It is called capitalism. Good and bad, it is what it is.

 

Yep. Do you want a huge choice of hammers with plenty of inventory at a rock bottom price (but not a saleman in miles if you have a question)? Or, do you want to pay twice for the hammer (but talk to Sam at Sam's Hardware store and get his advice on what's best)? People vote with their wallets. Seems everyone wants the cheap hammer with no service. The suppliers just give us what we want. it's our own fault.

Problem is we want it all. It just doesn't work that way. I'm sure you've all heard the old saying in selling a product or service. You can have it CHEAP, FAST, or GOOD. Pick two.

 

I want a hammer that's shaped like a womans breast... and tastes like a margarita. How much will one of those cost?

 

It's been my experience that the only engines to consume MORE oil than a Vtec is a Mazda Rotary.

The h22a was a notorious consumer of oil, part of this may have been due to the fact that the car came alive at 5000 RPM.

It would seem that your engine is consuming a bit more oil than it should, but these Vtec engines do seem to just make oil evaporate. The oil light on your car won't come on until you are down to your last 1-2 quarts, they don't really need the pan full to safely operate it just allows better recirculation and filtration.

 

Any techncal explanation why a vtec engine consumes more oil? just curious

I thought all that system did was vary the valve timing to allow the engine to breath harder under high revs. I admit I've never given it much thought.

 

^
Honestly, I don't know. I always assumed it's due to the high revving nature of the engines. I have a buddy who had a h22a powered turbo Civic that put over 500hp (revs to about 9000 rpm) to the wheels at full boost, his motor only ate a little more oil than my stock h22a in my Prelude (revs to 7500 rpm).

The higher it revs, the hotter it gets, the more oil you consume. If you put a pan of oil on the stove and turn it on high, some of the oil cooks off and goes into the air.

That said I would expect it to be a little less on a RL as the motor doesn't rev as high as a 4 cylinder Vtec.

 

I used to have an s2000 and they explain it on their forum, sorry I do not remember the tech reason for it.

 

That could be part of it, I suppose. The hotter the engine runs, the thinner the oil will get. The thinner the oil gets, the more it will work it's way between "barriors" in place to keep it from going out the exhaust pipe.

 

Just for info, Formula 1 runs zero weight oil.

 

Yea, but a racing engine is designed to run with it. Plus, I'm sure it has multigrade properties. Can't be straight 0w Lastly, they monitor and change the oil after each race. They're goal isn't to reduce oil consumption. They're going for high revs and low resistence. Right?

 

NavyDoc, I know you are going to be missed on this forum. I know I'm going to miss reading your posts!

Best of luck with your new car. I'm very embarrassed that Acura treated you like that. I too have never had a car burn that much oil.

Best of luck,
Bob...

 

Engine oil consumption is highly relative. Back when I bought my first Corvette -- 1965, 327 cu. in. 350 HP -- 1000 to 1500 miles to the quart was considered excellent, for just about any car. I averaged between 1000 and 1700 miles to the quart, depending on how hard I drove. Also, even the best motor oil then would not pass qualification tests that today's oils must meet -- oil in those days had to be changed every 1000 - 2000miles, so we've come a long way in oil technology.

Fact is, at that time. Castrol still marketed its "R" type SAE 50 weight racing oil, which was in fact Castor oil (vegitable derived), hence to origin of the company name. It was one of the few oils that would hold up under racing conditions then -- but absoutely had to be drained right after a race to prevent it from breaking down and turning into a solid mass in the crankcase. Fifty weight oil at that time was the only viscosity that would hold up for even the few hundred miles most sports car races lasted and being down a quart or more at the end of a race was perfectly normal.

Today, just about any car (other than super tuned engines such as BMW M series) normally gets at least 4000 miles to the quart -- with most running much better than that even. Most people seem to expect virtually zero oil consumption between changes (hence the origin of this thread) Which is why with oil monitors now indicating oil change intervals that can run up to 15,000 miles people are suddenly getting alarmed when they have to add a quart or two between changes. The very long oil change intervals are porbably the major reason that suddenly people are starting to think that someting is wrong if they're down a quart between changes. The vast majority of car owners buy into the dealer and oil company pushed idea that oil should be changed every 3000 miles. In that interval virtually any car will need NO oil between changes. So anyone who goes well beyond this range may start to notice SOME oil consumption and thus become alarmed, that something wrong.

