Chas2

Sorry to see you move on also, but I understand your pain. In fact, even Automobile Magazine addresses it in the latest review of the 08 Accord, which they like quite a bit.

"I suspect that Acura dealers are the only people who will seriously dislike the new Accord--when there's only a 17-hp gap between the everyman Accord and the nearly $50,000 Acura RL, you're beginning to run into a branding problem."

Isn't that what we have been saying all along, major branding problems at Acura?

CL6

Wow!

Here's some 'stuff' the new Accord has:

~ Active Noise Control
~ 18" wheels on Accord Coupe
~ Sedan classified as 'EPA Large Sedan'
~ ACE body structure
~ Active front head restraints
~ 18.5 gallon fuel tank
~ Power lumbar
~ Variable Cylinder Management
~ New dual-chamber front side airbags
~ PZEV emissions certified
~ Navigation/interface dial
~ Bluetooth
~ Information display
~ All engines run on REGULAR GAS

No... it's not the new TL... it's the new Accord!

I see a few things even the RL doesn't have!

SpicyMikey

I guess this throws the Honda world out of balance right now. But, it's probably a good sign. Honda raising the bar must translate to Acura next year as well. I'm starting to expect interesting things now in 09 with the new TSX, TL, and even probably the RL. I hope they add keyless start across the board to all the Acura's. This has quickly become a symbol of luxury. Even the new Lexus SUV's will have it next year (LX570 and RX350)

neuronbob

Remember, the RL was the test bed for all the stuff that has finally, after only three short model years, made it into the Accord.

So the next RL had better be balling or I'll be trading down to the Accord. Why buy an Acura when you can get most of what you need in an Accord, AND use regular gas. (This was the "nail in the coffin" argument my wife used against me when I suggested an MDX earlier this year. As you can see in my sig, my wife won the day and we own a Pilot. )

Rob144

If Honda/Acura puts the RL on haitus in MY09, while the TL moves upmarket and adds performance they really won't alienate many existing 2G RL owners -- there aren't very many of us judging from the sales figures.

We're the early adopters, in this case for SH-AWD that has spread throughout the lineup. Its just that the current platform is not suitable for this market. The 2G RL was clearly designed to Japanese tastes and tweaked for various markets.

The cars that Acura designed for the US market, MDX, TL, RDX, are mostly decent sellers and helped establish Acura as a performance/value leader (especially the 2G & 3G TL). The RL and TSX (which are the Legend and Accord elsewhere) don't quite slot into the Acura brand, and the RSX was just killed off. As long as Acuras are re-badged Hondas (even very good ones), they aren't going to play well in this market, and the dealers aren't interested. They become line-up filler that dilutes the brand. Anyone remember the first Lexus ES? Even the 2G Legend (great car which I owned) started to sputter early on as Lexus distinguished themselves.

The current TL has quite a bit of current Accord DNA. A new TL in 2009 is really going to have to raise the bar. If it comes with SH-AWD, and plenty of room and gadgets the current RL may well be retired for this market. I think an Acura Q-ship will have to be a true luxury/performance car that makes a big step up from the TL beyond 2009.

Honda started the luxury Japanese car line with the Acura brand using the Legend. I think it is in them to re-establish the marque.

Rob144

mrdeeno

uh, the RDX is a decent seller?

neuronbob

IIRC, the Legend isn't a big seller in Japan, either, so Honda seems to have missed its domestic target as well. I don't have numbers to back me up but someone here (likely Touge) who knows the JDM market made such a comment a while back.

mrdeeno is correct, the Acura SUVs (both MDX and RDX) are pretty good sellers right now. It's the RL that's the only consistently poor seller. The TL is slowing down only because people are anticipating the change in model next model year. The TSX has consistently performed above expectations, again until recently, as a new model is expected.

CL6

How can you say they're good sellers? The MDX is because it's a world class car.

