sailorman

I've had my 2005RL for over a year now...about the only thing I would change about it is to have fold down rear seats for more storage space from the rear. It's my first Honda/Acura and before I never went wild about them....but this is one great driving luxury car....with all the bells and whistles. OK....whenever I see an Infiniti M35X....Audi A6....BMX535....and I see a lot more of them than I do see of the RL....I have second thoughts about having made the right decision....for about a minute or two. But what can any of those cars do better than the RL...and just sit behind the wheel and sink into the most handsome cockpit ....listen to the surround sound....XM radio....OnStar....blue tooth/handsfree....voice activated everything....GPS with real time traffic reports....and blue ambiant nightime lighting. I know that it is aimed at a younger group than me....but this car is everything I could ever want or need. I know that is sounds silly...to be passionate about a Honda/Acura....especially since it is not a flashy looking car...but I leave home at 6AM to go to work....drive 50 miles....leave work at 6PM to go home.... this car has made me look forward to my commute. This being the case....why is Honda/Acura having trouble selling the RL. I live on the North Shore of Long Island...I've seen a few more of them recently...but...there is an epidemic of the M35X and it's cousins. And there are those who will only buy the German A6 or 535X. With the recent report that Acura is #1 in resale value I would think the RL would lead the pack. And the RL is less expensive than all of the others when comparably equipped. What's going on!

GoHawks

I agree. I truly enjoy my commutes.

I think the two biiggest issues are the following.

1. Acura is not viewed as a true luxury marque by those who are brand shopping. In other words peopel who want a Lexis because of the prestige won't even consider looking at an Acura. My opinion is that Acura tends to do better with those who truly look and research the car.
2. Acura service is not consistenly at "Lexus Like" levels.
3. People are still turned off by the fact that it doesn't have a V8, even though most wouldn't get one anyway. (How many V8 Lexus GSs are sold?)

In that order

static808

I drive in NJ, Rt. 287, My '05 RL has 25K miles, some minor rattles here and there, annoying, but overall the car is awesome. I really enjoy the 35+ mile commute each way. I have seen more and more RL's on the road, but too many M35, A6, BMW and E350. I don't feel slighted for buying this awesome machine. The funny thing is that last week a guy in a Mercedes CLS500 came up to me while we were filling up at the local Wawa. Asked about the car's AWD and he looked inside. He told me, "Your interior is much better than mine and the NAV screen is huge" I said thanks....and there you have it...

Qest

For the price, the RL is great. In my opinion, better than its competitors, but comparing it to an 85k Mercedes and choosing the RL is kinda odd.

OK, you can't get 4Matic in a CLS, but you shouldn't buy a CLS if you need AWD.

Plus, the RL looks like an Accord inflated a few extra psi, whereas the CLS is gorgeous!

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

Now the RL is WAY out of my price range but I agree I think they should be selling more of them. I mean I have never driven one but I think there nice looking cars with a lot of features (sat in some at the dealership before). I think people who are looking in that price range should consider the RL but like said earlier its not the statis symbol lexus is. I personally think the RL is a really nice car and wouldnt mind one at all its just way too expensive for me.

jhr3uva90

I agree with GoHawks. The general public does NOT see Acura as a luxury brand. If the MDX had a starting price as high as the RL, Acura would have problems selling it as well. The majority of the drivers out there don't know much about CARS, but they do know brands, and that's what they go for in the "true" luxury ($45K and up) market.

Here's a little anecdote: I was talking to a friend of mine on Thanksgiving. She said to me that she would rather have a Mercedes than a BMW because a Mercedes costs more than a BMW. That is the depth of most U.S. car drivers' knowledge, even if they are generally well educated and successful. Acura has a long uphill climb before the masses even put it on the same level with Lexus. That's too bad.

732xghost

iTrader: (1)

im a CL owner so ill give you guys my 2 cents.

its a beautiful car and has came along way from the 1st gen.

but it still seems like it has trouble competeing with the 5-series, E-class, and lexus ES.

jhr3uva90

Not to be off topic, but here goes: everyone knows that the RL does not get the respect or the sales that it deserves. However, could someone explain to me why the TL's sales are decreasing? It was designed in North America and built in North America specifically for North America? With the exception of 2005, the RL has NEVER been a major seller for Acura, but what's wrong with the TL?

