First Post/New Member/PAX Tires
09-23-2010, 12:28 PM
#1
Cruisin'
Thread Starter
First Post/New Member/PAX Tires
Good afternoon!
I am the proud new owner of a 2006 RL with Tech Package.
And suddenly I find myself needing to replace some unobtanium run-flat tires!
The local Acura dealer treated me like a leper when I asked about getting new PAX tires or replacing the wheels altogether. That pretty much settles in my mind that I will use the resources on this forum to de-PAX ASAP but I want to make sure I have the most current info.
Has anyone been able to put on new PAX tires recently and what was the cost?
TIA
-dave
I am the proud new owner of a 2006 RL with Tech Package.
And suddenly I find myself needing to replace some unobtanium run-flat tires!
The local Acura dealer treated me like a leper when I asked about getting new PAX tires or replacing the wheels altogether. That pretty much settles in my mind that I will use the resources on this forum to de-PAX ASAP but I want to make sure I have the most current info.
Has anyone been able to put on new PAX tires recently and what was the cost?
TIA
-dave
09-23-2010, 02:22 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Good afternoon!
I am the proud new owner of a 2006 RL with Tech Package.
And suddenly I find myself needing to replace some unobtanium run-flat tires!
The local Acura dealer treated me like a leper when I asked about getting new PAX tires or replacing the wheels altogether. That pretty much settles in my mind that I will use the resources on this forum to de-PAX ASAP but I want to make sure I have the most current info.
Has anyone been able to put on new PAX tires recently and what was the cost?
TIA
-dave
I am the proud new owner of a 2006 RL with Tech Package.
And suddenly I find myself needing to replace some unobtanium run-flat tires!
The local Acura dealer treated me like a leper when I asked about getting new PAX tires or replacing the wheels altogether. That pretty much settles in my mind that I will use the resources on this forum to de-PAX ASAP but I want to make sure I have the most current info.
Has anyone been able to put on new PAX tires recently and what was the cost?
TIA
-dave
09-23-2010, 02:28 PM
#3
Safety Car
Yes, and for reasonable quality wheels, about $2000, not including the spare... Check out the Tire Rack for a quick sampling of packages available. The Tire Rack is not the ultimate solution, but they have a good website with lots of info. Do not replace with 17" wheels. Go for 18" wheels and keep them about 25 lbs in weight. You will have more choice in tires with 18". And your PAX are the equivalent of 18" tires anyway.
I will post some additional information I wrote some time ago, just on the dePAXing in the next message.
I will post some additional information I wrote some time ago, just on the dePAXing in the next message.
09-23-2010, 02:34 PM
#4
Safety Car
This is something I never quite finished writing, but may be helpful.
[B]DE-PAXING MICHELIN PAX™ SYSTEM RUN FLAT TIRES (REPLACING THE PAX™SYSTEM WITH CONVENTIONAL WHEELS AND TIRES)[/B]
Second Generation Acura RL
Applies only to KB-1 (2005-2008)
A small percentage of the highest trim level 2G RL’s (2006-2008) were equipped with three optional features Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) / Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) / PAX™ System Run Flat Tire System. This trim level was usually identified as ACC/CMBS/PAX.
The Michelin PAX™ System Run Flat Tire System is a proprietary technology developed by Michelin to address the safety concerns associated with under inflated tires and out right tire failures. The optional factory supplied PAX™ System has been robustly designed to run flat for 125 miles at 50 mph with little handling degradation. A conventional wheel and tire would be shredded in less than one mile at half that speed, to say nothing of the handling issues associated with running on a conventional flat tire.
While the PAX™ technology was licensed to other tire manufacturers such as Goodyear, Toyo, Yokohama, etc., the technology never really took off. Michelin was the only manufacturer to really design and sell these tires and wheels. The new PAX™ technology was also expensive to replace and required special machinery and training, so that not just any tire shop could service and/or replace the tires.
Primarily as a result of extreme customer unhappiness with the life expectancy, cost and hassle factor associated with the optional Michelin Energy LX4 PAX™ System tires supplied as standard equipment on the Honda Odyssey Touring edition, a class action law suit was initiated and eventually settled (http://www.sfmslaw.com/pages/cases.php?id=343). While anecdotally, the 2G RL equipped with Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 PAX™ tires never experienced the sorts of premature wear problems seen with the PAX™ equipped Odysseys, but the 2G RL PAX™ tires were also included in the class action. In the end, the settlement provided for an extension of the warranty on Michelin PAX™ tires, a nominal $110 rebate for a conventional spare tire kit, or a $300 coupon toward the purchase of a new Honda or Acura vehicle without PAX™ tires.
See Wikipedia for additional information and links to the manufacturer’s web sites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelin_PAX_System
So practically speaking, why not get rid of the PAX™ and swap them out for conventional wheels and tires? Here is the official reason:
American Honda Motors (which includes the Acura brand) specifically recommends against replacement of the Michelin PAX™ System tires and to do anything that can compromise the safety of the vehicle and its occupants.
