neuronbob

http://hondanews.com/CatID2000?mid=2...57352&mime=asc

Sep 2006: 1015
Sep 2005: 1552 -37.1%


Total RLs sold YTD:

2006: 9081
2005: 13446 -32.8%



But I'm enjoying mine, and the exclusivity that goes along with it. We'll see whether the new Base model adds to this significantly. Something that hasn't been discussed much here is that the Base model now competes, pricewise, directly with the M35x, which I have heard is not selling well, either. Will try to come up with numbers to support that assertion...

Touge

I feed bad for Acura, but do like the fact that I don't see too many of them on the road.

miner

My reason when upgrading from the TSX for skipping the TL and going directly to the RL - I see TLs everywhere in masses but not many RLs

i_mobile

I was taking a look at sales numbers too and was debating on whether to start a thread on this. The figures are:

E-Class 4,112
5-Series 3,190
GS 2,706
M 1,933
A6 1,061
RL 1,015

I personally don't care much about whether the RL or other cars in the segment sell well, as I just worry about my car, which I very much enjoy. But considering that the M comes in 5 trims and the RL in only 2, they don't seem too much apart to me (I could not find figures by trim to make a better comparison).

neuronbob

Those M numbers I promised are not broken down by trim level. Sorry!

September 2006: 1,933
September 2005: 2,351 -20.9%

2006 YTD: 19,474
2005 YTD: 17,235 +12.5%

PS--looking forward to A-Spec install (NEXT WEEK! Woohoo!), and even to the drive home from work today.

Ernie Golfs

Hey Bob,
By the time you're through modding your RL, It will be a $50k RL. I can't wait to see some pics.

jhr3uva90

I would like to see a five-year trend line. Last year was probably an unusually high sales year for the RL. This year seems to be more in line with previous years.

neuronbob

LOL, you're right! That'll be especially true if I decide to do a body kit from Japan.

I'm so excited to do the suspension mods......best bang for the buck with any car!

TSX69

Sold 731 units - which I believe the lowest I have seen in 1 month. Last November, it sold 1,298 resulting in a decline of 43.7%.

Sales for the year are 10,799, down 33.7%.

Tully44

I'm curious how many were 2006 vs 2007. And of those 2007 models, what was the breakdown between the three models. (a sad tally, either way).

Side note: The L.A. Auto Show began today thru the 10th and I know Acura heavily depends on the SoCal market. Come January, I"ll be curious to see what the sales numbers will be.

jhr3uva90

What were November numbers for the past 5 years (going back to 2001) instead of only comparing 2006 to 2005. What is the overall trend? Either way, I'm really not that disturbed. The RL might not be the car for the majority of the North American luxury market (I doubt if any Acura is), but it is the car for me.

acuralvr1

I understand that it's been a bad year for the car industry. There are so many choices in this class and yet no matter how hard they market they can't seem to sell them. Audi A6, BMW 5 series, MB, M35, RL, etc...............

jhr3uva90

Yes, sales of luxury cars have decreased this year, in genaral. The 5 Series and the E Class are doing well, but every other car in this class seems to be slipping.

super_call

Boy is it disappointing to see those RL sales.

The boys in charge can't be too excited about investing in this car for the MMC or even the next gen. They had a dog on their hands when the old RL got so little investment after initial design. If you had a minimum goal of 18,000 cars per year and you were at 2/3 of that number - how much would you invest?

I think the last chance to save the model is with the MMC. Realistically, sharpen up the sheetmetal - SOME style and put the MDX engine in it modified for reasonable perfomance. It is such a fine car in my personal opinion with only the need for a bit more torque down low.

But the market sure disagrees and eventually they are going to listen and conclude they just don't know what to do in this segment.

All those other models are doing well - both Lexus and Infiniti are hitting their year two numbers - and Lexus doesn't even seem to try. ALL the others have 8 cyclinders, so I don't think it is reasonable to talk about "various models" of the M. Does that mean we have 3 RL models now - Base, De-contented Base and Tech Package?

jhr3uva90

It depends on whom you call the "boys in charge." If you are talking about Acura, the North America based marketing company with no engineers or manufacturing plants of their own, who had almost no say in the development of this car, then they can just shrug their shoulders and say, "I told you so" to their corporate bosses at American Honda Motors. If you are talking about Honda Motor Corporation, the Japan based parent company of American Honda Motors, then they could say "Hey, at least we are maintaining economics of scale for this car by selling basically the same car around the world."

