me (and thats all that matters in MY car buying decision process). The first year QC issues doesn't help at all either. Also the very fact that it is not selling well and are stacked up on the dealer lots gives one reason to pause and take a long hard look - probably harder than they would have otherwise.

My dealer told me back in March that they weren't selling well and that he could make me a deal. While at first I was very interested, it did make me wonder and to research deeper; what I found was QC issues, missing features, and intense competition! That too is an issue - the competition is fierce in the $45+ Luxury Performance Sedan market.

Bottom line: nice car, but nothing spectacular. It does not fit my image of "value" that Acura is supposed to be.

DJDZ

I definitely beleive that its really all about the image that Acura has protrayed over the years. They have been very successful in terms of sales but mainly in the "entry level" luxury car market. Thus you can see record sales in the TL and TSX. Acura emphazises value for the money. However, the market for the higher end luxury cars are not necessarily looking for a good value but more about prestige, image portrayed to others, and luxury brand recognition. The people that shell out $50K plus for a car want to buy a true luxury brand and unfortunately, Acura has never portrayed themselves as a true luxury car brand but rather a high end extension of Honda. Thus, RL sales have suffer in this market even though it is an excellent machine. In summary, if you are smart, you will buy the RL because it is an excellent value for all that you get. If you have an ego, you will buy for image and name brand instead regardless of value.

msu79gt82

I agree to a point. Image buyers will prefer MB and BMW to any Japanese brand. Thats the only way to explain MB and BMW sales despite reliability issues. I also agree that many Acura owners perceive the brand to be one that "emphazises value for the money" {best-bang-for-the-buck as I said above}.

However I disagree that smart buyers will get an RL because it offers excellent value. Because to many buyers like me - it doesn't!! The RL is missing too many luxury feartures found on other cars of this class - e.g. cooling seats, backup camera, laser cruise, etc. It does offer SH-AWD, OnStar, and NavTraffic - but I could care less about OnStar and NavTraffic. Other than SH-AWD what does the RL offer that can't be gotten elsewhere? And if Acura thinks folks will snap up RLs for the SH-AWD alone, obviously they were wrong.

NorCalRL

msu79gt82,

As you wrote in your earlier message,

"I have no interest in OnStar at all and NavTraffic is an expensive gimmick - to me (and thats all that matters in MY car buying decision process)."

Your criteria is perfect for your buying decision.

Those of us who have made our buying decision based on our own criteria are no more right or wrong than you.

I consider myself to be a smart buyer and I consider the RL to be an excellent value.

You are welcome to your opinion of what constitutes a luxury car.

In my opinion when the other luxury car makers start to offer Bose noise reduction in their cars along with NavTraffic and SH-AWD, I'll take a serious look at them.

In the meantime, THEY are missing the features that I find important.

Regards,

Dave

msu79gt82

Excuse me, I thought the Thread Topic was "What's the logic on slow RL sales" NOT "Why did I buy an RL"

No need to get so defensive, I was merely answering the Thread Topic's question.
RL sales ARE slow and disappointing. Acura would do well to listen to those who chose not to buy an '05 RL.

GIBSON6594

THere is also some serious competition for the RL...M35, 5 series, A6, GS, E-class. Those cars are no joke and tough to compete with. Lets face it, Acura doesn't have the name that these are cars have.

hemants

Accord styling plain and simple

Rob L

you mean couldn't care less. sorry, just a pet peeve of mine when people put down could care less when they eman couldn't.

I personally would think the sh-awd and material quality of the car (which is top notch) should matter more than things like a silly backup cam and laser cruise but that's just me. I dont get the backup cam thing some get orgasmic about btu then again, my driving use never requires me to back up more than twice a day: out of my driveway which makes a backup cam useless as I have eyes to see if anything is going to be behind the car and then once inot my parking spot near work which again I can see whatever is there. As for laser cruise...having used it I dont think it is that great a feature unless it has drastically improved in its response in the last 4 years. Problem with laser cruise (from what I have used) is if the car needs to really brake you have to do the braking so wtf does it add to the experience?