Mazda's Wankle engine uses more oil than most because it uses a "total loss" type oiling system for the rotor seals. Oil is actully injected into the intake tract of the Wankle to lubricate and cool the seals, because it's the only way to get enough oil to this critical area to get the job done. Earlier Mazda Wankles got around 1000 miles to the quart with this system and had a fairly large sump capacity to allow for considerable oil usage without danger of running dry. The current Mazda Wankle I'm sure is improved, but it still no doubt uses much more oil than anyone here would find acceptable.

I don't believe there's anything inherent in VTEC design that makes it prone to use "more" oil than other engines. What probably accounts for it is the need, with the VTEC, as with all smaller displacement engines, to turn higher rpm's more frequently to deliver the kind of performance that more displacement yields without the high revs. Also, like the Wankle (at least in the RL VTEC engine) Acura uses oil, sprayed from nozzles onto the bottom of the piston crowns to reduce high piston temperatures that can cause detonation. This, by itself, under high tempetature conditions can result is higher than typical oil usage simply from oil vaporization on very hot piston surfaces. Whether this is true of all VTEC engine designs (use of oil sprayers) I don't know, but it definately is true of the RL VTEC design.

In any case, how oil hungry VTEC engines are compared to other designs is strictly relative. Five thousand to ten thousand miles to the quart is not at all excessive. And how much is due to individual driving style and driving conditions can have a huge effect too.

And just for the record, this RL is my second VTEC engine (first was a Honda Odessy) and neither has seemed to be especially worse on oil consumption compared to our most recent non-VTEC engined car, a 2003 Cadillac DTS (300HP, 4.6 L V8), which averaged around 9000 miles per quart.

All internal combustion engines cosume some oil. They have to in order to lubricate AND COOL the internal moving parts. It's just a matter of how long the interval between oil changes whether one notices how much oil is actully being used. When the consumption gets below 1000 miles to the quart is when to get concerned. That's when you'll start to see the beginnings of blue oil smoke from the exhaust

 

Very good explanation jack. I learned a few things. Thanks.

When I was a teenager in the 70's and pumping gas for extra cash, I remember adding oil to a lot of cars. In fact, that was one of the things you did for a customer as they were getting a "fill up". Check the oil, clean the windshield. Man, whatever happened to those days Every third person seemed to need oil.

But, I can go 6000 miles on my current Toyota Sienna and not be down a full quart. My RL shows no signs of oil use right now after 5300 miles. I admit a dipstick is not an accurate measuring tool, but it's good enough to see when you're a quart down.

I think NavyDoc was going thru a qt every 1500 miles or so. I could be wrong but it was certainly shockingly high. I still say he had a problem. Not sure he should have dumped the car, but that was his call.

 

i bought a brand new Toyota Avalon in 1998. By 135,000 miles the car was burning oil so bad that it left a blue cloud especially in the morning. I knew someone who changed used engines for a living. I bought an engine with 35,000 miles for $1,300 and this guy put the engine in, new water pump & timing belt for $800 including parts. The new engine ran perfectly and we sold the car at 168,000 miles. The engine original motor ran perfectly except it burned a quart every 200 miles. My daughter begged me to change the motor (her car then) because the blue smoke embaressed her.

While I owned the car, I changed the oil every 7,000 miles using synthetic oil. However, i did get a letter from Toyota when the car was about 6 years old saying they extended the engine warranty to 100,000 miles due to failures caused by oil sludging. When I changed my oil in the car, it always remained gold in color and never did it turn black, brown or any other color. With the smokey start in the morning I always felt that it was the valve seals that failed.

The engine failure did leave a bad taste for me, but in the end, it was the only major repair on this quality car. The car went 125,000 miles before its first brake job, and the pads were only half way worn, but the rotors were shimmying. The only other things that I bought were tires, headlights, licence plate lamp, wiper blades, one set of plugs, and one ignition module pack(for one cylinder)

I could accept a car that burned one quart every 2.500 miles provided that there is no sign of deterioration. The burning of a quart every 5,000 miles is considered normal by all manufacturers that I have heard.