Fredo0709

Hey Sailorman, I just helped my father purchase an '07 RL and she's a wonderful car. We also live near the north shore of Long Island and from his reaction, I can tell that he really enjoys his one hour round trip commute. I live in CT now and only see my parents on the weekends but I helped him research this car, the Lexus GS, and the Mercedes S Class. Ultimately we chose the RL because of the amount of car we are getting for the price. AWD, Surround Sound, great navigation interface... it all adds up to a great driving experience. His dream car is actually the Mercedes AMG S55. When my lease runs out on my current TL in 18 months, I will buy the RL from him while he upgrades to the MB.

I think some people are turned off by the fact that the car offers so much in terms of technology. I know my father was overwhelmed with the Bluetooth functions, Navigation commands, and the knob switch in addition to the primary purpose of driving the car. Some may just want a car that feels good and drives well; without all the extra "features". I agree that people haven't readily associate Honda/Acuras with a luxury brand and they tend to gravitate towards the BMWs, Lexus, and MB cars. But in my opinion, the RL certainly has taken Acura one step closer towards association with luxury.

Riddler2222

As a recent owner of an RL, I have a major confession.

When I starting looking for a 50K range sports sedan, the RL wasn't even on my radar screen and I was driving an MDX. My interests were toward the GS350, M35, 5-Series and A6.

I think the reason I didn't give it much thought is Acura hardly promotes the car in print or TV. There are very few on the road and you don't see them. It is not the most distinctive car on the road so it kind of blends in, and doesn't stick out that much.

The only reason I looked at an RL was when I was visiting my dealership to take a look at the new 07 MDX. They had a white RL in the show room and they sales guy goes, we are starting 6K under invoice.

That was enough for me to take a test drive and two weeks later I had a brand new one.

Acura's biggest problem is marketing. Anyone see the newest Acura ad for Christmas, they show a whole lineup of cars flashing their lights but you don't get a chance to see any of them up close. Just try to find the RL in that lineup.

Compare that to Lexus tying big red bows on their car and you get a nice look.

I test drove all the forementioned cars and the RL offered the biggest bang for the buck.

jhr3uva90

That's not marketing, that's promotion, and Acura has done little to promote the RL in my opinion. Personally, I think it has something to do with the fact that Acura corporate had almost no say on the development of this car; it was designed/engineered/manufactured in Japan. I doubt of Acura corporate even thinks of the RL as "their" car as opposed to something the execs back in Japan forced upon them. As a result, I believe Acura would much rather promote their "home grown" vehicles such as the RDX. Too bad RDX sales haven't yet lived up to the promotion put behind them.

GoHawks

I love mine, in seven months (9,500 miles) of ownership only two very minor issues have developed. A minor buzz that occasionally occurs coming from the rear package shelf. Guessing that it's from the sunshade, and the other is a misaligned driver's side windshield washer nozzle (it shoots a little too low). Will point out both when I go in for service.

I love my car and look forward to driving it every day.

neuronbob

I think HOA have their heads up their a$$es when it comes to marketing the RL. They really need to come out swinging, to put the car on non-Honda owners' radar screens. I know about the RL mostly because I a) have a general interest in cars and keep up, and b) have owned Hondas on and off for over 15 years. I have two in my garage now (the RL and the spouses' Accord).

As to why the TL's sales are declining.....it's just because when the TL was released, it had all the toys and performance everyone was looking for at the right price. Now, there's more competition in the TL's market segment and the model is simply getting longer in the tooth. No big deal, the 4G TL is right around the corner and as this is Acura's breadwinner, they will be sure not to fsck it up. AWD, more power and a nice look with all the other features will make another winner!

jhr3uva90

I agree about American Honda/Acura and their half-ass RL promotion. Even the commercials (when you see them) are weak, compared the Japanese commercials for the Legend. Unfortunately, I question whether they even want to be a player in the "true luxury" ($45K and up) market.

