CL6

http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=16

Or click this:
http://www.epinions.com/content_170604531332

neuronbob

From the first article:

OUCH! This guy's perception of what a luxury car should be is pretty clear. No V8 or RWD, no luxury.

The second article is old but could be relevant. The price analysis was interesting. I purchased my 3G TL for MSRP (I was one of the first to own one), $35k at the time, and the RL for $42k, so my price delta was $7k and I think the RL was certainly worth that over the TL simply to avoid the few issues with build quality I had.

P.S. I corrected the spelling in the title.

jhr3uva90

"If Acura and Volvo weren’t going to swing for the fences, why did they bother?"

Simple answer: because it is about PROFIT, not perception or prestige, or even market share. Acura has made a nice chunk of money for Honda over the past 20 years because Acura's cars have been profitable. Why? Because Acura's most popular cars have shared platforms, which spreads fixed costs. Financially speaking, Honda might be able to make enough money per car by sticking with the same FWD platform used for the Accord to compensate for sell fewer cars and having lower market share as a result. Infiniti, on the other hand, was probably selling fewer cars AND making think profits on the cars they sold, so they were more justified in switching platforms.

The current RL might not be selling more units than its predecessor, but it is probably making more money per unit for HMC (not the dealerships) because now that the RL is on the Global Mid-size Platform it costs less to manufacture.

The blind pursuit of market share doomed dot com companies in the 1990's and is killing GM and Ford now. It's about PROFIT, ultimately, at least as far as shareholders are concerned.

Ken1997TL

The KA platform that the Legend and 1st gen RL used was unique and shared only engines and transmissions with the 1st gen 3.2 TL, no other cars. And even then, these were at different model years, so the costs weren't reduced very much.

neuronbob

The current KB platform is the most unique use of the global midsize platform, IMHO.

If only they'd put that Mugen-modded V8 into it....another thread from this morning reminded me of that hot car.

jhr3uva90

I would love to see that, also. I think people would bitch about the price, though. You can't make some people happy.

neuronbob

Too true. If a Mugen Acura RL appeared with that big-a$$ed engine, it could be value-priced at $50k and people would still find a way to diss the price. I, for one, would pay full price for that puppy.

Or, at least Mugen should make the engine swap kit possible, the way other tuners do for Civic enthusiasts.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

You know it really pisses me off how people say that about honda and stuff. Toyoata can make 80K cars why cant honda? Ford makes jaguar so why cant honda make acuras? It also really bothers me how people buy the lexus over the acura just becuase they want people to know how rich they are. Like ok great you bought a car you might not have liked as much but at least people know your a rich person.

I dont own an RL but im really pulling for the car to be a sucess. I think its a HUGE improvement over the older modles and I think it is a very nice car. I would really like to see acura build up its imangie and have people buy the acura for that reason. If I was in the price range for a 50k sedan i would most likely take the RL because its diffenently my favorite. Caranddriver.com even put it as 2nd in there test (only losing to infinit) but it beat jaguar, bmw, audi, benz, etc. So like I said I really hope the RL becomes a popular car because it deserves it.

Rob144

Kind of the standard discourse about the RL.

I just think back to the NSX when it came out. It was seen as a reach for a company like Honda, and it really didn't sell very well.

Now that it's out of production, people can look back and see what a groundbreaking vehicle it was: an everyday supercar.
While this RL might not reach that lofty status, it really is an everyday supersedan. Maybe not groundbreaking power (same knock on the NSX), but an overally driving experience that can't be matched.

Rob144

CL6

Considering Acura was not an established brand and the NSX was the most expensive car ever offered by a Japanese company and that for the first few years there were $30,000 mark-ups on it, I think it sold very well. But, after 5 years or so when the car was not really updated and the competition improved, sales did decline.

But you can't say it didn't sell very well:

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/General/...ionnumbers.htm

jhr3uva90

Two questions about the NSX's early sales:
1) Yes it sold at a markup, but how many NSX's were sold relative to competitors?
2) How many people bought NSX's in the early days at a markup because of the novelty of a Japanese sports car? Perhaps sales started to drop once the novelty wore off. Also, there have been several Japanese luxury sedans, so such a car would not have that novelty factor.

Rob144

Given the type of company that Honda is, cars like the NSX, Legend (RL), and even the S2000 really pushed their boundaries. One of the unique things about Honda is how well their cars stand the test of time.

I just got through reading EVO (a British car mag), and they polled their readers for their 10 best cars ever. 2 of the top ten were Hondas - the NSX/NSXR, and the Integra Type R. That put these cars in the company of the McClaren F1, Porsche GT3, Veyron, F40, among others. Reading about these Hondas and their sublime balance and capabilities simply reminded me of the qualities of the RL.

If the reviewer only sees luxury cars as needing a V8, or flashy looks, then their thinking is only skin deep.

Rob144

CL6

Sounds like a very interesting article. Honda has some great products but, speaking to the Type-R Integra, the RSX should have been brought over here as the Type-R and so should the NSX. I just can't understand why these variants are left out of our market.

