GoHawks

Interesting. The article was mainly about the strides that Ford has made, but the excerpt below is an intersting statement based on a discussion recently in another thread.

http://www.freep.com/article/2008102...SS01/810240329

Toyota's youth brand, Scion, took the No. 1 spot in the survey. Honda's Acura and Honda brands took No. 2 and No. 3 spots, respectively. The Toyota brand, meanwhile, placed No. 4, while the company's luxury Lexus brand was No. 5.

another excerpt is that while I like the CTS, and I said I would be watching it as a potential replacement for my RL in the future, I may be wise to not jump ship.

However, it said that "a quarter of GM models are still well below average in reliability." That included the Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, GMC Acadia and Saturn Outlook

neuronbob

To keep this RL-centered, CR rates the 2008 RL with top marks in reliability, the first year the 2G RL has been rated as such.

GoHawks

Thank you.

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

Well the RL could never reach that from 05-07, especially the troublesome 05 models. At least Acura finally made it a worthy car even if it took them 4 years to do so.

Nice that my SC430 is as always the most reliable car on the road. The new ES and GS continue to plague Lexus. The GX, IS, LS, GS, LX continue to dominate in the perspective fields in other studies. This study had many models absent from all manufactures. A pretty limited study but at least the NEW Acura models are doing well. Hopefully the new 2010/11 RL will not have the growing pains that the old RL had.

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

One also needs to look at the 'industry standard' study from JD Powers which is more comprehensive than Consumer Reports (they said a Fusion is reliable, mine was not close). Keep in mind that Consumer Reports only gets information from subscribers whereas JD Powers uses a much broader scope of data to determine it's ratings. This explains why so many vehicles are not listed on the Consumer Reports ratings because the data is limited. No saying one is better than another, both Lexus and Acura products are fine and Acura has come a longs ways from being an embarrassment from just a few years ago.

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

Consumer Reports on the RL.
Again, no sample size is given so information could be 'off' a great deal which explains how the audio is rated poor for many years then did well for one year before falling to poor again. CR has a very small sample size to go by.

robarsan

Disagree. The '06 RL I've owned has been the most reliable vehicle I've owned to date. Other than an issue with the door handle not locking correctly (replaced last year and has worked fine since), the car has been trouble free.
First year production '05 has had issues, but that is the norm for first releases. It took them 1-year to get it right in my opinion.

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

Disagree with CR, not me, see above. I'm sure there are some Chevy Cobalt owners that can make the same statement.

JD Powers is also not so kind
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/relia...=acura_rl_2005

Don't get me wrong, I like the car, but is is certainly not bulletproof reliable, few exceptions aside.

GoHawks

So you're saying that the '08 model has basically "saved" the RL?

I'm sure the glitches for the "power equip" and "audio" had to do with the door handle issues and the early problems with XM.

I'd like for you to compare the RL to the Lexus GS models from comparable years.

My point is not to nit pick who is #2 (Acura) as opposed to #5 (Lexus)

My point was to respond this this comments.

Where you seemed to imply that Acura was not even on the same playing field as Lexus.

At least even in the CU report, lowly Toyota outscored their more prestigous cousin.

GoHawks

I'd like to debate this more today, but my time to respond this weekend will be limited.

If I recall correctly, the JD Powers survey is initial quality. I don't put as much weight in that as all new cars better be trouble free early on. Although I don't know how Acura fares vs. Lexus in that one.

My rant in the other post is that Toyota/Lexus isn't an "automatic" anymore when you consider quality. My experiences with my Land Cruiser are indicative of the problems, albeit temporary (I know Toyota will improve). There's a reason why CU no longer automatically recommends a Toyota/Lexus product.

The Lexus GS AWD which is a competitor to the RL has scored poorly as well.

If I had more time I would do a search on Toyota & quality. There have been a number of articles that speak to this and the fact that Toyota has been concerned about it for quite some time.

Here are a few.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...a_quality.html

This from 2007.

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au...s_quality.html


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/business/15auto.html

There is plenty more.

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

You seem bent on discussing your ONE Toyota product and implying that it is a Lexus which it is not. I can sit here all day long and discuss the reliability of my Lexus products against my Acura but that means little except to me and has no bearing to this discussion.

If you look at the JD Powers survey which is a comprehensive study then you see where Acura stands. Also, there are several JD Powers studies and all show Lexus at the top well above Acura.

The CR articles is only discussing a few models and is not broad in scope. Do you see a SC430 on there? How about a GX, LS? Nope. None of those are listed. This would be the same one car from company X and comparing it to to company B and then stating that x beat b because of one test.

Ok, here are some charts. Keep in mind that these are only initial quality as the new GS redesign will be gauged for dependability in 2009 (3 years study).






Now on your other issues of whether Toyota is concerned of their quality? isn't everyone? Not has Lexus and Toyota dropped because of a few models. Yes. Again the new GS has been plagued by a few issues such as audio, creaks, windnoise but according to the above, not much.
The new ES has really put a hurt of Lexus as the volume of the model can make a statistical dent in the overall rating for Lexus. That car which is based on the Camry (also rated low) is of concern and Toyota/Lexus took their time addressing these, though not nearly as long as Acura did with their CL/TL transmission issue.

However, compare the LS, GX (mine has been incredibly reliable), LX, and SC (again, legendary) and you see that all of them are at the top of their categories above all else.
I would be happy to pull up their charts as well.

Summary is and I post very heavily on ClubLexus of course is that Acura has stepped up and Lexus did suffer because of one model.

CR is a very limited resource though I still respect their studies even if very limited.