Let me it this way: the Acura RL's weak sales are similar to the Acura CL's weak sales a few years ago. The difference is that the CL was only sold in North America, so weak sales here meant certain death for the car. The RL, on the other hand, is sold on several continents as the Legend. The North American market is Honda's biggest market, but it isn't the only market for this car. Hopefully, global combined sales will be adequate enough to keep the Legend/RL alive.

Now let's compare the 2nd generation RL (the new one) with the 1st generation RL (the old one). After one unusually high year of sales, the new RL's sales have come down and are now basically in line with the old RL's sales. However, the old RL had its own unique platform, while the new RL uses the Global Mid-sized Platform, shared by most of Honda's sedans (and ALL of Acura's sedans). As a result, Honda Motor Corporation of Japan makes more money per unit on the new RL than the old RL. That factor could also help in keeping the car alive.

Oh, and let's discuss the vaunted Lexus. Lexus GS 300/350 sales are down -25.1% from last November, despite the new engine. And Lexus GS 430/450h sales are down -50.5% from last November, despite the addition of a new hybrid model. This is the 3rd generation of the GS and its sales are as disappointing as the first two generations, yet Toyota has not yet dropped the car. However, make no mistake: all those models are NOT "doing well."

And finally, let's discuss the V8 factor. Audi offers the A6 with a V6 or V8 engine, yet they only sold 814 A6 cars in November, barely more than the RL. Is it worth it for Honda to develop a V8 engine that at this time could only be used in one sedan because all the other Honda/Acura sedans are saddled with FWD? They might increase RL sales by 10%, which means they would have sold fewer than 80 extra cars in the US in November.

Acura might not know what to do in this segment. They might not even WANT this segment, but the segment is doing poorly, period. If you aren't BMW with the 5 Series, or Mercedes with the E Class, then you probably had a disappointing November.

neuronbob

Maybe you're right, jhr. Perhaps, like many other manufacturers, Acura is becoming more an SUV company. I wonder if that's why this particular segment of the market is doing badly, everyone is still hot for SUVs?

Who knows....

jhr3uva90

If you look at the new MDX's spectacular month, I would say that America has fallen back in love with the SUV. Here's another example: where would Caddy be without the Escalade?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Let me start by saying that I don't own an Acura RL. I just love Honda and its cars.

Anyways, the way I see it, the RL for this matter, is that Honda is using it for "testing purposes." So what I mean is that Honda doesn't really care that much about the sale number for the RL. Honda emphasizes more on making profit with other cars like the TSX and TL. Without the RL, Acura will not be a real luxury marque. It needs to have a high-end sedan like the RL. Let me put it this way, if BMW doesn't have the 7 series, or MB doesn't have the S class, then for sure people won't see them as some of the most prestigous brands.

The RL is like a showcase for Honda's technologies. Whenever there's new stuff coming out from Honda, it will most likely use it on the RL first (or NSX if it weren't dead). Things like the SH-AWD, and some other high-tech gizmo could only be found in the RL. This can help establish the image of Acura.

But then when you develop so many new things for only one model, you will not be very cost effective. While companies like BMW, MB, and Nissan are sharing parts, the RL is (or may be was?) unique. And the fact that RL is a low-volume car, this makes building cost even higher.

Anyways, back to the "testing purposes" topic, Honda needs to find out what people really like. They already didn't do so well with the 1st gen RL because it wasn't powerful enough and it's too conservative. With the 2nd gen RL, they added more power and made the car more exciting to drive. But the styling is still too bland for the majority of people (even though I like it very much). Not only that, but the car itself is too heavy due to the fact that it's fully loaded with everything as well as SH-AWD. Honda already put in a lot of lightweight materials. However, it would be better if it's around 100-200kg lighter. That would definitely help performance by a lot. If that's not possible, then at least try to shave 50kg and add some more hp and torque (by using the MDX engine?).

IMO with the RL can do 0-60 in 6 seconds flat, that would help its sale number a bit, and I suspect Acura will do that sooner or later. The thing is, some people can't accept the fact that the TL is faster than RL while paying for 12k more (I'm by no means dissing the RL as thats my dream car right now besides the NSX). The RL has great handling but it is lacking some power to compare with its competitors.

Even though the RL isn't so well in terms of sale numbers, it at least helps Honda fine tune some its new technologies and keeps Acura as a premium brand. Hopefully the next RL will correct the above flaws and become more successful. I think it will be easier as the expensive Sh-AWD systems are being made in larger scale now. Also a new and more powerful J37 engine is available now (just needs a bit of fine tuning to suit the RL) and this should bring cost down further more while making the RL faster. Not sure if Acura's gonna make these changes for the facelift (has there been a facelift already?) but if I were one of the guys working there that's what I would recommend.