Oh and the RL has cooling seats...just not in the U.S.

The RL is a good value seeing as the ONLY sedan in the class that can be similarly equipped for less is the M35x. ONLY CAR out of all the rest. That says something to me and easily says the RL is a great value.


The reaosn the RL hasnt sold well is IMO simple...people dont see Acura the same way they do Lexus, BMW, MB, etc so they have no clue that this car offers a great package. I dont think styling is the reason. I have yet to meet one person in "real life" who doesnt think the car looks nice.

taitando

A lot of things that people have mentioned ring true. Brand value/recognition is not on the same level as the Germans, let alone Lexus. But another idea mentioned in other forums is the fact that there is only one RL, with one engine choice, that is supposed to be everything for everyone. This is impossible, as seen here, most people enjoy the ability to pick and choose. In most of Acura's offerings, you get a car with tons of features including nav, or you get a car with tons of features without nav (i.e. TL, TSX, MDX). With the RL, you don't even get that choice. In addition to this, Acura is trying to play in a field where all of its competitors are offering V8 options (M45, GS430, E500, 545i). It's true, the RL should be compared to V6 counterparts (M35x, GS300AWD, etc...), but this class demands that a V8 be an option, especially since the RL is Acura's flagship sedan.

hondamore

Rob is correct. The main reason for RL's not jumping off the lots is the fact that the average consumer still views Acura as "just a fancy Honda". Combined with Honda's efforts for the past decades to be "the affordable family car", they are now finding it difficult to convince buyers to spend $50,000 on a Honda. The result is that those high-end buyers who are looking for a status symbol are looking elsewhere.
Acura deliberately priced the RL too high because they wanted it to act as a flagship and they were attempting to elevate the Acura brand name. This experiment has not been successful, just as it was not successful in the mid-90's when Honda tried to jack the price of the Legend to compete with Lexus.
That said, anyone who says that the RL is not a great value at $42,000 (or less) is mistaken. At it current pricing levels, the RL represents an amazing Bang-for-the-buck value.

NorCalRL

Absolutely agree.

As with all car sales we're dealing with a combination of perception and reality.

If Acura wanted to compete with Infinity and Lexus they should have four choices:

Rear wheel drive stripped V6 & V8
All-wheel drive loaded V6 & V8.

That would allow a lower entry price, which is perceived as a less expensive car. In reality, when you add on all the features to build the car available today, the total price is higher, as in the case of the M35.

Having a V8 version with all-wheel drive would take sales from both Infinity and Lexus, who only offer this combination with 6 cylinder engines.

The V8 version would make the reviewers drool as well as the people on the sidelines who are enamoured with 0-60 times. Even if this only represented 10% of the sales it creates an image (perception again) that this is a car capable of running with the big dogs. The reality of a low MPG rating shouldn't deter them.

This is the typical bait-and-switch tactics that have been used for years with the "halo cars" that are reviewed so highly, but make up less than 10% of actual sales.

It's time for Acura to step up to "modern" marketing and put a V10 in one copy of the RL and let the reviewers take it for a spin.

Dave

Rob L

Good point...the RL comes loaded and there are some people who seem to just buy base version of cars to save the money but have the "prestige" of whatever car it is they are buying ie BMW buyers. Some are most likely turned off by there only being the one "loaded" trim level for the RL and may find some of the features useless for them so they go to a BMW where you have to basically add on every feature. They would rather have a base RL for say 10 grand less than a loaded one regardless of whether the car loaded is a good deal. I can easily see why some would be turned off by this but for me, it was one of the things I really liked as I like my cars loaded with every feature they can have.

