F.Rizzo

Howdy people. Checking in from the RDX forum.
The wife's lease is up in about 4 mos on the Benz and we started looking for replacements. I've been pretty pleased with the SH-AWD in the RDX and the overall reliability of the car one year after daily beatings like it was a rental car has been great....so I thought I'd give the RL a little research.

I've pretty much narrowed it down to the RL or the Infiniti M series. I have not driven either car yet, but here's an interesting tidbit I've noticed in the online reviews: Somehow the 275HP in the M35x is either adequate or "good" but most of the online reviews of the 300HP in the RL characterize it as underpowered.

You have to take everything with a grain of salt. This seems a little far fetched to me.

miner

A very close friend of mine has a M35X - very nice car - but I found the engine noise to be bothersome for a $45000 car and the ride a bit harsh. Plus, his Nav was not as friendly to use and it is a birds-eye view. Didn't like that feature. Once I retruned to my RL I found it very relaxing to drive. IMHO the V6 of the RL is adequate for daily use.

dwest1023

The RL is NOT underpowered. I have have driven the M35, I and I agree with the poster above about the engine noise. You REALLY need to drive both. IMO the Rl is a a better overall value and I like it much better than the M. I recently drove an Audi S5 with V8 and 345 hp and when I got back in the Rl it STILL did not feel underpowered. This RL is a wonderful car, but you will never know how good until you drive and compare with all the other as I have. I don't know about reliability,but you might want to check out the new Cadillac CTS. GM has a winner there.

gavine

The Infiniti drive-by-wire system is very touchy so it makes their cars "feel" quicker by artificially opening the throttle more than your input amount.

I agree that the Nissan engine is not smooth at all. The Acura engine is buttery smooth. The older Maximas were very smooth but the later versions of the VQ engine are rough. Nissan has addressed the NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) issue in the 2nd gen G35 and that engine will eventually make it into the M35 (not sure when)

I think the power in the RL is very good, especially if you don't mind getting the RPM's up. Some feel it needs more torque but I find the torque quite fine.

gavine

F.Rizzo wants AWD....does the new CTS have an AWD model?

ddswv

Just my 2 cents..........As a former GM owner (many GM's) I could NEVER recommend a GM over an Acura or Honda. Just look at the reliability issues with GM (Consumer Reports mentioned on Forum).

If you do have issues with GM they outright refuse to take any responsibility, its always "its within specs." My 2000 Bonneville SSEI was within Specs, and after an hour driving the car the vibration from the steering wheel would cause your arms to be numb, but it was within specs. There was actually a TSB concerning the vibration and the known fact they couldn't get rid of the vibration, all to do with using aluminum suspension control arms on the front end.

My RL is loaded with aluminum suspension components and doesn't have any of the other surprise reliability/quality issues that quickly appeared as ALL of my GM's had got a few miles on them.

If one is serious about the CTS, wait a year…….let GM discover some of the hidden quality issues that haven’t surfaced yet.

To make a long story short the SSEI was in the shop over 50 times in 39 months, many that took it out of service till fixed. I ended up with about 5 grand with a lemon lawsuit and decided I'd never buy another GM or recommend a GM ever again.

I believe in buying American, and thats why my first was the Acura TL made in Ohio. Since then I have upgraded to the RL (twice now) and completely love it.

Sorry for the rant, but until quality and customer service becomes important to GM I'll continue ranting.

Mike_TX

The CTS does come in an AWD flavor, I'm told.

As for the MDX v. the M35X, keep in mind the MDX is carrying more weight than the M, so some of the extra hp is diluted there. And as gavine pointed out, Infiniti is well-known for aggressive throttle tip-in that makes the car FEEL quicker off the line. They also keep the revs high - too high for many of us (I used to own an M45).

The MDX is actually pretty doggone quick for a 4,500-lb. SUV, and I've been quite satisfied with its highway passing abilities, too. Just note that the "feeing" of speed is a little different in any vehicle that's higher off the road.

The obvious answer is to go drive the 'X and make up your own mind. Being an RDX owner, I'm sure your dealer would just give you one to drive around for a few hours.