Sorry for making this long post, hopefully my English is at least understandable.

jhr3uva90

I agree with iforyou mostly.

The RL/Legend is a sort of "test" car. New technologies such as SH-AWD are implemented in the RL first and then trickle down to other models. The fact that the RL is a low-volume car is actually an advantage in this regard. For example, what would have happened if SH-AWD had been in the MDX first and then the units malfunctioned like the trannies in the TL? That could have been costly for Honda. However, if you put SH-AWD in a low-volume car like the RL and the units malfunctioned, it wouldn't effect so many people and Honda would have had a couple of years to correct the problems before implementing SH-AWD on the MDX and other high-volume models. In that sense, I completely agree. I do disagree on some points, though.

For one thing, the RL does NOT compete with the 7 Series, S Class, A8 or similar cars. It never had and it probably never will. Its up to Honda (not Acura) to decide on whether they want to go there. And oh yeah, the masses of people who are not car enthusiasts would still see Mercedes and BMW as luxury cars, even without full-sized flagships, because they've been trained their entire lives to think of those brands as luxuries.

Next disagreement: the RL does not do much to help establish Acura as a luxury marquee. Killing the cheap RSX was a good first step, but there must be a TRUE flagship as a second step towards being taken seriously, even if NOBODY buys the flagship.

Next disagreement: the RL/Legend is fairly cost effective for Honda Motor Company (HMC), but it isn't that cost effective for Acura dealerships. The difference between invoice and MSRP all goes to the dealership. If the dealership has to sell the car for invoice, then that cuts into their money. However, it doesn't really hurt HMC unless the cars have to be sold for substantially less than invoice or if the cars don't sell at all (Acura CL). As I mentioned earlier, the new RL is actually more cost effective than its predecessor because the new one is based on the Global Mid-sized Platform. The fact that the new TL's are using Active Noise Cancellation and other RL features will help spread the costs for HMC. In addition, selling the same car world wide helps spread the costs, making the RL more cost effective. However selling the same car worldwide doesn't help Acura one iota since Acura (for the most part) only exists in North America.

Yes, the RL's styling is "too bland for the majority of the people" . . . in North America. Let's not forget that our American sense of style does not always apply to the rest of the world. If you read European reviews of the Legend, they tend to compliment the RL/Legend's styling. And I'm sure the Japanese find the car quite attractive. Have you ever wondered why U.S. designed cars rarely sell overseas (other than crappy reliability)? It has something to do with the fact that it's a big world out there, and not everyone has the same taste as we do. There's a reason why the TL, MDX, and RDX are designed in California: be we know us better than they do. And before you start screaming about the TSX being designed in Japan but selling well in the US, think about this: the TSX sells well in the US FOR AN ACURA. But what if the TSX sold in the US as what it really is, an Accord? Do you think it would sell as well as the version designed for us? Probably not. And before you start screaming about Lexus, they were designed in Japan but specifically for Americans. Do you think the Lexus RX300 was designed by Japanese people for Japanese people? Nope, it was designed for US soccer moms. Toyota is exceptional because they know us Americans better than we do.

And one more thing, those who care that the TL is a fraction of a second faster going from 0 to 60 aren't going to consider the RL anyway. And personally, I think some of them are unsophisticated drivers. Why? Because if they were that concerned about 0 to 6 speeds, then they should also be concerned about the torque steer that is inherent in the TL. Those folks should really stop pretending and consider a RWD car. In other words, if you want a sport sedan, get a REAL one like the BMW 3 Series or the Infiniti G35. If you want a real luxury Acura and not a "near-luxury" one then get an RL. It's the only luxury sedan Acura makes, and Acura didn't even make it.

Okay, back from by tangent. . . I agree with iforyou. Good writing!

super_call

This has to be one of the most thoughtful automotive forums out there!

I had a new 1993 Legend. I fell in love with the car and the brand.

The 1’st Gen RL was completely inexplicable to me.

I had waited for the 2’nd Gen RL several years into the tail of the 1’st Gen. I was slightly concerned with reliability in the first year, but in reality – I was quite pleased with the ’05 re-design.

By then, however, the market had spoken and I was hesitant to pull the trigger again by the resale values.

Finally, I went out and got myself a 2007 M35X last week.

Infiniti is an interesting comparison v Acura.

You know what their “Flagship” car is? Don’t have one. They actually suspended the Q as it was long in the tooth and not selling. They decided to NOT bring their top of the line car to the market this year and instead, re-design it and shoot for the stars.

The G is faster than the M – no problem, and no one REALLY does care. Different buyers.

