Feeler for Custom header made??
03-18-2008, 10:28 PM
#1
Feeler for Custom header made??
I search around with no luck on a header made for us. But I stumbled across a board vendor aznbo187 in making us a header but will need at least 15 people. Ima start a list and hopefully this will work.
1. Fatty
1. Fatty
03-19-2008, 09:30 AM
#2
Senior Moderator
I OK'd the feeler, unless Astro feels it is inappropriate.
For those who don't know aznbo187, he's a frequent poster in the 3G TL section and has been doing some mods for the 3GTL such as (IIRC) the quad exhaust for non TL-S 3G TLs.
Edit: here's his website: AcuraTLParts.com. He's an official vendor on our site as well.
For those who don't know aznbo187, he's a frequent poster in the 3G TL section and has been doing some mods for the 3GTL such as (IIRC) the quad exhaust for non TL-S 3G TLs.
Edit: here's his website: AcuraTLParts.com. He's an official vendor on our site as well.
03-19-2008, 12:28 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
I'd bite but probably not for an initial production run. I'd want someone else to get one first (ie. to be the guinea pig) to be sure there was no resonating or vibration and that the flanges fit perfectly at the manifolds. Where's the research going to come from unless aznbo187 himself has an RL to tinker with?
If I recall, one of the outfits that made headers for the 2nd Gen TL (I think it was a company called OBX) has some problems with resonating issues and only Comptech got it right (except until Comptech went out of business). Point being that clean welds in and of themselves isn't the only thing that needed to be done right for a good header (although if I recall, even the welds of the OBX weren't all that nice, and it only competed with the Comptech due to its much lower selling price) and a bit of engineering and testing also needs to be done.
Unfortunately the RL doesnt attract much attention from the Acura/Honda tuner crowd. Probably because the car is more expensive and marketed to a mature audience. So the chance of an aftermarket header has remained ellusive. I remember watching the Tirerack's 'under the car' video for the RL some time back on youtube and one of the points the narrator was making was about the tight angled bend the stock header has. He pointed out that there was probably some good power to be gained there with an aftermarket header.
If I recall, one of the outfits that made headers for the 2nd Gen TL (I think it was a company called OBX) has some problems with resonating issues and only Comptech got it right (except until Comptech went out of business). Point being that clean welds in and of themselves isn't the only thing that needed to be done right for a good header (although if I recall, even the welds of the OBX weren't all that nice, and it only competed with the Comptech due to its much lower selling price) and a bit of engineering and testing also needs to be done.
Unfortunately the RL doesnt attract much attention from the Acura/Honda tuner crowd. Probably because the car is more expensive and marketed to a mature audience. So the chance of an aftermarket header has remained ellusive. I remember watching the Tirerack's 'under the car' video for the RL some time back on youtube and one of the points the narrator was making was about the tight angled bend the stock header has. He pointed out that there was probably some good power to be gained there with an aftermarket header.
03-19-2008, 01:11 PM
#5
The engine for the RL is very identical in terms of exhaust/catalytic converter placement and function. They both don't really have headers, but rather have their headers cast into the head, which just releases it into one port on each side (per 3). Those directly shoot into the primary cats, which are either a 600-cell unit, or 900-cell.
The only realistic part that we would be able to classify as a header would be the J-pipe. This is the piece that connects both the primary cats into one, a 2-1 header respectively. It finally shots it off to the 3rd cat, and then the remainder is what constitutes a cat-back system.
This is the J-pipe. Note the factory merge is very prone to creating exhaust flow interference which usually results in a drop of exhaust velocity. A high exhaust pulse velocity is the key to cylinder scavenging, and essential to making sure that your new charge/combustion is as close to 100% as possible.
This is the J-pipe of a 3G TL. Wouldn't be surprised if they were the same as the RL.
In my opinion I think if we are able to make RL system into a true dual exhaust system, while keeping the factory mufflers, pipes and tips. What will change is the j-pipe, 3rd cat, and the frontal b-pipe of the exhaust.
Here is a picture of the factory exhaust layout of an RL.
We would be looking at replacing parts 6, 1, and 12. (J-pipe, 3rd cat, b-pipe).
What I have in mind is keeping the 2 primary pipes separate, and inducing an h-pipe to keep the exhaust pulses flowing free and improving the scavenging properties as well. This will get rid of the factory restriction, free up some power, and also most likely net a nice tone in the factory exhaust. Best thing is, you stay with factory tips, no need to worry about any CEL lights, and its much more DIY friendly than a primary cat swap.
Here is a rough sketch to aid as a visual guide to follow along to what I have in mind.