Looking at the Australian Honda website about the RL aka Legend I noticed that front and side parking assist was available as an accessory. I wonder why these are not sold here?

PortlandRL

I don't like this guy one bit. I used to do reviews for Epinions but I quit every time he would berate me about everything that was wrong with my review. And it wasn't constructive criticism, either. He came off as if what he said was God's word. Clearly, this guy thinks he craps solid gold or something.... Sorry for the negativity but he can shove TrueDelta up his .

RL06tech

Actually if you read the RL review itself, its quite positive and IMO pretty acurate. The fact is that the RL is a plusher more refined iteration of the TL (sizewise) that does not "feel" as sporting though they perform similarly. One I replaced my 6spd TL tires for a set of PS2 the sporting differences were actually very noticeable. It wasn't till I drove the PAX RL and noticed its improved handling over the base version that I was compelled to buy one. There is no doubt however that the manual TL is considerably a more engaging driving machine.

CL6

I wish it had a 6 speed! That would awaken the beast within.

VOdoc

I read the truedelta article and was underwhelmed...he's kind of damning with faint praise. Contrast with CNet's take on the '06 RL: http://reviews.cnet.com/2006_Acura_R...-31787871.html

Speaking of the beast within, I have made an effort lately to drive with more "spirit" to train the adaptive tranny and throttle controller. This morning I needed to stomp on it to get out of a tight spot in wall-to-wall freeway traffic. The beast instantly revved into VTEC territory, rocketing me past a slow-moving SUV! I would describe the engine sound as more of an authoritative "snarl" than a "growl"--but then again, as so many have pointed out, it's not a V-8!

mkaresh

I'm sorry my comments on your reviews at Epinions didn't come across as constructive criticism, as I generally intend them to be. Please do contact me, as I'd like to take another look at your reviews and my comments. I'd like to suggest that we not hash this out here, so as not to drag the thread OT.

mkaresh

Actually, the Volvo has a V8. The larger problems with the Acura are the amount of interior room--too close to the TL--and the overly bland, conservative styling. Judging from their recent concepts, Acura won't make the latter mistake again.

I also think they should have never dumped "Legend" for "RL." Legend was an awesome name for a car.

FWIW, one of my closest friends recently bought an RL. His previous car was a BMW 330xi. But a large part of the appeal was the huge discount he got on it. Paid somewhere in the low 40s. At that price, it's a great buy. At 50, not so much.

CL6

I'm sure he did. Too bad Acura will never become a true luxury brand as long as 'Acura' and 'big discount' are used in the same breath.

neuronbob

I think many of us recent converts would agree with you as we purchased the car in that price range. It's the same price range as the M35x (pre-options for the M).

It's pretty clear to most of us that Acura has given up on this car. I am hopeful that they have an RL replacement in the works that Americans will actually buy, ala 3G TL.

I totally agree that Acura should have kept the "Legend" name. Very bad marketing move on their part. i understand the alpha name thing and emphasizing brand, but thee marketing has been so lousy that the intent of the name change is meaningless.

mkaresh

They showed a luxury sedan concept in LA, so they're working on something. It was not attractive, but it also wasn't boring. Since their recent production designs have been quite attractive, I believe that the next production RL will be much more interesting to look at, and attractive.

Note that I only find the RL's exterior boring. I think the interior is just about the best in the segment. Excellent styling and materials. If the exterior was as sharp as the interior, it would sell much better.

Info and photos on the concept:

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/29/l...sedan-concept/

Way back Acura showed a concept with similarly pointed ends. It became the first CL coupe.

VOdoc

I'd seen the concept photos...to my eye it's waaaaay over the top (as concept cars usually are). All about bling, weird angles and cartoonish proportions. Kind of a hideous melange of a Bangled 5-series Beemer, a blingy Chrysler 300 pimpmobile, an Infiniti FX35 clownmobile, and an artist's conception of the Batmobile. Maybe a little Stealth fighter thrown in there for good measure. Definitely not boring. Also not attractive.

Thanks, I'll keep my '06 Legend--er, RL.

jhr3uva90

Acura didn't want the new RL in the first place, in my opinion. But I guess everyone already knows that. Anyway, most of the cars in this price range have suffered decreasing sales. BMW 5 Series and Mercedes E Class are the biggest exceptions. Perhaps Acura should stay out of this segment until there is another real estate boom dot com boom or some other kind of boom so that more people can spend $45K+ on cars.

Regarding the name change, I think we would all love to have the Legend badge on our cars. However, that really goes against what luxury brands are doing. For example, the "Seville" name has been around far longer than the "Legend" name, yet Caddy is willing to scrap that name for "STS." Apparently, the new name hasn't really hurt sales. Conversely, I don't think changing RL back to Legend will help sales.