 

I didn't think any one called it a wankle any more. Mazda definitely improved this over the first gen RX7 (or the rx3), but they still consume oil at a rate most people would find alarming.

I guess the only thing I find more disturbing than the amount of oil they use is the amount of power they make from less than 80 cubic inches.

 

Spicy, NavyDoc according to his description, was using oil at the rate of about 1.2 quarts in FIVE THOUSAND miles. That may be higher than most owners here are getting, but it, in my opinion, is not catastrophically high oil consumption.

 

I'm not a RL owner yet. I plan on getting an 08 within 1 year. That being said, we have an 1996 Accord EX with VTEC and the 2006 Ody EX-L with the i-VTEC. Neither vehicle consumes much oil. Even after 5000-7000 miles, I still do not have to add any oil.

However, as mentioned already, consuming 1 quart of oil between oil change intervals, with roughly 5k to 7k miles intervals, is entirely normal.

My parents 2005 Passat V6 consumes roughly 1 quart every 5000 miles.

So, it depends on the car.

 

Somehow I have it stuck in my head that he was burning a quart of oil every month. I must have read it wrong.

 

Goes back to what we discussed the other day....capitalism....stations started cutting-out those "extras" in order to have a lower price per gallon and when customers flocked there, the competitors started doing the same thing. Now, it's the norm.

 

You guys are making me nostalgic for the days when a kid could sit "shotgun" in a car. Your folks would pull into the gas station and you'd see the windows being cleaned, the hood pop open, a quart poured in from a cardboard can with a metal top using a can opener/funnel. They might check the air pressure. Then the uniformed attendant would come to the window, swipe Mom's credit card and give her a clipboard to sign. Eight dollars later, you'd be on your way.

Now when I pull into the gas station, my 6 & 9 year old kids want to press the buttons, swipe the credit card, and pump the gas. Fifty dollars later, you wonder where the money's going. Good thing the kids don't run into the Quickee Mart!

Way off topic....except that maybe the frequent oil check/refills at the fill-up masked a lot of oil consumption problems.

Rob144

 

The oil at the gas station was also one of the easiest ways for the attendant to make some extra money.

He checks the oil and it is fine. Tells the person driving the car that they are about a quart low and offers to top it off.

He goes and gets the empty oil can he keeps inside and pretends to pour the oil in. Customer gets charged for a quart of oil, money goes into attendant's pocket.

You weren't one of those were you SpiceyMikey?

 

Ah, I forgot about dealing with people with credit cards. Pain in the neck when you were standing out there in the dead of winter with a stiff wind. Had to take your gloves off to tear the carbon copy off for the customer. Weren't many credit card sales back then. Good thing. You always appreciated the guys who just came in and said "5 bucks regular". You pumped in that good old LEADED regular without removing your gloves, took his $5 bill, and he was off. I always tried to give the kid exact change in the winter when I became the customer.

 

Actually no I wasn't. People seemed to be onto that game (at least in NJ where I was). They expected to see you punch open the can in front of them or they'd give you crap. Besides, it was a local "gas station". Most of the people were regulars. I'd get the $hit kicked out of me if I ever got caught doing that to someone in the neighborhood.

 

^
I think they had to pick their spots well, old people, overweight people who weren't likely to get out of the car, the usual rubes.

 

Don't forget the S&H Greenstamps and the obligatory HESS model truck purchase a Christmas time.

Although the LOW OIL warning is there, I am kinda surprised there is not a more sophisticated oil level indicator, even with driver setting selection to alert the driver when the oil, is say 1 quart low. LOW OIL level is just a bit to late for my comfort level, and I doubt most drivers check the dipstick as few as one time between oil changes.

I'd be happy for a regular washer fluid fill. The RL just doesn't hold enough!

 

Sounds like a petrol sommelier! Did you have to present the lid and offer a sample before pouring the oil into the crankcase?

Remember too, in NJ it is/was illegal to pump your own fuel. One of those 'Blue Laws'. Some states had self serve and full serve pumps (and corresponding pump prices).