I dont think the lack of V8 choice is that big of a deal contrary to what car enthusiasts online seem to say it is. Most people who can afford to buy cars in this range dont really care what size the engine is as long as it has prestige which Acura lacks compared to the other luxo brands. I simply base my opinion on the sheer fact that for every V8 competitor sedan in this class I see there are about 6 V6 versions of the same model. Same goes for the entry level luxury sedan market where the weaker engined 3 series cars on the road outnumber the top engine versions 8-1. I see 325s ALL THE TIME but harld ever 330s.

So yeah, the lack of V8 engine choice may turn some off I doubt it is a big negative for most.

What Acura should have done is slap the hybrid into the 06 RL but I guess that would have pissed off many of us 05 buyers but damn, they would have easily picked up big sales for 06 had they slapped the hybrid system into it and kept the price around the same level meaning maybe a couple grand more.

I still fail to see how the RL even at its MSRP isnt a great deal when again, the only model in its class that offers the same stuff for around the same price is the M. Maybe my definition of what constitutes a deal is diff than many.

Fatalvenom

Very simply put, Acura isn't a status-whore car. Period. The 3 people that I have met with an RL are extremely pleased with their cars, and its not because they can't afford a new 545i, they bought one for their spoiled wives who want to be just like their friends at the tennis club. They instead bought an RL because they liked what they saw and test drove and bought it because they believe it is a great car. One example is a gentlemen I met through work who owns a 2005 white RL on the chrome 18"'s, he told me he absolutely loves that car and he will not be selling it for a good period of time. He has owned a couple of car dealerships that sold Ferraris, Lambos, Aston Martin etc. so you know he had a few for himself before. He also just got his name on the list to buy the new Bentley 4-Door that looks like the Connti. GT which he says he will drive, "rarely", but he will continue to drive his RL daily because he likes it that much.

Then there is me, 23 years old and live in a very affluent area in South Florida. Most of my friends mommies and daddies bought them BMW's and MB's in high school and as college grad presents. I now make enough money to buy a friggin Jaguar XJR and be in the giant pissing contest that is luxury cars. I choose not to do that, not because my funds are limited, but because I know that there is a car that does everything everyother brand does so well, and its under 50K.

Other than the easiest cop-out which is no V8, how is the RL sub-par compared to the others?? The interior materials I think are better than the GS(I hate that dry lake bed dashboard), the wood looks lightyears better than that horrid wood in the M35/45, it has a way more modern look than either the 5-series or the bland E-350/500, and it handles better than all of them IMO. It also has all the essential things like a great audio system and all the little things that the other cars have that are of use. To me, if you need a backup camera, its time to hang-up the keys and get a new set of glasses or contacts. Laser Cruise, I perfer to do that myself thank you. Not to mention I tested those "cooling" seats on a nice July day down here in South Florida. Lets just say nice try Infinity, Lexus, and MB.....but try testing them down here instead of New York on a crisp November evening. So tell me how it is sub-par ????

NorCalRL

I don't see why anyone would take offense to that.

I found that I had the same reaction to the M35/45 wood dash. It looked exactly like Contact paper. The good news is that you could repair any damage for 79 cents and a visit to Home Depot.

This is of course my opinion and not the opinion of this forum, any sponsors or contributors. Your mileage may vary. This offer only available Monday thru Friday 9:00 AM to 4:00 PM. License number available on request. Typographic errors may be corrected after printing. Customers much wear shoes and shirts to be served.

SeCsTaC

big to that

1HOT NSX

¡BRAVO! I could not have said it better. I agree with you 100%.

The RL is a magnificent car that handles better than anything out there (4 doors of course, my NSX handles better) including the BMW 5 series. Before I bought mine I tested anything and everything between 40 and 65 grand and I fell in love with the RL for the same reasons you mentioned above. There isn't a nicer interior to be found - the BMW interior is down right cheap looking compared to the RL. Styling? Much, much nicer IMO than anything else too - sure, it has an Accord family resemblance just like a Ferrari 430 resembles a Fiat Spider - after all, a Ferrari is just a fancy Fiat.

jhr3uva90

I'm glad somebody introduced this thread. It just so happens that the model year ends this Friday and I assume we will know how the car did for September by Monday or Tuesday.