The RDX started getting incentives thrown on it within 6 months of it coming out and selling for invoice or below not long after. Took the TL 3 years to get there and the MDX 4 years. That car still has 4.5 years to go and already it's 'done.' Pretty weak for an all-new car to sell for invoice or below so quick. I remember the first one I sold... less than a month after it came out and more than $1,000 off. The RDX is not a decent seller... if you put enough money and rate on it you'll move the car but I wouldn't call it a strong seller per se.

It's not simply how much metal you're moving... it's also the average selling price of those units.

Thru July TL sales down 16.5% for the year, TSX sales down 15% for the year... Only the MDX is up.

I think the planning was not done correctly... to space the products out, to refresh them fast enough. The new TL should be coming out this year not next. RSX should have had a replacement. NSX should have had a replacement. CL should have had a replacement. That's what got me about Acura... they are Japanese after all... not like they don't plan. Even Stalin had his 5 year plans... who got put in charge of the Acura planning board?

http://www.hondabeat.com/sales_stats.php

TampaRLX-SH

To me, it is apparent that there are some philosophical conflicts between Honda and Acura product strategies. I tend to think Acura product management is a US entity trying to extract US appealing products from Honda Japan's global mindset. I think Honda of North America has a similar situation but they rode in on Honda Japan models and reputation already introduced into the US. In some cases models crossed between brands and markets do well (TSX / Euro Accord, Civic, Fit, CRV, MDX for example) and others fall between the cross branding, cross marketing dilemma (RL/Legend, US Accord / Inspire), and others are US specific (RDX, Ridgeline, Pilot, Element). In some cases I think they expect too much cross appeal from a model and in other cases they did not capture a market specific appeal for anyone.

I often wonder how much Acura had to say about the RL/Legend, or Honda Japan just gambled the Legend would suit US appeal? The RDX looks to me as an Acura designed application onto the CRV platform...but did it work? Yet the MDX will be exported outside the US and it made the mark for the US appeal. The TSX was a lucky coincidence for Acura, as it is simply the global Euro Accord rebadged as TSX. I don't think Acura can take credit for the TSX success as it should with the TL.

We all comment that Acura needs to seperate itself or define itself from parent Honda...yet it still missed the mark with the RDX,a somewhat Acura exclusive design (on a shared CRV platform). In many ways, the TL has been the greatest success of Acura in design appeal, and the MDX a good follow up. But that is 2 out of 3 models primarily influenced by Acura exclusive design recently. Would parent Honda be willing to risk the next gen TSX and RL on Acura's say so when they still have to sell them globally? That is a big gamble for a smaller car company. And would that be too big a risk for Honda to back Acura in designing its own flagship for US market appeal? It would have to be built on a Honda America plant...Acura has not plants.

Honda being as conservative in philosophy and Acura breaking ino any edgey brand, the two will have difficulty finding compromises. In the end, Acura is simply an American front for upscale Honda. It is merely a band name, and some design variances (even some exclusive) and just recently an exclusive Acura Design Studio...but ultimatly Acura is built by Honda and with Honda parts and engineering. As long as they live under Honda's house, Honda house rules will likley call the shots. If Acura wants to design and build independently from Honda cross fitted / cross marketed models, that would be a very big investment, and risk indeed.

SpicyMikey

Man, the RDX is just a bad package in my eyes. Not that bold looking. 4cyl , and over 38k+ with reasonable add-on accessories. Change out those ugly wheels (again with the ugly wheels) and you're over 40k. Not very appetizing. You can buy a decked out 4WD CR-V with nicer wheels and a bolder look for $28k.

I think Honda/Acura laid an egg with that one. I'm not surprised with the numbers. I hope the new "design team" didn't design that ugly duck. The TL and TSX? That's more of a mystery to me. Maybe the numbers are down across the whole segment. I haven't checked. Anyone know that answer?