American Honda strongly recommends that you replace the original PAX tires only with new PAX tires of the same size and speed rating. Using any non-PAX tire/wheel assemblies on a vehicle originally designed for PAX tires poses significant safety concerns and is not recommended or approved by American Honda.
On vehicles designed to use the PAX System, if the air pressure in a tire drops significantly, a message appears on the multi-information display that tells the driver it is OK to keep driving. This message is given because a PAX tire can be driven on even when it is significantly under inflated or flat. However, this message will appear even if the vehicle is subsequently outfitted with conventional wheels and tires. Driving on under inflated conventional tires can result in a sudden catastrophic tire failure and corresponding loss of control. Additionally, the ride and handling characteristics of the vehicle may be adversely affected since its design was optimized for PAX System tire and wheel assemblies.
Any person or business that installs a conventional tire/wheel assembly on a vehicle equipped with the PAX System does so at their own risk and is solely responsible for any loss or damage resulting from the modification.
Anecdotal accounts of 2G RL owners who have replaced their Michelin PAX™ System tires can be found on the internet. The PAX™ tires installed on the 2G RL are equivalent to Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 245/45-18 V- rated tires on 18-inch alloy wheels, and so any of the fitment guidance offered for Acura branded, or aftermarket conventional wheels and the appropriate sized tires would seem to work. Users have reported dramatically different (usually better) handling results, primarily because the Michelin PAX Grand Touring All Season type tires could be replaced with higher performance (more grippy) tires.
However, because Acura has not offered a path to change the 2G RL computer software in models originally equipped with PAX™ tires, there is a real safety hazard if the driver is unaware that the car is no longer equipped with PAX™ tires. If air pressure in a tire drops significantly on a vehicle designed to use a PAX™ system, a message appears on the multi-information display telling the driver it is OK to keep driving on the PAX™ wheel. This is because a PAX™ tire can be driven on even when it is significantly under inflated or flat. This message will appear even if the vehicle is subsequently outfitted with conventional wheels and tires. Therefore if this message appears after De-PAXing you should treat and address the issue as you would a conventional wheel and tire setup. You will no longer be able to drive safely on severely under inflated or flat conventional tires.
De-PAXing could become a potential liability issue when it comes time to sell the car, and it is possible that you will not be able to sell the car because an original manufacturer designed safety system has been permanently disabled.
If you do De-PAX, it may be a good idea to keep the original PAX™ system so you can later sell the car with the “as originally equipped” safety system intact.
If you do De-PAX the car, it is also advisable to add a spare tire. The trunk will fit a compact spare, but does not fit a full sized spare. You will need the following items in order to do so, which may cost in excess of $500 from Acura internet parts houses, not including the cost of the temporary spare tire, which can be difficult to source. Your most economical route is to go through a salvage yard, at least for the spare tire and wheel.
• Trunk Spacer Assembly (Part Number: 84542-SJA-A00) this is the Styrofoam insert that holds the tools, and replaces the original PAX™ system equipped cars Styrofoam insert that does not allow for spare tire placement.
• Adapter - Spare Tire (74651-S2X-003)
• Bolt - Spare Tire (74652-SDA-003
• Label - Spare Tire Adapter - Not really needed but cheap (74653-SJA-003)
• Disk Aluminum Wheel (this is the spare) - 17x4T (42700-SJA-J51)
• Spare Tire T155/70D17 (hard to find, some dealers claim not sell it, many tire retailers say go to the dealer, and it can be hard to find at the Tire Rack)
• Valve stem for spare (installed by the tire shop)
[B]DE-PAXING MICHELIN PAX™ SYSTEM RUN FLAT TIRES (REPLACING THE PAX™SYSTEM WITH CONVENTIONAL WHEELS AND TIRES)[/B]
Second Generation Acura RL
Applies only to KB-1 (2005-2008)
A small percentage of the highest trim level 2G RL’s (2006-2008) were equipped with three optional features Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) / Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) / PAX™ System Run Flat Tire System. This trim level was usually identified as ACC/CMBS/PAX.
The Michelin PAX™ System Run Flat Tire System is a proprietary technology developed by Michelin to address the safety concerns associated with under inflated tires and out right tire failures. The optional factory supplied PAX™ System has been robustly designed to run flat for 125 miles at 50 mph with little handling degradation. A conventional wheel and tire would be shredded in less than one mile at half that speed, to say nothing of the handling issues associated with running on a conventional flat tire.
While the PAX™ technology was licensed to other tire manufacturers such as Goodyear, Toyo, Yokohama, etc., the technology never really took off. Michelin was the only manufacturer to really design and sell these tires and wheels. The new PAX™ technology was also expensive to replace and required special machinery and training, so that not just any tire shop could service and/or replace the tires.