The market is slowing down, period. Sales of the vaunted Lexus GS are falling like winter snow. Audi is struggling, Jaguar is struggling, the great Carlos Ghosn has declared Nissan to be in crisis (that includes Infiniti). Unlike some other luxury brands, Acura WILL ride out the storm and the RL will most likely survive. And don't worry about that hideous Acura concept car; HMC in Japan will never accept that design as their next Legend, let alone a more upscale car.

And one more thing about the current RL's design: I predict that the "plain" design will age exceptionally well, like a well-tailored understated blue suit. The current RL's design is the TRUE heir to the 1999 - 2003 TL, and those cars still look good. Trust me, wait 4 years from now and then look back on the 2006 RL vs. the 2006 Infiniti M or the Chrysler 300. The RL will look the least dated. In the long term, the RL's styling will be a triumph of subtlety over ostentatiousness.

GoHawks

I tend to agree, look at some of the past Acura designs

2nd gen Legends (Coupes still turn heads and are one of my all-time favorites)
Vigors
1st gen TLs
2nd gen TL

None of those cars had shocking over the top designs, but if you see one on the road today, they still look good.

The problem is that people don't buy cars based on how they'll look 6 years from now, but how they feel about them purchasing them new.

I really don't understand why people view the current Infiniti M or Lexus GS anymore daring (design-wise) than the RL. The styling is definitely different, but not MORE exciting. IMO

zippyh

Funny, my previous car was a 330xi and a large part of the appeal of the RL was the huge discount.

mkaresh

The Lexus GS has never sold well, in three iterations.

I personally don't find the M attractive. Too bloated.

But, as I say in the review, I find the 3G Acura TL very attractive. I've wondered why the RL isn't similarly stylish (yes, I know, JDM tastes.) Do RL owners find the TL's styling too trendy?

At the same time, the RL interior takes far more stylistic risks than the exterior. This is the opposite of what you'll find in many cars; often point want something striking on the exterior but a conservative interior. Why isn't the exterior as stylish as the interior? Fantastic interior.

The thing I point out in the Volvo/Acura piece is that both cars are their marque's flagships. This isn't the case with the 5/E/GS/M/etc. The flagship should look like, well, a flagship. And as the largest sedan in the line it should have a spacious rear seat.

That's all.

phins2rt

I think that's what mkaresh meant. The person received a good discount on the RL, not the BMW. At 50K, it is overpriced for the market (the RL that is). YMMV.

mkaresh

I don't think he misunderstood what I wrote. I think he found it funny that he'd done the same thing for the same reason.

zippyh, that BMW wasn't dark gray with red leather, was it?

phins2rt

I was going to edit mine to see if he was agreeing with you but I waited too long.

VOdoc

Me neither. Someone here said it looks like a G35 with anasarca ( = total body swelling from excess fluid). Consumer Reports loved the thing, gave it 97 of 100 compared with 76 for the 2G RL. Driving home one day last week I saw five M35s, one M45, innumerable 3G TLs and no RLs, as usual. Apparently the USDM prefers edgier exterior styling. Fine with me, I prefer exclusivity and a car that will age nicely. The TL was starting to look a little bit boy-racer to me. I traded mine for the RL a couple of months ago, and yes, I got a killer discount.

neuronbob

Wholeheartedly agree. I love the exterior design, it is not boring, and (again) it looks nothing like an Accord. If I didn't love the exterior design of the RL, I wouldn't have bought one. (As regulars here will attest, I also love the "boy racer/BMW" motif in the 3G TL.)

I like the M, too, and have since it was introduced as the Nissan Fuga in the JDM a while back. Especially with those double spoke big 19" wheels.

To each, his own, I guess.

mkaresh

Meant to mention earlier that I really liked the design of the 2G Legend, both coupe and sedan. Loved how they arranged the powertrain to enable a very short front overhang and the slender body. The sedan was too subtle for most people, though. And the car was totally overshadowed by the Lexus LS, which initially wasn't much more expensive.

zippyh

Exactly. I thought it was funny that some one else had traded in the same car for the same reason.

My 330xi was blue with brown/black interior.

I kind of miss the sportyness and stick shift of the 330 but I don't regret getting the RL.

mkaresh

My friend doesn't seem to miss his BMW one bit. He generally drives straight boring roads to and from work. Not much use for a BMW in that situation.

RL06tech

Just checked ou the S80 at the Chicago show. It almost heresy to put the RL and s80 in the same breath. The S80 is true crap.

mkaresh

Care to go into more detail?

FWIW, I wasn't evaluating how the two cars compare, only noting the similarities between them.

neuronbob

The 2G Legend was hot. Still is, especially in coupe form. I agree 100% with you, including with your assessment about the Lexus, which was on the ascent at the time the 2G Legend was out.

NavyDoc333

I was just talking to a friend of mine who drives a 2004 330i pretty loaded with sports package..etc. He paid 48K. The IS350 was in the mid 40's. In that price range... the RL kills. I am willing to bet that with the deep discounts of 2006, the RL had more buyers that started looking in the 30k range... and decided to pay a little more for the RL...than it had who started looking in the 50K range..and decided to pick it up for a bargin. At least that was my situation