Regarding the TL, competition in the $30K - $40K sedan market has become more intense. Toyota basically outflanked Honda with the new Lexus ES and Lexus IS. The ES is more luxurious than the TL could ever hope to be. In fact, the Lexus ES is like an RL without the SH-AWD. On the other side, the IS is more sporty than the TL, especially since it has RWD. In addition, the Infiniti G35 is the closest a Japanese sedan has ever come to the 3-Series BMW (not close enough in my opinion). And the TL has to compete with these models.

Maybe it's just me, but I have a feeling the Acura is basically going to become and SUV brand. The MDX and RDX are getting far more attention than the RL ever got, and I have a feeling the next-generation TL will be slightly disappointing.

neuronbob

BLASPHEMER! (Starts shifting prayer beads and looking for juju)

The 4G TL will be PERFECT! It will wipe the floor with its competition!

C'mon, it's being designed in America by Americans, it's gotta be good. It had better be, because it has been the best-selling Acura since 1999 and if it's not, then Acura might as well close up shop, like Amati (remember Mazda's luxury marque that never even made it to the U.S.) before it.

mav3556

I don't care the New RL is great car thats it. End of dicussion RL is the best p.e.r.i.o.d.

jhr3uva90

Amati never made it ANYWHERE. Remember, Japanese car companies initially made luxury brands like Acura and Lexus strictly for North America because we're brand whores who wouldn't pay a lot of money for Honda or Toyota brands.

Also, the RL WAS the best-selling Acura. The crown now belongs to the MDX and will probably stay that way for a long while. Meanwhile, the RL is an excellent car being sold in the wrong country. It is truly a Japanese car.

shoppit

I believe Acura lost a large part of their base when they didn't provide a suitable replacement car for the Legend and to some extent, has been trying to play catch-up ever since.

Chas2

I agree with that! I am still driving my 2G Legend. I love it, but the 2G RL is slowly stealing me away.

When the 1G RL came out, it was as if Honda had lost sight of its identity, trying to become an also ran Lexus. No doubt that the 1G RL is a very reliable car, with very high content, but boring compatively speaking. I know this old hash, so I will shut up.

jhr3uva90

Overall, Acura's sales have INCREASED since they got rid of the Legend. In addition, the TL is a more appropriate replacement for the original Legend than the RL is. The TL's price range and capabilities are more in line with the first-generation than the RL is. In addition the TL's sales have been quite impressive since 1999, except for this year.

Acura is actually doing pretty well in its niche, it just seems that Acura is focusing more on SUVs these days.

Mike_TX

If the next-gen TL is going to be a real winner, it's going to have to gain some sophistication, IMO.

For a car selling in the same price bracket as the new G35, for instance, it's going to have to gain some hp and torque, develop a smoother idle and better sound, a better ride and some better info systems.

I can see how it has sold big on its looks and reasonable performance in the past, but the competition has upped the ante and the TL seems kinda coarse by comparison. And it can't depend on SH-AWD alone to fight the competition ... too few people appreciate that.

It's gonna need killer styling, a plush interior, better build quality (as in fewer creaks and squeaks and buzzes and rattles) and the aforementioned additional power. That's a tall order, especially given Honda's current philosophy of small displacement, economical engines.

(And note from my sig line that I'm a current TL owner, not a basher ... )
.
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jhr3uva90

I agree with Mike_TX. In fact, I think the next TL will be a fine car as long as Honda/Acura doesn't try to make the TL be everything for everyone. I think Acura will have to make this decision: do they want the next TL to me more like the Lexus IS or Lexus ES?

shoppit

I'd certainly hope that Acura sales have increased since I bought my Legend. My comment was based on personal experience, not factory numbers or specs. I LOVED my 92 Legend and over the next few years, quite a few people I knew bought one and most liked it also. When it was time to replace it, neither the TL or RL felt anything like that car to me, which is what I wanted. I'm not trying to start another "Why I Like My <name your car>" thread and I'm not even sure I can explain it, but I sure know when I feel it, and Acura didn't have it anymore. Fast forward ten years and I own an 06 RL, the first car Acura has made since that gives me that same feeling. And of all those people I knew with Legends, only one still drives an Acura car (not including MDXs). So while their numbers may look positive, I still maintain that Acura abandoned a large piece of their customer base and that feeling has been confirmed by several regional Acura dealers.