The first question is, are RL sales really THAT slow? America Honda stated that they had a goal of selling 20,000 RL's in this model year, which ends Friday. So far, they have sold about 17,000 cars. It is highly unlikely that they will make their 20K-unit goal, but I don't think they will be that far off. In fact, I predict the tally will come to about 18,000 units. As of right now, excluding September sales, I believe the new generation RL has toppled the record that the old RL set in MY2000. That's not too bad, especially considering that the new RL costs more than its predecessor.

As to why the RL is not selling even better. . . Well, how many U.S. households can afford to spend $45,000 or more on a car? Take into account that the median household income in the U.S. in 2002 was $43,057 (according to 2002 American Community Survey). Of those households who can acquire a $45K car, how many will opt for an SUV instead of a sedan? Of those who prefer sedans, how many will lease instead of buy? After all, the RL might be a cheaper car to buy an E class Mercedes or some other cars, but the Germans tend to be cheaper to lease. That leaves us with a relatively small pool.

Out of that small pool, how many drivers are "status whores?" I really like that phrase, thanks Fatalvenom. As an earlier poster stated, the Acura brand is associated with vehicles costing less than $40K. It may take a while for the "regular folks" to start associating Acura with expensive cars they way they associate Lexus. You see, while Honda was building Acura cars, Toyota was building a Lexus brand. Now Honda needs to use a similar strategy (Lexus: The Relentless Pursuit by Chester Dawson is a decent book on the subject).

There is a large pool of potential drivers of the 2nd generation RL: the current drivers of the 2nd generation TL. Many of them are displeased with the smaller size and racy styling of the 3rd generation TL. They will be looking for another car in the next few years and hopefully they will have heard enough positive word of mouth from early adopters like us to upgrade to the RL. Until then, let's enjoy the uniqueness of our cars.

phile

Just curious, where are you getting 17K from? According to the link below, Acura has only sold 11,894 RL's up to August of this year.

http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

jhr3uva90

Good question. I'm going by model year, not calendar year. The model year started October 1, 2004. Here are the monthly sales figures I have based on Honda's press releases.

October 1310
November 1941
December 1967
January 1371
February 1412
March 1376
April 1304
May 1404
June 1565
July 1741
August 1721

Fatalvenom

Well if those numbers are accurate, then sales are slowly going up, or am I just seeing things ??

ASP

With all the incentives and great lease offers, Sept will likely be the strongest month.

Fatalvenom

Another point I wanted to bring up is, who cares how the car sells. Look at the M45 they made for a year before they redesigned. Those cars have only lost like 5,000 off of sticker and they got replaced in one year . Infact I like the 1-yr M45 better than the new one, it actually had more power. Well regardless, my point is that so what if not everyone on the block has an RL, who cares if it sells 10,000 units a year. I like cars that not everyone sees everyday. Would a S500 Benz be so "pimp" if it was used as a taxi like in Germany ?? Enjoy your car and take pleasure in the fact that not everyone owns one, it just makes your knowledge of fine cars more apparent to those of us who can see through the badge-barrier.

Rich in NC

Acura didn't launch with with a top line luxury car like Lexus and Infiniti did. They have yet to be recognized as a top line luxury car. Just think of the models Acura has offered. Arguably, not even the original RL was a top line luxury car. They should of launched Acura with a true flagship car.

jhr3uva90

Good point. In my opinion, Acura has never made a flagship similar to the Lexus LS, Audi A8, etc. However, Acura has been very successful for Honda, especially in the last 7 years. Infiniti, on the other hand, has been a money pit for Nissan until recently. In fact, I believe Mr. Goshn (sp) considered shutting down the Infiniti brand when he first took the reins at Nissan. Business is about profits as well as prestige, and I believe the new RL is more profitable per unit than its predecessor and probably more profitable for Honda than the top of the line Q45 has ever been. What's the point of having a true flagship if the car is a massive financial black hole?