.
.

neuronbob

The RL is not underpowered, but it does need more low-end torque and more aggressive gearing. Even so, I have never, ever felt the car was unmotivated in a freeway passing maneuver. Mash the pedal enough, and you get action.

I test drove the M35x prior to my purchasing the RL and I felt the SH-AWD made a difference in the dry handling of the RL.

They are both excellent cars and I almost bought the M35x. The RL is a better all-around performer when you consider all the facts. For sheer thrust, the M45 wins over both for obvious reasons, but you said you liked SH-AWD.

Search and you will find many M35x vs. RL comparos in this forum.

Chas2

I thought this was an RL (not an MDX) vs M35x question.

Of course, everyone here will say the RL is a better deal, and it may well be. On paper, the cars look similar. You have to drive them and pay attention to the details. In the end, it may not be specs, or driving dynamics, or all the other things that we would leap to in making comparisons. It may be that one little thing that bugs the heck out of you, like the seat just does not quite fit right, or you don't like how controls fall to your finger tips or some other unique, peculiar thing about how your body and the car interface that may carry the deal.

Total system integration, which includes you, the driver, is what will carry the day for you.

dwboston

Another point that has been brought up before here is the hinging of the accelerator pedal in the RL. It's much more responsive when pressing at the top of the pedal vs. the middle or bottom IMO.

TampaRLX-SH

That is no rant. There are several of us in the RL forum who agree, experienced the same and share common love for the RL. I too traded my US built TL for the RL and feel completely justified doing so.

I would tend not to buy ANY vehicle in it's 1st model year, even Acura / Honda has some issues to resolve.

But foremost, Honda is an engine company and I have much faith with engines in Honda & Acura products.

Mike_TX

Guilty as charged ...my error on the MDX comparison. I guess the RDX reference got me off-track, being an owner of both an RL and an MDX.

Sorry for the waste of bandwidth. I must have forgotten to take my medicine this morning.

.
.

F.Rizzo

I get all of your points.

I think you miss mine.

It kinda pi$$es me off that the 275hp in the Infiniti is "OK" yet somehow the 300hp in the RL is underpowered ?

The bias is sooo obvious to me because i just started to compare the two last week, so all the road tests are fresh in my mind. I think people have started to repeat someone else's comments so long, everyone takes them as gospel. Why isnt the less HP in the Infiniti an issue?

larrynimmo

we are all blinded by HP. We think of HP as in indication of how fast our car will go. There are several things you must look at when examining speed performance. Power curves is one of the first anaylsis. The RL's power band is above 5000 RPM for both HP & torque. In the lower RPMs RL is anemic. The M's HP is less peaky than the RL, but it develops near maximum torque at 2k RPM...plus the M has 12 lb more torque than our RL. The other thing you need to look at is power to weight...the RL is HEAVY for a car of its type. The RL doesn't aggressively downshift...while riding and you punch the pedal the RL's fly by wire system has a delay (feels like turbo lag). The more I drive the car, I have adjusted my performance driving techniques to more fully utilize the power and handling of this car. This is especially important if you want the benefits of SHAWD. The RL performance drive is a very satisfying experience to most.

Yet I can still remember my 69' Vette...when you punched her, as you could hear first the raw gas being squirted down the throttle body with the accelerator pumps...then the sound of waWA when those silver dollar size bores of the quadrajet secondaries kick in, and yes you were nailed to the back of your seat. The absolute best gas mileage I got was 10...one time I got 6...never had I ever enjoyed such acceleration more than that one tank of gas. Because of the high torque of that motor, the car would squat or dip to one side while this would happen. The Corvette had only slightly more HP than the RL, but had tons more torque, and above all weighed about 1,000 pounds less than the RL.

I was 20 when I owned that Corvette and the car was very satifying for me...yet today at 52 I will tell you that the RL is not only the very best built car I have ever owned, it is overall the most fun to drive. No doubt the Corvette wins the race on any straight track...do a couple of turns and that old corvette would be in a ditch somewhere.

TampaRLX-SH

I believe it is more of a perception and feel. The Infinity is tuned for more verve, throttle tip in and engine exhaust tuning. It creates a sensation that it is quick, powerful and lets you know it.