jhr3uva90

Perhaps Acura felt justified in losing a certain cadre of Acura Legend loyalists in order to gain even more customers. The TL has been a major hit since 1999 (this year excepted), and the MDX has been a success since its inception. It is unfortunate if a set of drivers has been lost, though.

shoppit

There are five Acura dealerships within an hours drive of me, and every year, I'd visit one or two. They would try to position the TL as a Legend replacement, but when I disagreed, they'd all back down and admit that while the car sold well, it didn't satisfy most former Legend owners. The two most common explanations given to me were that Acura felt their name was overshadowed by the success of the Legend name (everyone knew Legend and no-one knew Acura) and that Acura's primary goal at that time was to introduce a new car at a similar price point, which, considering inflation, meant a down-sized car with current appointments and technology.

jhr3uva90

Think about it this way: most luxury brands give their cars hard to remember alphanumeric combinations for names. The point is to emphasize the brand name, not the individual model. Lexus always did that, as did Infiniti. Now Cadillac is headed in that direction (except for the Escalade). In a way, Acura was right by following that path. Meanwhile, the old Legend drivers lost were more than offset by new TL drivers gained. In addition, the Acura brand is finally starting to gain some recognition among the masses who don't really know much about cars. Yes, would love for the RL to be called the Legend just like it is everywhere else on earth. However, I see Acura's point for doing what it did.

Then again, considering how little influence Acura has over the development of the RL and how little they promote it, maybe it would be better off just calling it the Honda Legend in North America.

shoppit

What do you mean by "how little influence Acura has over the development of the RL" ?

jhr3uva90

The RL was designed, engineered, and manufactured in Japan by Honda in Japan. The TL, on the other hand, was designed in the USA and manufactured in the USA. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal a few months ago about how Honda Japan proposed the RL's design to Acura for the new TL, but Acura rejected it. That's why the new RL looks like the old TL, because the same people in Japan designed both cars. Basically, Honda of Japan made the Honda Legend and then threw across the ocean for Acura to sell in North America.

shoppit

Bear with me, because I don't know the history. Are you saying that Acura is just a North Amercan company that was allowed to design and build one of their vehicles (TL) in America, but not the rest? Are you also saying that both generations of RL's were designed, built and exported by Honda of Japan, who wanted Acura of America to accept the new RL as the TL replacement? Perhaps that explains why the two RL's are so different. I perceive a bit of prejudice, in that the new RL was designed "over there", where "they" don't really understand what we like and want. There are a couple things I don't care for, but in general, the new RL is the first Acura I've been comfortable with since the Legend, so it's hard for me to knock it's origin.

shoppit

It sounds like I'm starting to parallel the discussion in the Monthly RL Sales post. Think I'll give up here and move it to that post.

jhr3uva90

Shoppit, I think you've got it! Acura, for the most part, is a division of American Honda Corporation (AHC). In fact, the guy who runs Acura is a vice president at AHC. Acura doesn't have any engineers or manufacturing plants of their own. Acura is mostly a marketing company that more recently started doing industrial design. The current TL was designed by Acura, both generations of MDX were designed by Acura, and the new RDX was designed by Acura. Every car that has ever had the Legend name was designed in Japan, including both generations of RL. In fact, the Legend never stopped being called the Legend in Japan, it simply evolved into the car we now call the RL.

According to the article I read the the WSJ and other sources, the people in Japan designed a car that resembled the 1999-2003 TL. They wanted Acura to use it as the next TL, but Acura resisted and went with their own design, which was created in California. The Californian design became the current TL, while the Japanese design became the current RL/Legend.