The M is very nice, a solid RL competitor, it has defined positioning vs. Lexus (Drivers car v pure luxury car), Mercedes, Audi and BMW (good handling with less expensive and Japanese reliability). I’d love to see Acura compete against it with the RL positioned as “Excellent performer, a bit more luxurious”.

Acura built a brand and had a loyal customer (me). They still have someone who really likes the brand…they need to convert that to cash.

jhr3uva90

The first generation RL, like the second generation, was created with little consideration for the North American market. In addition, I'm not even sure if there was ANYTHING about the first generation that made it unique. I think Honda just wanted to see if they could make a "Lexus-type" car.

It is truly a shame that Acura lost so many Legend owners. However, I think they considered it a worthy sacrifice. And if November MDX sales are any indication, Acura is transitioning into an SUV company, since that is what we Americans apparently want.

Speaking of SUVs, Lexus is the top selling luxury brand in the US and has been for several years. Why? Mainly because Lexus has 3 separate product lines of SUVs, and that is what puts Lexus over the top. If you remove SUV sales and just count cars, the BMW is the top brand. I guess Acura saw that data and decided that SUVs were the way to go. Too bad their sport sedans have suffered as a result. 2007 TL Type S? Please! You can't put a 3.5 liter engine on a FWD car and call it a sports sedan. And please don't put SH-AWD on the next TL! If they do that, the next TL will likely be as heavy as the RL, which would hurt it as a sports sedan. Oh well, I guess that the "good old days" of the Legend and of Acura thinking about sports sedans is over. The era of the Acura SUV is upon us.

dwboston

The latest Acura TV spot showcasing the "holiday sales event" is interesting. At the end when they show all of the cars lined up outside the dealer, the models in the foreground are the TL, TSX , and MDX. The RL is barely visible and identifiable as an RL and the RDX is all the way in the back. Maybe there's some subliminal marketing going on that I'm missing, but wouldn't you want to showcase your newest model?

jhr3uva90

It seems to me that Acura plain old doesn't like the RL. Is it resentment? I don't know. Neither generation of RL got adequate promotion. Now, about the RDX, why did they put it in the back? Considering the unrealistic sales goal of 40,000 RDXs that Acura set, you'd think they would promote it as much as possible.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for reading and replying my post! You also brought up some good points that I didn't or forgot to mention about (a bit tired last night).

What you said in the first paragraph is very true, it would be a lot cheaper to recall and fix all RLs than TLs.

For your 2nd paragraph, I guess I wasn't being clear. Of course the RL does not compete with 7 series, S class, or A8. Size-wise, price-wise, and content-wise it's closer to the 5 series, E-class, and A6. But my point is that, without the RL, or in other words, if Acura were to use TL as their flagship model, then people would rank Acura even lower in the premium market. And I believe Acura wants to push te brand higher upmarket, closer to BMW and MB. I think for now, the goal is to be in the league of Lexus. I also agree that it's hard to change the thinking of people. It's just like it's hard to convince me to not like Honda anymore. Nonetheless, Acura/Honda can't just sit there and do nothing right? If they can't make the Acura higher up in the market this year, it's ok, but it must keep on trying.

True, building a true flagship, one that's above the RL to compete with the 7-series is necessary. I mean, for Lexus, without the LS, it would be just like Acura. If Honda could build a platform just for the RL and the one above it, that would help a bit.

I guess you misunderstood me with the cost-effective topic. When the the RL first came out, I believed it wasnt that cost-effective because of its many unique features such as the Sh-AWD. But eventually, as we can see, Honda is putting these to more cars. So, SH-AWD is now avail. to RDX and MDX, and then the 3.5L engine can be found in the TL-S (not too sure about the engines in Pilot and ridgeline though). So of course, it's more cost-effective now to build the RL. And my argument was that, with these new found savings, they might be able to invest in a better engine, such as developing/tuning the 3.7L engine for the RL, or even better, a whole new engine with all the goodies (DOHC, i-VTEC for both intake and exhaust sides, direct injection, etc). This IMO is another great way to show off Honda's reowned engine technology.

For your 5th paragraph, you also made some good points. And I'm well aware of the fact that the TSX is a European/Japanese Accord Type S. It's very true that people around the world have different taste. That's also why the European Civic is so much different that ours. They have a hatchback and we have a coupe. And please don't get me wrong, I love the RL's styling, again, it's my dream car. I especially like its front styling. I have drew a few pictures of it and are mounted on the walls in my bedroom. The RL is definitely a great car, that's why it has won car of the year in Japan and some other awards too. Also, I know that most of the cars we see here in NA are designed specifically for us. I mean the TL is one of the best selling near-luxury cars here, but in Japan, it didn't do so well under the name Honda Inspire. Let me put it this way, I saw more Skyline GTRs and NSXs and Supras there than than the TL in Japan.