The RL is decidedly tuned for refined, hushed and smooth response. To many, that translates to underpowered. I find the RL at speed feels slower than the M at the same speed.

They are similary equipped machines, but exibit decidedly different characteristics.
Throw in the RLs efficiency comparisons and ULEV2, you further differentiate how these cars will behave.

It is too simplistic to compare HP metrics, and even 0-60 stats. It is how those ponies are executed which will project the car's personality. Being most media is all about power/performance and slot car handling, the RLs approach to refinement will discount the performance capabilities in the mind (one track) of auto rags and race car wannabees.

I am well aware of the RLs capabilities, but in my life on the road I rarely can make any use of it, nor do I wish to have a Formula 1 tuned vehicle as my daily driver.

db22

Hamilton's McLaren will feel under-powered when the revs are under 15 K too.
If you want a refined, luxury, sporty car then the RL is for you. I know it's tough to do (on a test drive) but drive the RL with the gears in manual, use the paddles and keep the revs up. After you get the smile on your face, put it back in Auto and enjoy the ride, luxury, toys and exclusivity of the RL.
You probably won't get to appreciate the SHAWD on a test drive either. After you own one, get familiar with the beast and have enough miles on it to play with the revs then you will realize that there is nothing like it.

F.Rizzo

My vote for quote of the year

Rexorg

Probably because of the gear ratios in the transmissions. Also, you have to remember "torque" gets a car going and "horsepower" makes it go fast. Honda could make the RL super fast by changing the gear set, but mpg would suffer big time. In a 4,012 pound car to get decent gas mileage you have to compromise plain and simple. If you are looking for luxury and speed I would suggest you check out the TL-S.

Godwhacker

Although I have not driven the M, the RL has the most accellerator pedal "travel" of just about any car I have driven. Every time I think I have the gas pedal pretty far down, theres still more pedal I didn't use. This can sometimes make the RL feel a bit underpowered, especially when you first drive it, but I have grown to like it alot, because once you get used to it, you have more precise control and can dial in just the right amount of accelleration, eliminating the jerks and brake use and getting a much smoother, more enjoyable ride.

Just my two cents

gavine

Very well-said....

dwest1023

Yes it does. The one I test drove had it.

dwest1023

I agree with everything that you have said, hence my reluctance to buy the CTS.
I have not bought an American car in over 30 years, and almost none of the Japanese cars I have pruchased have given me any trouble. I only mention the CTS because of ALL the cars that I have test driven this year, the new CTS is the ONLY car that seemingly did everything as well the RL. The RL IMO is as perfect a balance car, I have ever driven. The one thing that amazed me about the CTS was how the car handles like a sports car, but at the same time had the ride of a Buick. That was amazing to me, not to mention all the up to date gadgets iit had . Reliably is always first with me, and I will read the CTS forums to see how they are fairing. At the same time, I will wait to see what Honda is going to do with the 3G RL first. I think they will have some real surprises for us.

TampaRLX-SH

I find this is the primary attribute of the RL, which does not mean I find it boring, or a Buick. It balances my desire for refinement with capable handling and performance. I found that all the 'best performers' out there lacked the refinement the RL delivers (and I would include my former TL with those 'best performers').

Finding this balance has become more and more difficult as 'performance' has transformed too many appealing cars into harsh riding, buzzy, creaky, droning, jerky rides. Still, I do not want a float boat, I want to drive, and though everyday driving rarely allows spirited driving, I do have my days. The RL delivers my fix. Maybe this is a sign of my aging, or just the disppointments I had with other cars after the new car honeymoon wore off.

I am intrigued by what you describe as sports car handling with comfort of a Buick in the CTS. That is a difficult balance to strike as the two attributes are typically in conflict. Where I might criticize the RL on a performance issue, I can counter that criticizm for a refinement or economy attribute. I really do see where Honda engineers thought and rethought many aspects of this car. It was not about being the best XXX###, but being the best balance.

And the RLs engine too is the best balance of refinement, power, economy, ULEV2, engine note, VTEC rush and reliability that transends through the entire car design, style and execution.