Primarily as a result of extreme customer unhappiness with the life expectancy, cost and hassle factor associated with the optional Michelin Energy LX4 PAX™ System tires supplied as standard equipment on the Honda Odyssey Touring edition, a class action law suit was initiated and eventually settled (http://www.sfmslaw.com/pages/cases.php?id=343). While anecdotally, the 2G RL equipped with Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 PAX™ tires never experienced the sorts of premature wear problems seen with the PAX™ equipped Odysseys, but the 2G RL PAX™ tires were also included in the class action. In the end, the settlement provided for an extension of the warranty on Michelin PAX™ tires, a nominal $110 rebate for a conventional spare tire kit, or a $300 coupon toward the purchase of a new Honda or Acura vehicle without PAX™ tires.
See Wikipedia for additional information and links to the manufacturer’s web sites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelin_PAX_System
So practically speaking, why not get rid of the PAX™ and swap them out for conventional wheels and tires? Here is the official reason:
American Honda Motors (which includes the Acura brand) specifically recommends against replacement of the Michelin PAX™ System tires and to do anything that can compromise the safety of the vehicle and its occupants.
American Honda strongly recommends that you replace the original PAX tires only with new PAX tires of the same size and speed rating. Using any non-PAX tire/wheel assemblies on a vehicle originally designed for PAX tires poses significant safety concerns and is not recommended or approved by American Honda.
On vehicles designed to use the PAX System, if the air pressure in a tire drops significantly, a message appears on the multi-information display that tells the driver it is OK to keep driving. This message is given because a PAX tire can be driven on even when it is significantly under inflated or flat. However, this message will appear even if the vehicle is subsequently outfitted with conventional wheels and tires. Driving on under inflated conventional tires can result in a sudden catastrophic tire failure and corresponding loss of control. Additionally, the ride and handling characteristics of the vehicle may be adversely affected since its design was optimized for PAX System tire and wheel assemblies.
Any person or business that installs a conventional tire/wheel assembly on a vehicle equipped with the PAX System does so at their own risk and is solely responsible for any loss or damage resulting from the modification.
Anecdotal accounts of 2G RL owners who have replaced their Michelin PAX™ System tires can be found on the internet. The PAX™ tires installed on the 2G RL are equivalent to Michelin Pilot HX MXM4 245/45-18 V- rated tires on 18-inch alloy wheels, and so any of the fitment guidance offered for Acura branded, or aftermarket conventional wheels and the appropriate sized tires would seem to work. Users have reported dramatically different (usually better) handling results, primarily because the Michelin PAX Grand Touring All Season type tires could be replaced with higher performance (more grippy) tires.
However, because Acura has not offered a path to change the 2G RL computer software in models originally equipped with PAX™ tires, there is a real safety hazard if the driver is unaware that the car is no longer equipped with PAX™ tires. If air pressure in a tire drops significantly on a vehicle designed to use a PAX™ system, a message appears on the multi-information display telling the driver it is OK to keep driving on the PAX™ wheel. This is because a PAX™ tire can be driven on even when it is significantly under inflated or flat. This message will appear even if the vehicle is subsequently outfitted with conventional wheels and tires. Therefore if this message appears after De-PAXing you should treat and address the issue as you would a conventional wheel and tire setup. You will no longer be able to drive safely on severely under inflated or flat conventional tires.
De-PAXing could become a potential liability issue when it comes time to sell the car, and it is possible that you will not be able to sell the car because an original manufacturer designed safety system has been permanently disabled.
If you do De-PAX, it may be a good idea to keep the original PAX™ system so you can later sell the car with the “as originally equipped” safety system intact.
If you do De-PAX the car, it is also advisable to add a spare tire. The trunk will fit a compact spare, but does not fit a full sized spare. You will need the following items in order to do so, which may cost in excess of $500 from Acura internet parts houses, not including the cost of the temporary spare tire, which can be difficult to source. Your most economical route is to go through a salvage yard, at least for the spare tire and wheel.
• Trunk Spacer Assembly (Part Number: 84542-SJA-A00) this is the Styrofoam insert that holds the tools, and replaces the original PAX™ system equipped cars Styrofoam insert that does not allow for spare tire placement.
• Adapter - Spare Tire (74651-S2X-003)
• Bolt - Spare Tire (74652-SDA-003
• Label - Spare Tire Adapter - Not really needed but cheap (74653-SJA-003)
• Disk Aluminum Wheel (this is the spare) - 17x4T (42700-SJA-J51)
• Spare Tire T155/70D17 (hard to find, some dealers claim not sell it, many tire retailers say go to the dealer, and it can be hard to find at the Tire Rack)
• Valve stem for spare (installed by the tire shop)
09-23-2010, 03:46 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Chas' post is right on and very informative.