The US reviews I've read of the RL tend to knock its conservative styling and many "regular" folks think it is too plain. The UK reviews I've read of the same car have praised the RL's styling. Meanwhile the RL/Legend was declared the Japan Car of the Year back in 2005. So basically, the masses in the US seem to dislike a car that won awards and accolades overseas. I guess "different strokes for different folks," as a certain boxer once said.

neuronbob

Don't forget, it DID win a Car and Driver "10 Best" award upon release and does receive its accolades in the American press when properly analyzed. Unfortunately, many publications now won't look past the lack of V8 or low end torque (which, like most Hondas, means that we have an engine that loves high revs and gets its power at high revs--in that case, driving my RL can be as fun sonically as driving my first Civic years ago....but anyhoo....)

Too busy to look up the links, but I think I made my point.

One other point before I go--don't forget that the 2G RL is miles ahead of the booooooring 1G RL. I love this car, can't wait to see what Acura comes up with for the 3G RL....it will likely be miles ahead of the 2G RL and if it's good enough, I'll be trading up to that instead of the the 4G TL or to a (shudder) Lexus.

Any case, getting up now to drive the RL to work.....aaaaaaahhhhhh what a great thought.

lumpulus

This is exactly why, other than the SH-AWD, that I bought a an RL instead of a TL, and why I bought so many Integras/RSXs, because they are made in Japan, not the US.

jhr3uva90

How un-patriotic! Just kidding.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Haha, jhr3uva90 sure knows a lot about the insider info of Honda! I never knew about Acura resisting the design of the Japanese version TL (now the RL). And I guess they made a good choice since the TL is the best selling model right now in US (even though it's declining).

As for "different strokes for different folks," that's can be seen with the Subaru Legacy too. It also won Car of the Year 2004 in Japan but unfortunately, it's not doing so well here either. But once again, just like the 2G RL, I like the styling of that Legacy.

GoHawks

I wonder how much of the sales difference has to do with the car versus the marketing.

If the RL got as much marketing as the TL did, I'm sure it would have done better.

In 2005 the RL beat our most of the competition (V6 models) and most of those other cars (i.e. Lexus) have sold more cars (GSs).

shoppit

I thought I was leaving ....

So contrast the structure of Acura to Lexus and Infinity, both vertical offshoots of other Japanese auto manufacturers. Where does Lexus and Infinity design and manufacture their cars? Can they also be categorized as US marketing companies doing industrial design?

jhr3uva90

There is an interesting book about the history of Lexus called "Lexus: The Relentless Pursuit" that explains the origin of Lexus.

http://www.amazon.com/Lexus-Relentle...e=UTF8&s=books

Basically, Toyota wanted a way to sell more expensive cars to America, so they sent their people to California to see what rich folks at country clubs were driving back in the 1980's. What were those rich folks driving? Mercedes. So Toyota decided to "out-Mercedes" Mercedes by going all out and creating the original Lexus LS. Some folks would say Toyota succeeded.

Anyway, Lexuses are basically designed, engineered, and manufactured in Japan, but with the US market specifically in mind. Lexus just got their own design center in Japan separate from Toyota a few years ago. The L-Finesse design language was the result. Now that Toyota has taken the Lexus brand to Europe (circa 2003) and Japan (August 2005), they want to take a unique approach to their car design, one that isn't quite as US-focused.

You want to know the difference between a Lexus ES and the Toyota Avalon? The former is built in Japan, while the latter is built in the US. In fact, ALL Lexuses are built in Japan.

As far as I can tell, all the Infiniti cars are also manufactured in Japan. The industrial design and engineering for all Infiniti vehicles occurs in Japan, where they are sold as Nissans. Bear in mind that Nissan has always been the most "European" of the Japanese car companies as far as their mentality is concerned. Now that Renault owns the plurality of Nissan's shares and also shares a CEO with Nissan, the Euro influence has only gotten stronger.

Acura is unique in that its most popular models are made in North America, and that's part of the reason why Acuras tend to cost less than their Japanese competitors. Unfortunately, that might be one of the reasons why Acuras are not held in as high esteem as its competitors.

jhr3uva90

Thanks, but this isn't insider info. Just Google it, and you'll find the articles.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

If Acura had a sedan like the Lexus LS, it could be as successful as Lexus now as a high-end luxury brand comparable to BMW and MB. Too bad that Acura took the sportier/performance approach at first and it's really hard to convert the image now.