I am grateful I found my automotive Zen in the RL. Few people find Zen in their lifetime. But based on the sales numbers, I think I am one of the lucky few.

GoHawks

I feel pretty much spot on with what you said.

You know, the recent threads have had me wondering. When you read most of the posts throughout this forum, you find very few people who dislike the RL, most at worse are satisfied while others, like me, love their RL.

On the other hand, if you go over to sites like ClubLexus, or even over to the TL side of the house, things are slightly different. While the slant is still pro [insert whatever car here] there are still quite a few threads complaining about something (i.e. squeaks, rattles, quality, etc.). Those threads are few and far between here.

So it has me wondering, are we truly the target market that Honda/Acura was aiming at for the RL, and if so, did they underestimate how many of us are out there?

While I'm happy to have found this car, I have to accept the fact that Acura has to be disappointed in the sales, and if they do revaluate the target audience, would I still enjoy it's successor as much as I enjoy my current RL?

F.Rizzo

I think if they "reevaluated" the car, they would have kept pace with the rivals. I really love the looks and size of the RL, but am left severely disappointed with no rain sensing wipers, no hard drive audio - and most especially the lack of cooled seats.

As was said so eloquently in another thread, what was "wow" in 2004 is "yawn, my Hyundai does that" in 2008.

It still bugs me that the "critics" think 25 HP less in the M35 is not worth a mention but "only" 290HP in the RL is a point to belabor.

I still have have a few months to make a decision.

dwest1023

The new CTS ride is sort of hard to describe. The ride is very comfortable, and yet it handles like a sports car. I have never experience this sort of ride before, and that was one of the things that made me take notice. The one I tested was AWD and I am sure that contributed a lot to the handling. I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the RL engine. I think Honda makes the best engines in the world. The engine in the CTS was very good as well, but the RL engine is a bit more refined, especially at high RPM. That is where the CTS seemed American, if you will.

I am really excited to see what Honda will do with the RL next. although I am hard pressed to figure how they could make it better beyond more bells and whistles.

deepdezal

this buggs me:---

why honda didn't chose to use I-VTEC technology on this motor. From what I know this motor uses the standard VTEC-lobe shim insert at fixed RPM and it is only on the intake side.


They could have played around with exhaust and may be change the torque curve??





just an opinion. but I still love this car...

sadlerau

Well we could start with the electrically controlled dampers as found on the MDX, then add a six speed auto and finish with another 40hp and loads more torque from a i-Vetc 3.7motor. And not a bell or whistle in sight

Mike_TX

This is just my take, Rizzo, but all carmakers pick and choose the bells and whistles they put in/on their cars, based on cost, availability, desirability, demand, etc. Rain-sensing wipers aren't considered to be worth their cost by most carmakers, and Honda/Acura apparently agreed when it came to the RL back in 2004 (for the 2005 model). I personally don't like them (after having 3 different cars with them), so It's no loss to me, but you may see them on the next-gen RL.

Cooled seats - I agree with you. They already have them on Canadian models, and it's not a big technological leap to add them.

The critics like the M's lesser power simply because of the way it "comes on" (aggressive throttle tip-in, low gearing). Those car mag guys aren't impressed with anything but smoking tires and high G's on the skidpad.

You have to admit, though, that the RL - even though basically a 4-year-old design - still has more sheer standard-equipment content than almost anything else out there short of a Lexus LS460.

So, don't look at the glass as being half empty.

.
.

Jaysmith2000

The RL has the power, it just has to be unleashed (which is a bit challenging). There is so many things holding this car back it's frightening. Small upgrades give large gains with this car for this reason. I wish the ECU upgrade for the Japan Legend would work in the RL, moving the Vtec down to around 2k RPM's would make this bad boy roar. Having said that, for highway driving it's ideal. Lots of high end power, great ride and confident handling.

neuronbob

Totally agree, having unleashed said power. Accelerating is sonic bliss and happens in a hurry with the mods.

If someone released an ECU upgrade for the RL in the USA, I would buy it to optimize the raw power unleashed by adding CAI and exhaust.

Moving VTEC to 2k rpm would KILL the gas mileage, though.