SPUDMTN

I have never thought of this before. This definitely has a lot to do with the prestige factor.

Now my question is: did Infiniti benefit from having a true flagship? Is Infiniti looked upon as a more prestigious brand than Acura by the average consumer?

I wonder if any of it has to do with the lack of a strong advertising campaign for the new RL. Infiniti spent TONS on advertising the new M. I wonder if the cost proved to be effective.

[there's some more to chew on]

jhr3uva90

Is Infiniti looked upon as more prestigious than Acura? If you mean among "regular" folks who don't really care about cars, then no. Most folks in middle America don't even think about Infiniti, especially since there aren't that many Infiniti dealerships or cars out there. Infiniti tends to be clustered in the coastal blue states (or blue areas of red states) and has less recognition elsewhere.

You're right, though: Infiniti has a substantial print advertising campaign for the M that makes Acura's push for the RL seem weak. The RL's going to need word of mouth advertising, just like the TL did back in 1999. Or maybe they can take some of the dollars they use advertising the current TL and divert it to the RL.

Bendrover

Look guys,

The RL is one heck of a deal at 41K or lower as some have been able to buy.
We looked at the M45 sport and liked it a little better, but NO WAY IS IT $16,000 + better then the RL!

I gave my wife the pick of ANY car and she picked the RL.

Now I will have to say that I wanted her to get the Maserati Quattroporte. That my friend is hands down the nicest "sadan" out there. After driving it though it is not an easy car for her to drive and she thought it was "to nice".

I drive an 04' Range Rover and the RL offers more "stuff" on it then the Rover!

Don't get me wrong I'm not comparing the two cars, but in some ways the RL is "better" then the Rover

Enjoy whatever car you have.

static808

The slow sales has to do with a few things that have been mentioned on this thread. Ad campaign was weak (lasted like 2 weeks).

Prestige factor. There are many people willing to buy $55,000 BMW 525i's just for the BMW factor. Whats funny is that the 525i comes with cheesy steel wheels and they still buy them. Go figure...

Also, the car has similar dimensions as the TL. This, I believe has hurt the car the most. The TL is geared towards the BMW 3 series, but the car is much longer with the same interior diimensions as a BMW 3. The TL & RL are about 3 inches in difference on the exterior. I believe this was the big problem. People couldn't see why they would spend the extra $12K or so on a AWD car. You can't say its a bigger car. You can't even say its a big "uplift" like people say when they buy a 5 over a 3 series. The car's look too similar in size.

The last thing, I see a significant mid-model-year refresh, say 2007 or 2008 (like Infiniti did for the M). This could be a hybrid with more aggressive accents to the RL lines. Acura has built the best mid-size luxury car. Now they have to sell it a little more..

hothonda

Asking my dealer why he still had so many unsold RL's, his comment was that
Acura has done very little in the way of promotion + I believe he said 21,000 units
were produced for the '05 model year and that was way too many. As I understand
it, for '06 there will be 1/2 that amount.

He also said that seldom do the MB/BMW potential buyers cross-shop the RL...he
feels if those buyers were to compare what the RL offers for $50K and drive the
car, they would sell lots more......

The NSX was a very slow selling car too, but those who took the time to drive
the car usually purchased. I was one of those skeptics until a friend who bought
one urged me to drive one....I did in '94 and bought my 1st of 4 NSX's...it is the
best kept secret in supercars even today. When the next gen car comes, Honda
will again set the standard like they did in 1991!

hemants

Yes Acura has a bit of placement identity crisis.

TSX = size of 3 series

TL = in between 3 and 5

RL = should have been larger than 5, smaller than 7

That way they could have offered a TL with SHAWD for the buyer who wanted a smaller more nimble vehicle.