That's what I would do given the choice. I love the RL and been wanting to do it the long time as it's just begging to be modified, but there just isn't much support from those ol' farts. heh, kidding.
But I'm all ears.
The only realistic part that we would be able to classify as a header would be the J-pipe. This is the piece that connects both the primary cats into one, a 2-1 header respectively. It finally shots it off to the 3rd cat, and then the remainder is what constitutes a cat-back system.
This is the J-pipe. Note the factory merge is very prone to creating exhaust flow interference which usually results in a drop of exhaust velocity. A high exhaust pulse velocity is the key to cylinder scavenging, and essential to making sure that your new charge/combustion is as close to 100% as possible.
This is the J-pipe of a 3G TL. Wouldn't be surprised if they were the same as the RL.
In my opinion I think if we are able to make RL system into a true dual exhaust system, while keeping the factory mufflers, pipes and tips. What will change is the j-pipe, 3rd cat, and the frontal b-pipe of the exhaust.
Here is a picture of the factory exhaust layout of an RL.
We would be looking at replacing parts 6, 1, and 12. (J-pipe, 3rd cat, b-pipe).
What I have in mind is keeping the 2 primary pipes separate, and inducing an h-pipe to keep the exhaust pulses flowing free and improving the scavenging properties as well. This will get rid of the factory restriction, free up some power, and also most likely net a nice tone in the factory exhaust. Best thing is, you stay with factory tips, no need to worry about any CEL lights, and its much more DIY friendly than a primary cat swap.
Here is a rough sketch to aid as a visual guide to follow along to what I have in mind.
That's what I would do given the choice. I love the RL and been wanting to do it the long time as it's just begging to be modified, but there just isn't much support from those ol' farts. heh, kidding.
But I'm all ears.
03-19-2008, 02:03 PM
#7
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by AmBiGuOuS626
So how much power gain are we looking at by doing this? It sounds like it's gonna be very loud when paired with a cat-back exhaust.
Trending Topics
03-19-2008, 04:05 PM
#8
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern California
Age: 48
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think there would be more of a market for just the j-pipe upgrade. The "complete replacement" idea sounds great in theory, but I doubt you would find too many RL owners that would want to take it that far.... maybe in a few more years when more of the "younger crowd" starts picking up used RL's.
If you have one of the TL j-pipes laying around, I'd be willing to stop by one day to see if it'll fit. We could probably just place it next to the OEM pipe without removing it to start.
You may have to change the name of your website if we can make this work!
If you have one of the TL j-pipes laying around, I'd be willing to stop by one day to see if it'll fit. We could probably just place it next to the OEM pipe without removing it to start.
You may have to change the name of your website if we can make this work!
03-19-2008, 09:31 PM
#10
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by fatty
from what this guy said, sounds like probably mid 20hp
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-a...ticle_id=452729
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-a...ticle_id=452729
03-21-2008, 11:52 AM
#11
Originally Posted by fatty
from what this guy said, sounds like probably mid 20hp
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-a...ticle_id=452729
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-a...ticle_id=452729
03-21-2008, 12:06 PM
#13
Instructor
This all sounds very enticing!
I'd definitely want to hear more and to be kept in the loop.
Question - would there be a need for a "computer" reprogram to change any fuel mapping or similar to get the most out of it? Just curious... There are no chips manufactured for our cars, correct? Not even JDM AFAIK.
Thx,
I'd definitely want to hear more and to be kept in the loop.
Question - would there be a need for a "computer" reprogram to change any fuel mapping or similar to get the most out of it? Just curious... There are no chips manufactured for our cars, correct? Not even JDM AFAIK.
Thx,
03-21-2008, 12:22 PM
#14
Originally Posted by 2007AcuraRL
what would be the projected selling price for the kit?
This all sounds very enticing!
I'd definitely want to hear more and to be kept in the loop.
Question - would there be a need for a "computer" reprogram to change any fuel mapping or similar to get the most out of it? Just curious... There are no chips manufactured for our cars, correct? Not even JDM AFAIK.
Thx,
I'd definitely want to hear more and to be kept in the loop.
Question - would there be a need for a "computer" reprogram to change any fuel mapping or similar to get the most out of it? Just curious... There are no chips manufactured for our cars, correct? Not even JDM AFAIK.
Thx,
I'm going to start a list if you don't mind. This doesn't put you into any obligation, it's just to get a feeler of who would be interested in this project and would like to see it happen.
1.fatty
2.supergreen
3.Roy Cya
4.2007AcuraRL (
)
03-21-2008, 12:57 PM
#15
Supergreen & Anzbo187,
I am pressuimmg...when you guys installed this J-pipe on the TL-S, did you guys monitored the AFR before & after the install of the J-Pipe?