Here in Florida, I just pray I can find a self serve pump where no one is grabbing the filler hose with the lit Marlboro in hand and the cell phone in the other.

 

Yea, something like that. As you may remember, the oil was usually stacked in an A frame rack at the center island. You'd go over to the rack, get the quart, place it on the ground, and then "tap" it while still in sight of the driver. No formal "presentation", but it was the proper way to handle it so you eliminated any suspision on their part. Of course there were always those few who challenged you when you said the oil was low. They wanted you to show them the dipstick before and after the fill. A$$holes.

Greenstamps! We didn't give out no stink'n Green Stamps. This was Newark NJ. You had to go to the A&P for that stuff.

Are we far enough Off Topic yet? I think this thread is wearing out

 

[QUOTE=SpicyMikey

Greenstamps! We didn't give out no stink'n Green Stamps. This was Newark NJ. You had to go to the A&P for that stuff.

Are we far enough Off Topic yet? I think this thread is wearing out[/QUOTE]

They can close the thread when NavyDoc returns.

BTW, I was born in St Michael's, and lived on Hawthorn Ave during the 60's riots (I still remember seeing tanks on Springfield Ave). My summer days were spent at Irvington Park picking up deposit soda bottles around the pond. My mom worked with Frankie Valli at the Mayflower Bakery and my uncle sang with him before fame & fortune. I'd walk to A&P with granny and if I was a good kid, I'd get to buy a $1 toy car @ John's Bargain store downtown. The car rarely got home before I pulled off the wheels. Some things never change.

Oil consumption! Oh Yeah.... ummmmm, no problems here.

 

Don't forget the "generic" pour-bottle oil that many stations carried. If a quart of name brand oil cost 50 cents, the "no name" bottles cost 10 or 25 cents a quart -- and looked like it just come out of some other car's crankcase. But lots of cars that got 50miles to the quart used it -- and usually bought their gas $1.00 at a time.

 

I had a good friend in the 70's that worked as a gas station attendent. He told me that they got commissions on how much oil they sold. To be effective, they used a technique called "short sticking" They would put out the oil dip stick, clean off the end and insert it in a way where it wouldn't bottom out. My friend sold a lot of oil.

 

Man, you guys were terrible LOL. I was actually a bit of a shyster as a teenager. Far from law abiding. But, for some reason, doing that stuff to customers wasn't on my to-do list. Maybe because I needed the job and didn't want to risk getting fired.

I was born in Clara Maass Hospital and raised in the Vailsburg section. My parents moved up Bloomfield Ave to 16th street after the riots. Lived in NJ till I got married and then "escaped" to Florida. Never really looked back except for vists once a year. I'm going up for Thanksgiving and already scalped tickets to the Giants - Viking game that Sunday. Some things you never can let go of

 

From oil consumption to a Jersey transplant sign in.

Born in Flemington NJ, Masshole since 79. Only been back once since I left to visit the lovely Airport in Newark on the way to the Soviet Union.

 

God you guys ar egiving me flashbacks.

In high school, I worked at a Phillips 66 that was across the street from my house.

I remember having to work the credit card machine. Had to be careful around the "pits". They didn't have hydraulic lifts. Just pits in each bay. Had to be careful that you didn't fall in when a car wasn't in the bay. It was pretty nasty down there. The station had to be 30 or 40 years old when I worked there and that was the late '70s.

I remember once working the tire machine and bending (crushing is a better word) the metal wheel because I wasn't paying attention when I lined it up. The owner gave me $hit.

Also remember balancing tires on a bubble balancer.

Good times.

 

Bubble balancer. Yep, state of the art equipment for sure!! Don't see them around anymore, thank god.

There's not many things from years gone buy that I miss. I'm not a nostalgic kind of guy. But I think we've lost something when the local gas/service station disappeared. That local station in the neighborhood that had three bays. Owned and operated by a local guy from the neighborhood who knew you and knew you're car. usually had his teenage boys (and maybe daughters) working there as well. Cars were much simpler then, of course, but you knew what they were good at and you got consistent and reliable service when you needed it. Now, who knows what clown is working on your car when you drop it off.