As it is the RL is smaller than my 02 Type S

static808

hemants, good analysis of the Acura line. If they were to position the RL as you noted, they should have made a hybrid V6 or even a V8. That upper-atomsphere needs the horsepower.

msu79gt82

Yes they are; recent sales numbers reflect below Invoice pricing - a MAJOR disappointment for Acura. This is an interesting thread topic; yet few posts really analyze WHY sales are lower than expected. The topic acknowledges the fact of slow sales and seeks to explain why.

And your point is?? The V6 RL does not compete with the V8 M45. There is a reluctance on the part of many on this board to even acknowledge that a M35x comparably equipped can be gotten for mid $40s and to some folks that offers a better value than the RL does.

hondamore

The M35's ultra cheap looking interior has been mentioned by a few posters in this thread so you should consider that it has been acknowledged. Allow me to echo that opinion. If you feel the M35x is a better value, please go buy one.

msu79gt82

This thread topic is SUPPOSED to be discussing why Acura has to basically give away an RL Clearly those who love the RL (and I have NEVER EVER said it was not a good car!!) and who paid $45k+ really do not care for this threads existence But the fact remains it IS a pertinant question.

The question on the table is WHY Infiniti's ultra cheap interior is OUTSELLING Acura's superior ultra luxury offering!!!

hendjaz

"who paid $45k+"


I think its important to recognize that the low $40K prices we see in this forum are geographically based and not necessarily reflective of the pricing in all areas of the country. I did a small (admittedly) sampling of zip codes at carsdirect and found the low prices in the SoCal region that have been discussed but in the Seattle area the cars direct expected price came up around $47.5K. Other northern areas may be closer to Seattle while southern areas may be closer to the SoCal pricing. Others with more time might want to do a broader sampling to see what the trends are in various areas.

This may be similer to what I encountered in searching for a Lexus RX 400h (hybrid) where prices and waiting lines are quite high in most western and some NE states but they are comparitively available and below msrp in Texas and SE states.

Thus, just because a vehicle is below msrp in certain geographic areas does not mean categorically that there is little demand for the vehicle. Sometimes depends on where you are shopping.

1HOT NSX

There is a scarcity of smart people in the US. I believe the RL is a smart buy and many other vehicles are a dumb buy but plenty of people disagree with me - too many in fact, which makes the RL a poor seller.

Dumb buys in my book are: the guy in my office who bought a GMC Yukon Denali just before gas hit $3 a gallon, all the people who buy Ford Excursions and Hummers, Jaguar S and X types, etc. You never know how people are going to react to advertising and trends - this morning I heard in the news that Pinot Noir is outselling Merlot because of the movie Sideways I am glad that the RL is there for us - smart people - to buy it. If others choose to buy something else that is clearly their loss and I don't have a problem with that. My opinion of course, just my and everyone is welcome to disagree.

NorCalRL

Isn't this the point where someone provides links to the various Infinity bulletin boards to show us lame RL owners what we're missing?

hemants

The M35x has arguably more exciting exterior styling. It is also the fastest of the V6 AWD vehicles in it's class.

When I first saw the RL, I thought Accord rear with RSX headlights...the design guy was close but no cigar - had they stuck with the TSX/TL family resemblance they would have done much better, but then you would have the perceived overlap due to the size issue I mentioned previously.

I think the bottom line is that the RL was designed to be the Japanese Honda Legend and didn't really factor in the Acura line up in North America. It doesn't really fit in but it should.

psteng19

I think you guys pretty much summed it up.

-Lack of prestige (Acura reputation for value)
-No V8
-Size (interior room)
-Accord-ish looks (bland styling)
-FWD platform (FWD biased AWD)
-One-size-fits-all pricing and options
-Price (too high for the Acura brand)
-Lack of features available in other cars
-Tough competition
-Lack of advertising