RL & TL-S both have the same engine and more than likely same ECU or fuel/timing map.
I am interested in the J-Pipe.
I am pressuimmg...when you guys installed this J-pipe on the TL-S, did you guys monitored the AFR before & after the install of the J-Pipe?
RL & TL-S both have the same engine and more than likely same ECU or fuel/timing map.
I am interested in the J-Pipe.
03-21-2008, 02:31 PM
#16
Although tuning the A/F with proper engine management is possible, either with JET Performance or a Greddy E-manage, at this point it is still way too expensive to justify the additional gain. JET is the only reasonable priced one I believe starting at around $350-400. Hondata one of the more respectable tuning companies hasn't released anything for the N/A TL. Rumor has it that there was no gains to be had from the ECU flash.
The concept behind the J-pipe is not to alter the A/F necessarily, but primarily to utilize the full potential of the combustion through the means of improving exhaust scavenging properties and therefore enabling a fresher new combustion charge. We are just taking whats available to us, and allowing it to be used to the fullest extent. In this case, the combustion chambers space. The factory ECU and sensors are flexible as well and are able to adapt to a certain range of change.
Just add yourself to the list if this sounds like fun stuff! =)
1.fatty
2.supergreen
3.Roy Cya
4.2007AcuraRL
5.deepdezal
The concept behind the J-pipe is not to alter the A/F necessarily, but primarily to utilize the full potential of the combustion through the means of improving exhaust scavenging properties and therefore enabling a fresher new combustion charge. We are just taking whats available to us, and allowing it to be used to the fullest extent. In this case, the combustion chambers space. The factory ECU and sensors are flexible as well and are able to adapt to a certain range of change.
Just add yourself to the list if this sounds like fun stuff! =)
1.fatty
2.supergreen
3.Roy Cya
4.2007AcuraRL
5.deepdezal
03-21-2008, 05:00 PM
#17
Senior Moderator
OK, I'll bite too, though I'd rather not be a guinea pig--if it's proven to have gains, I'll consider it very strongly. If it's too noisy (I already have an aftermarket exhaust I love , I'd probably have to put the stock exhaust back on.
So consider me a solid "maybe".
1.fatty
2.supergreen
3.Roy Cya
4.2007AcuraRL
5.deepdezal
6 neuronbob
, I'd probably have to put the stock exhaust back on.So consider me a solid "maybe".
1.fatty
2.supergreen
3.Roy Cya
4.2007AcuraRL
5.deepdezal
6 neuronbob
03-21-2008, 09:54 PM
#19
Senior Moderator
Don't forget how difficult it is to prove hp gains on the RL. Click "My car" in my signature to review my posts from a year ago about performing a dyno with our complex SH-AWD system. With exhaust and intake, I gained 13-14 whp.
To anyone person testing a new J-pipe: Make sure to get before and after dynos on an AWD dyno. Usually you'll find these at tuning shops specializing in Mitsu Evos or Subaru WRXs. Even with the odd figures I got when I dynoed on two different dynos, the dyno is the best tool for determining gains.
To anyone person testing a new J-pipe: Make sure to get before and after dynos on an AWD dyno. Usually you'll find these at tuning shops specializing in Mitsu Evos or Subaru WRXs. Even with the odd figures I got when I dynoed on two different dynos, the dyno is the best tool for determining gains.
03-23-2008, 06:17 PM
#21
Senior Moderator
I used no special tricks. It doesn't matter whether the VSA is activated or not, the results are the same. The only way to accurately assess power to the wheels is to use the method that the Temple of VTEC used in dynoing the RDX: The detached the propeller shaft that connects the tranny (front) to the rear diff. They then effectively had a FWD car and the dyno was to the front wheels only. It was almost certainly better than if they had done it on an AWD dyno with all four wheels spinning.
I was unwilling to have my RL's propeller shaft removed and so the car was tested as it came into the dyno shop.
I was unwilling to have my RL's propeller shaft removed and so the car was tested as it came into the dyno shop.
03-24-2008, 10:36 AM
#22
I'm going to try to locate a DynoJet dyno, if not the same Mustang 500 AWD dyno that you have used so that we can see if there is a big difference in the baseline runs.
In my opinion the more important factor is having the baseline and post dyno in a relative short time period. All our dynos run we have conducted so far were done within an hour of each other (baseline/post) to minimize any major changes in weather condition, humidity and if you filled up with different gas. A lot can change when you leave a few days between each test.
1.fatty
2.supergreen
3.Roy Cya
4.2007AcuraRL
5.deepdezal
6 neuronbob
7.legendaryrl
In my opinion the more important factor is having the baseline and post dyno in a relative short time period. All our dynos run we have conducted so far were done within an hour of each other (baseline/post) to minimize any major changes in weather condition, humidity and if you filled up with different gas. A lot can change when you leave a few days between each test.