2007AcuraRL

Actually the CRV is another Honda error IMHO. How could they offer that model with only a mediocre 4 cyl and no 6 cyl option? The Toyota RAV4 has got to be killing that car with sales since you get get a 6 cyl RAV (270+ HP) for nearly the same price as the CRV. I know the CRV is a Civic based platform, but at least use that 200hp Civic engine as an option.

As for the RDX, its definitely priced way to high. Should be a low 30's car, after all it IS a Civic platform.

By the same token, when it comes to vehicle pricing, I am at least happy that Acura killed off the $20k RSX last year. They did at least one thing right. To me it made no sense for Acura to be the "Flagship" brand when they were offering a car model that everyone's 18 year old brother could afford.

Now, with the '08 Accord having what seems like every feature of a TL, they've essentially killed off the TL until the '09 design. Not a happy time to be an Acura sales rep I would imagine.....

mrdeeno

Actually the CRV is doing very well and I think is the #1 selling SUV so far for 2007.

The RDX to the CRV is the same as the RL to the Accord...the CRV nails what is required in its segment (fuel efficient, roomy, enough power, reliable, value), just as the Accord nails what is required in its segment (fuel efficient, roomy, enough power, reliable, value).

Unfortunately the "key strengths" in the CRV/Accord segments are merely "nice things to have" in the RDX/RL segments, and even then some of those "key strengths" are even weaknesses in the RDX/RL segment when it comes to trying to sell these cars on perception (i4 only and lack of V8).

so basically they need to tell the marketing guys over at Acura that what works for honda doesn't necessarily mean it works for Acura, and may even hurt Acura.

Rob144

TampaRL has it right about Acura and Honda being somewhat at odds. As long as Acura has to rely on rebadged Hondas that don't occupy the space of competitive premium brands, Acura will suffer. When they did the TL and MDX, which are unique to Acura, they hit the target pretty well.

But the fellow who dumped his RL for a GS350 didn't have to think too hard when he decided he needed to to drive a Lexus to impress customers. Everybody knows what a Lexus is, and it easily conveys its brand image. Is that where Acura wants to be?

When I owned my first 1G Legend coupe, I had to describe at as a giant Honda Prelude (which I owned just prior). When I moved to the '95 Legend, people had a better idea what a Legend was, if not what an Acura was. I received more compliments on that car than any other to date. The point is that Acura had some equity in the Legend name (and Integra), and lost it with the whole alpha-numeric concept.

If the RL is to be Acura's flagship, and it will only ever be a rebadged Legend, then that ties Acura's hands. The next TL may step all over the RL in size and performance. Maybe Acura will use the TL platform to create the next RL and leave the Legend in Japan.

Either way, if Acura doesn't come up with a clear strategy they are going to fail as a brand. After all, their finest salesman are moving on!

Rob144

Populuxe

This is absolutely the truth, and this is the reason I really love my Acura and why I chose it over the E90 3-series, G35 or A4. (Sure, neither of these are in the same bracket as the RL that you guys are driving, but the same point still stands.)

I have a very hard time paying for an emblem. I had an E46 3-series for a while and fell in love with its wonderful balance; when I went to buy another car, I instantly looked toward the BMW. I drove the new ones and fell in love with the same engineering, but the price increase that BMW pulled on the E90 made it less worth the money. When it came down to paying an extra $200/mo for a 328i that was roughly competitive with my TSX (minus the FF / FR layout difference,) it wasn't worth it. I was a Honda lover in the past and know the K-series 4 well, and in the end I didn't want to be the conspicuous consumer. Even now I've debadged the TSX to as much as I can without body work, because I'm certainly not worried about what other people think about my car and would rather not flaunt anything at all, even though my current vehicle isn't that expensive relative to the real luxury brands.

The biggest issue with the RL's poor sales, or at least I believe, is primarily the lack of brand prestige. The car is out of reach for all but the most hardcore Honda enthusiasts; most making the income required to purchase that car are going to move onto the offerings of the luxury brands, where they can have the engineering as well as the status symbol. The people that buy the RL are much less worried about the conspicuous consumption involved. That makes the RL owners my friends.