Here is a post I made in a PAX-related thread in the Tire forum above dealing with cost of de-PAXing vs. buying new PAX tires:
Here is a post I made in a PAX-related thread in the Tire forum above dealing with cost of de-PAXing vs. buying new PAX tires:
If you intend to keep the car long-term, it may make sense to de-PAX. You will need new wheels, tires, TPMS sensors, lugnuts, and a spare tire kit and jack, which will all likely run you $2500 or so. Most of those are one-time costs, so next time around when it comes to change tires you're looking at $800-$1200 depending on what tires you opt for. So basically 2 complete PAX tire changes are roughly the same cost as de-PAXing then changing tires again. After that de-PAXing is cheaper.
So, do you intend to keep the car for 3 more full sets of tires? There is also the issue of the low tire pressure display in the PAX-equipped cars. When a PAX tire loses pressue, you get a warning in the MID with a mileage countdown indicating that it's safe to drive for x more miles on the PAX tire. That could be really dangerous for a de-PAXed car if the driver is not aware of the situation. Acura can't/won't re-program the PAX cars to change the warning.
Outside of the cost, I don't mind the PAX tires at all. They are effectively 18" tires and perform better than the stock Michelins. And don't go through the dealer, find a Town Fair Tire or another local tire dealer with PAX equipment and go directly there. The Acura dealer will likely charge a mark-up if you go through them.
So, do you intend to keep the car for 3 more full sets of tires? There is also the issue of the low tire pressure display in the PAX-equipped cars. When a PAX tire loses pressue, you get a warning in the MID with a mileage countdown indicating that it's safe to drive for x more miles on the PAX tire. That could be really dangerous for a de-PAXed car if the driver is not aware of the situation. Acura can't/won't re-program the PAX cars to change the warning.
Outside of the cost, I don't mind the PAX tires at all. They are effectively 18" tires and perform better than the stock Michelins. And don't go through the dealer, find a Town Fair Tire or another local tire dealer with PAX equipment and go directly there. The Acura dealer will likely charge a mark-up if you go through them.
09-26-2010, 07:03 PM
#7
Cruisin'
Thread Starter
Thanks!
Thanks for the info gentlemen and taking time to rehash some old news. I had read some of the postings but it is good to know the info remains current.
The price tag on 4 tires is absurd. Has anyone done it for less?
Also, any thoughts on carrying Fix-a-Flat or some other product vs. the spare? I can think of a few better ways to spend $500.
The price tag on 4 tires is absurd. Has anyone done it for less?
Also, any thoughts on carrying Fix-a-Flat or some other product vs. the spare? I can think of a few better ways to spend $500.
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09-26-2010, 07:20 PM
#8
Safety Car
The best way to get a spare is from an auto salvage yard. They have nationwide networks and it should cost under $200 to get one.
Do not use fix a flat. It will mess up your TPMS big time. Read the OM on that one.
Do not use fix a flat. It will mess up your TPMS big time. Read the OM on that one.
09-26-2010, 07:59 PM
#10
Cruisin'
Thread Starter
Forgot about the TPMS. Thanks.
I appreciate the reminder, but buying tires with 30% tread is NOT a recipe for success in a NY Thruway Winter!!
I appreciate the reminder, but buying tires with 30% tread is NOT a recipe for success in a NY Thruway Winter!!
09-26-2010, 09:07 PM
#11
Racer
I missed a post I think. Did you already talk with the seller? Are they PAX or non-PAX wheels? It seems to me that with the prices involved someone with PAX wheels would want non-PAX OEM wheels so they could buy less expensive non-PAX tires. $1800 for tires is outrageous as is $2000 for wheels and then buy new tires too.
09-27-2010, 10:54 AM
#12
Safety Car
Yes, good catch..what I meant was $2000 for a nice wheel and tire package, including TPMS.
I have no idea why you all could not read my mind and understand what I meant to say!
Sorry about the confusion...
I have no idea why you all could not read my mind and understand what I meant to say!
Sorry about the confusion...
12-24-2010, 07:45 PM
#13
1st Gear
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Could you share the mileage you had on the original PAX Tires? I bought my 2006 RL w/Tech Pack with 60500 mileage a month ago. I have no idea if the previous owner had replaced the tires once. Now the tires have little thread depth left. I live in Minnesota; my car worked fine in recent snow storms and road condition. I am very happy with its performance. But I believe I should replace the tires soon. I am thinking to de-PAX but want to read other owners' comments before I make the decision.
12-28-2010, 02:00 PM
#14
Instructor
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Lowest cost solution would be a set of 2009-2010 take-offs. Can be found occasionally on E-Bay by Acura dealers in the $800-$1000 price range, for what are essentially brand new wheel assembles (including TMPS and center caps). That's where I got mine and have never looked back.
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