1.fatty
2.supergreen
3.Roy Cya
4.2007AcuraRL
5.deepdezal
6 neuronbob
7.legendaryrl
03-24-2008, 12:31 PM
#23
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by aznbo187
In my opinion the more important factor is having the baseline and post dyno in a relative short time period. All our dynos run we have conducted so far were done within an hour of each other (baseline/post) to minimize any major changes in weather condition, humidity and if you filled up with different gas. A lot can change when you leave a few days between each test.
03-31-2008, 11:29 PM
#25
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern California
Age: 48
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd consider a dyno session if we can get spots 8-15 filled. 
Any update on a 4wd dyno in Southern Cali? There has to be one around here somewhere with all the Evo's and Sti's on the road.
Any update on a 4wd dyno in Southern Cali? There has to be one around here somewhere with all the Evo's and Sti's on the road.
04-05-2008, 02:43 PM
#28
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern California
Age: 48
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by aznbo187
Yeah, if there is enough interest a dyno session would definitely be interesting. There are a few I was recommended, I'm just curious on how the SH-AWD will react.
Judging by neuronbob's experiences, I'd say there are definitely some "quirks."
Bob... do you have any additional info on the RDX with the driveshaft removed?
04-05-2008, 05:12 PM
#29
Senior Moderator
just kidding!
04-11-2008, 02:51 PM
#35
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern California
Age: 48
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds about right considering the TL j-pipe sells for $450.
As the list grows, (hint hint
) we'll have more updates on the progress of the prototype. Only 7 people left!!
As the list grows, (hint hint
) we'll have more updates on the progress of the prototype. Only 7 people left!!
04-11-2008, 02:58 PM
#36
Senior Moderator
Bump for a great mod idea.
04-11-2008, 06:41 PM
#38
Senior Moderator
just a quick note to aznbo, the RL has an exhaust like the MDX which i think is to stage where it restricts flow at lower RPM's for more torque, but opens up at high RPMS. I think its in the J pipe that this occurs, but not sure.
04-12-2008, 11:56 PM
#39
Originally Posted by csmeance
just a quick note to aznbo, the RL has an exhaust like the MDX which i think is to stage where it restricts flow at lower RPM's for more torque, but opens up at high RPMS. I think its in the J pipe that this occurs, but not sure.
04-16-2008, 01:20 AM
#40
Instructor
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Southern California
Age: 48
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Found this in a press release for the 2006 RL. Some good info... but unfortunately it doesn't say where exactly the valve is located.
CLOSE-COUPLED CATALYZERS AND VARIABLE FLOW EXHAUST SYSTEM
The exhaust manifolds of the RL are cast directly into the alloy cylinder heads to reduce weight and to put the engine's two primary catalytic converters as close as possible to the combustion chambers. The 600-cell per-square-inch, high-efficiency converters mount directly to the exhaust port of each cylinder head for extremely rapid converter light off after the engine starts. By eliminating traditional exhaust header pipes, this arrangement results in a significant weight savings.
A hydroformed 2-into-1 collector pipe carries exhaust gases to a single 350 cell-per-inch secondary converter under the passenger cabin. To balance the engine's need for proper exhaust backpressure at low speed and free flow at high speed, the exhaust system incorporates a variable flow rate feature. An exhaust pressure-operated valve in the system has two operating modes. The low speed mode has a flow rate of 130 liters per second; when the engine reaches about 4000 rpm, the exhaust pressure rises enough to open the valve, which increases the flow to 150 liters per second.
CLOSE-COUPLED CATALYZERS AND VARIABLE FLOW EXHAUST SYSTEM
The exhaust manifolds of the RL are cast directly into the alloy cylinder heads to reduce weight and to put the engine's two primary catalytic converters as close as possible to the combustion chambers. The 600-cell per-square-inch, high-efficiency converters mount directly to the exhaust port of each cylinder head for extremely rapid converter light off after the engine starts. By eliminating traditional exhaust header pipes, this arrangement results in a significant weight savings.
A hydroformed 2-into-1 collector pipe carries exhaust gases to a single 350 cell-per-inch secondary converter under the passenger cabin. To balance the engine's need for proper exhaust backpressure at low speed and free flow at high speed, the exhaust system incorporates a variable flow rate feature. An exhaust pressure-operated valve in the system has two operating modes. The low speed mode has a flow rate of 130 liters per second; when the engine reaches about 4000 rpm, the exhaust pressure rises enough to open the valve, which increases the flow to 150 liters per second.