And your last paragraph, I understand that most people who buy RLs are more mature. They care about refinement, features, comfort and some other things more than performance. However, what I was saying is, a little bit more in terms of performance won't hurt. Nowadays, a Camry or Altima V6 might even be faster than the RL. So what I would like to see is that, the RL, if possible, to add a little bit more power. The RL is adequately quick, but not fast enough yet. As the competition becomes tougher, it would be wise to just add more power. I mean like what you've said, people don't really care that much about the performance, but then they see that other cars in the segment are faster while returning better gas mileage, then that would make them rethink.

Once again, I must thank you for reading and replying my post. I DO really like the RL a lot and let me state this once again, it's one of my dream cars beside the NSX-R. Btw, as you can see, I'm only 20, so, there are a lot of things that I'm not sure of in the real world and so, I might be missing a whole lot of stuff but I'm willing to learn.

123456SPEED

Interesting read. I'd buy a coupe version of the RL.

Being a coupe driver has been hard, cause everytime I buy one they drop it! Prelude, Legend Coupes (I had 2), my current 03 CLS-6MT. Acura only sells sedans and SUVs now.

Acura is pushing away a 20 year customer, but to where?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol I feel sorry for you. Hopefully Acura will bring back a coupe in the near future. It's trying to go higher in the premium market yet they don't have a coupe to compete with BMW 3 series coupe and the soon-to-come Audi A5. But then again, that's not very profitable is it.....

jhr3uva90

I think Acura is has placed a priority on SUVs right now since, they sell in much higher volumes than coupes do in the US. Once they've got SUVs conquered, maybe they'll start making coupes again.

jhr3uva90

Iforyou, you did a great job! Keep on writing, and more importantly, keep on THINKING.

Someday, you might want to invest in Honda. I believe that having a passion for a product could lead to being than just a consumer, it could lead to buying some stock and being an investor, even if it is on a small scale.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Thanks jhr3uva90!

What I would really like to be working at Honda in my future when I graduate (or a Co-op position is good too). Unfortunately, I have no idea how to get a job there.

Also, I would like to start investing, too. But again, how? 20 years old isn't young and I think it's time to start planning these things. One of my friends have been investing for a year or 2 and even though he only invests a little, he makes some decent profit. He just got a laptop from the money he made in the summer.

jhr3uva90

It's good having friends who invest. You can learn from their mistakes!

neuronbob

The earlier you start investing, the earlier the magic of compounding interest will start working for you.

/hijack

jhr3uva90

I agree! I was 30 the first time I ever bought a share of stock. I wish I had done it earlier, if only for the experience!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Opps I didnt mean to get off topic here! But it seems like investing is the only way I could get my RL!!

jhr3uva90

Hell, that's how I got mine! Got lucky when I bought my condo. Best investment I ever made.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I should read more stories on successful people haha!

123456SPEED

Sorry if off topic - but I think Acura could make more money off a new coupe than any RL (with Navi or not). Coupes are not expected to be the big moneymaker, they complement the entire line-up. I actually think Acura could cash in on coupe sales if they follow the same plan as the TL, loaded and lower priced than the supposed competition.

Could you invision Infiniti without the G35 coupe, BMW without the 3 series coupe, or Benz witthout their numerous coupes and 2 door cars?

OK, coupe-less rant over. I like the RL, just wish it was sportier with 2 doors!

as far as investing- I benefitted from the crazy AustinTX land rush, my condo is worth 4x what I bought it for 15 years ago. Good for sellers but not buyers!

jhr3uva90

Umm, Acura already tried that strategy with a coupe called the CL. I didn't work.

123456SPEED

Acura's coupe buyers were spoiled by the excellent Legend Coupes.

The follow-up, the pitiful 1G CL (1997?) scared most coupe buyers away and they never came back. If the 2G CLS (2001) was a 6MT and styled more aggressively they would have sold more. 6MT was added as a last ditch effort in 03, too late.

IMO, the NSX, Prelude, and Legend Coupes are still hallmarks.

jhr3uva90

How many coupes are being sold overall? It is hard to tell because most coupes carry the same name as their sedan counterparts and rarely are the coupe sales broken out from the sedan sales. However, many of the non-subcompact coupes from many manufacturers have been cancelled. I just don't think there is a large market for non-subcompact coupes in the US anymore, not in the age of the SUV.

gavine

I see a lot of Toyota Solaras on the road....this is a perfect example of using a separate name for the couple. I don't think a "Camry Coupe" would appeal to a coupe demographic as much as "Solara" does.