SpicyMikey

from your lips too their ears, I hope.
.

SpicyMikey

Which makes me want to restate another important fact (which many of us already realize). Acura's main customer base is "move up" Honda" buyers. The next large group are move up Toyo and Nissan buyers. The MB and BMW buyer is not cross shopping jap cars as much. German and Jap cars really cater to a different crowd and these manufacturers invest their time and money in different areas of the vehicle. That's why I'll probably never own a German car. I don't have the need to take a right turn at 30mph.

Point is, Honda needs to pay more attention to keeping their two product lines separated. Honda keeps stepping on Acura's toes.

CL6

I disagree. I think Lexus is shopped quite a bit against MB and BMW. The MDX and the X5 get shopped a lot against one another. I think once people 'break through' to a super luxury car like a MB or a BMW then the shopping is less common (except at Lexus).

But you'll get an A8, MB S Class, BMW 5 or 7 Series, and a Lexus LS shopped against one another, for example.

German cars are about performance but they have so many luxury features like night vision, massaging seats, safety features, etc...

SpicyMikey

I actually wasn't making that stuff up. I was going by my brother who was an Acura salesman for many years both in Wayne NJ and then Orlando, FL. He always found the majority of Acura buyers were typically jap car buyers already. He didn't feel people were crossing over that much. That's not to say there aren't any MB and BMW buyers buying Acura and Lexus (and visa versa). We're just talking about where's the bulk of your customers coming from.

I know you were an Acura salesman too. Maybe your experiences were different. That would be another interesting marketing statistic to know.

CL6

Perhaps where I was had something to do with it. Rarely shopped against MB but often compared to BMW.

SpicyMikey

The same could be said about my brother's experiences. His perspective could be slanted because of where his dealerships were located. That's why it would be cool to see an aggregated statistic on that question (if anyone every compiled such a thing)

Also, "shopping" is one thing, "buying" is another. I always "shop" all the cars in the class. I checked out the Cadillac STS, the BMW 5, MB E, and the Lexus GS. However, I ended up buying Japanese AGAIN. The last 4 cars I've purchased have been Japanese.

My gut feeling is there is a bit of a separation between people who buy Euro cars versus people who buy Jap cars versus people who buy American. I guess you will see a BMW and a Buick in the same driveway, or an Acura and an MB, but typically it's less common then a Buick and a Lincoln, or a Honda and a Toyota. They just seem to attract different customers with different priorities.

CL6

Thre country's so big it depends. On the coasts I think you'll see a Lexus and a MB next to one another. A lot of my customers had an MDX but also an Audi or a BMW. The MDX won out because of the 3rd row. I never had people shopping against anything but Volvo (XC90), BMW (3 & 5) and Infiniti (M and G). Every once in a while you get someone looking at the MB ML or E Class but not really. I think MB customers are different. I'm sure Acura has the metrics you're referencing.

CL6

Sorry... of course shop against Lexus.

noobie

While I generally would agree with that. But I cross shopped the German and Japanese. I would buy a E or 5 series with the right incentives. Reliability aside, they build nice driving cars.

I think the RL sales will tank even more without incentives on the 08s. And I agree about the Accord. When I saw the list of stuff and the dash layout, I thought RL.

I guess we can't say the RL looks like an Accord, we'll have to start saying the Accord looks like a RL

noobie

Good luck to you. I think you made the right choice. When I bought my first MDX, they were selling with ADM. I got a break on MSRP, but the sales guy still made good gross.

I am currently getting quotes for a 2008 MDX (yes 2008, not 2007) and the first one came back at $200 over invoice. I actually think I can do better. How times have changed for Acura. Good for me. Bad for you (well not anymore)

I guess this is how all the GM, Ford and Chrysler guys feel.

noobie

+1, I think that thing is sharp. Love what they did to the interior! Enough to buy one if not for the poor resale... .

CL6

Good for you on the price, yes. But all that does is make the sales guys go for the throat more, provide little customer service, and consumers don't know how to operate their cars. To think the MDX is only 20% through its life-cycle and it's already at invoice means bad things for everybody in the end. Makes it so unpleasant to whore out the cars.

Really, the car biz should just have the price like Saturn and nothing else.

hungphan8

I don't think the new Accord looks like an RL. They look like to have some similar specifications, but the real difference is more than skin deep. Just look at Camry and ES350. Similarly equiped, the MSRP difference is about 10k. Of course, there are things you can't find with Camry (backup cam, HID). Why do people still buy ES350? Total experience, not just the sum of its parts (Loaner car, quality material, brand name, ...) I don't think the Accord will ever have quality material as that in an RL. The RL paint is REALLY beautiful. Underneath the RL also amazing (just by the look to me). The real question is what price difference will justify the RL. I like the drive of RL much better than that of Accord, which is also very nice. MotorTrend has a quick comparison between Accord 08 V6 and Camry SE V6, and Accord is a little bit better than the Camry. If I had 42k to spend, I would still choose RL over Accord 08. I wish I could dial a phone number from the Nav in the RL (like that in MDX 07)

Qatar

If you phone is paired with the RL, you can dial from the navi. this feature statred with 2004 TL

TampaRLX-SH

Edmunds is reporting luxury car sales are off 19%. That is a significant number with Acura an already small market niche competitor. Likely the fewer buyers will gravitate to bigger brands. Some of the downturn of luxury cars may be tied to credit market crunches and housing market downturns discouraging premium purchases. In line with that is an upturn in used cars sales.

Acura will have it's work cut out to keep market share. The current soft / sophisticated marketing style may not be able to survive much longer. Honda will do OK with a turn to less expensive, fuel efficient vehicles. But Acura needs to get in your face if they don't want to be superfulous in a straining economy.

SpicyMikey

Maybe they'll have some sweet deals on the 08 MDX before the holidays. A strong early year residual with an agressive mf could get me to jump into one. That 4.9% financing just doesn't excite me. It's not too much better then yuo get get on your own. I wanted them to add keyless start for the 08's. It didn't happen.

noobie

What about the 2.9% for three years? I think I will bite at invoice for an 08 with or without the financing. Can't time everything perfect.

I wonder what they are going to do with the 08 RLs. Sales must be down to a snail's pace.

noobie

You know CL6, it's just the way market is right now. These things move in cycles. I wasn't getting too much love when I bought the first gen MDX and dealers were asking for ADM. Honda dealers were downright rude when I looked at Odysseys when there were three month wait lists. How was that good for anyone but the dealers and salespeople?

Whoring out cars is what the domestic boys have been doing for years. Saturn has been somewhat of a bust. They make a good car in the Aura and no one wants it. It seems the only time Saturn is a good deal is with a GM supplier discount. If you don't have one of those how do feel buying a car from them at full list? At least with the other divisions you can come close to supplier or employee price and not pay full pop.

But, it's a free market and you are taking things into your own hands and moving to greener pastures. Alll the best.

wstr75

BMW's August USA unit sales up 19.3%.
http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...0070904?rpc=44
Quick view indicated increase in both car and truck (SUV) sales. I don't follow BMW so can we assume the sales up because of new/recent product introductions? Incentive programs (lease rates, loyalty programs, etc.)?

TampaRLX-SH

I would expect there be several reasons.

1) BMW ads are well distributed, many televisions ads.
2) The promotion of maintenance included.
3) Product / model updates
4) A shrinking luxury car market and tighter credit market causing the market segment to contract into the best known brands.

And I know many others will add to this list!

SpicyMikey

Regardless, that's impressive. I was just reading an article this week about how luxury brands are soft this year. The article speculated about thousing crunch.