JD Powers uses a very broad scope and data for their data and the chart above shows where not only that Lexus is on top but well above #2 and certainly over Acura that places much lower.

Now, the 2009 JD Powers report will be interesting as this will include the new ES and GS.

Again, the RL is a nice car -I BOUGHT ONE and getting a ton of $%^&* from my CL buddies for doing so. But I would never compare it's reliability to that of my GS (older GS, or SC300, or SC400, or SC430, GX470, and IS300). But personal references are irrelevant as they could always contain bias.

Look at the post here on issues after issue on transmission noise, door handles, leather popping out, back window screen, air conditioning, etc and how many went to a GS

If I wanted reliability over everything I would have picked a Lexus easily. But I wanted something different and since I rarely see an RL on the road and enjoy it's features I chose it and will deal with my decision if any issues pop up.

neuronbob

I think my RL has been reasonably reliable.

I've owned two Chrysler products....on one, the tranny failed at 625 miles of ownership, and in the other, the engine blew up with only less than 50k miles. Compared to that, My RL has been damned near perfect.

No matter what one thinks of CR's methodology, there's no doubt that many people use their data to purchase a car. I think we should leave the discussion thus: Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura are BOTH very reliable marques.

GoHawks

But you see it's not just and isolated case. For all three of my big ticket repairs, (nav screen, backup camera & BT-Headunit) there was a TSB that applied for both the Land Cruiser and the LX. As we all know TSBs aren't issued for isolated cases.


Of course everyone is concerned about quality, but those articles I posted weren't about continuous improvement. They were about an actual drop in quality from Toyota. Two different things.

Now of course I understand that this is all relative. There are many car companies who would love to have Toyota's quality scores.

My point in this friendly debate is not to argue that Honda/Acura is better than TOyota/Lexus. It's more to debate your implication that Honda doesn't come close to the legendary quality history of Toyota/Lexus. Recent history proves otherwise.

Realistically and statiistically there is very little that seperates the top 5, or possibly the top 10. My point is that you can no longer say that Toyota/Lexus is in a league of their own when referring to quality.

And don't forget, I am a repeat Toyota/Lexus customer, my Land Cruiser is my second along with a Camry and other products.

VTEC Racer

I love the fact that we can debate about Acura and Lexus like this on here without having to worry that one would be type-casted as Anti-Acura. Unfortunately over at ClubLexus, any hint of support for Acura will ultimately set you up to get banned by 1SICKLEX. Not only does he not let anyone give a positive opinion about Acura, but he really just gives the Lexus brand a bad name in general when he represents it the way he does.

470hpGS400

iTrader: (1)

I would not say that he has as much against Acura as he does me. His anti Acura post have stepped up since I purchased the RL. He was leaning on Infiniti when he found out I was looking at one of those as well. He probably comes over here to read so perhaps he will chime in. Perhaps jealous that my RL will walk all over his older GS. Mike is a good guy though, known him for years. His Acura rant does get old and many just ignore it these days as it is easy to see through. You can debate him though without worrying about getting banned. Takes a lot to get banned on CL and a lot of good chaps over there.

neuronbob

Nope. He was from AZ for stirring s**t up unnecessarily.

kenny5

Neuronbob, I really like your animated icons, especially the "banned" icon. Where do you get these cool and funny icons?

VTEC Racer

1SICKLEX is horrible and 90% of the internet agrees. I don't care what he's like in person, his online demeanor is the worst I have ever seen of any person. He is know on almost every major car forum, been banned from several and now uses ClubLexus as a power trip. It's one thing to have a dislike for a certain brand. However, when you get to the point when your not letting people have their own honest opinions without attacking them, it sets a bad example for the forum and brand. I'm beyond words how he is still a moderator. It's like a corrupt cop.

He was banned under the name 1SICKLEX but then returned under a new name which was then discovered. He hasn't posted once under the second name he was using ever since he was called out so yes he definitely does still lurk and post just with another name, again. Sad really.

TampaRLX-SH

I do not know 1sicklex, although I have read the tales of his moderation battles. Frankly, "methinks he doth protes too much"....

Anyone who behaves so is typically dealing with issues of inadequacy, fragile self worth and need to continually ante up self affirmation. Anyone who challenges that need is a threat, and must be attacked. These characters are simply are not strong within themslves to allow opposing opinions, never mind accept of welcome opposing oppinions. In effect if you do not like (or worship) what this person values, you are indirectly acknowledging the lack of self worth and it is your fault. You must be destoyed!

These people must be better than everyone else and not simply good enough for themselves. These people typically have to attach themselves to an object, brand, lifestyle or image to achieve this stature and it must be defended at all costs. Again, they themselves are not good enough. And if you do not share in the value of the object brand, lifestyle or image they use for self worth, you are again an adversary.

Being a car guy myself, I have to admit this situation is iconic with car guys. We have to have the fastest, most HP, most critical acclaim, etc, etc, of our car to be happy. And many even have to do so at the expense of others. Hence we have 'kills' and being 'owned' and over the top brand and mosel competitions (arguments). What worth does this really bring to anyone?

What I find refreshing about the majority of enthusiasts here on the RL forum (and exclusively the RL forum) is not only a love, respect and acceptance for a vehicle that struggles to be iconic (and it attacked for not being so), but also a 'live and let live' dialog where opposing opinions can be debated without character assasination, bully mentality and being subject to 'kills' or being 'owned'. Since the RL is a miniscule segment of the market, I have wondered is it also reflects a small segment of car guy mentality (and gals too)?

The internet is an amazing amount of information and allows interaction from people who would never in their lifetime enjoy a real interpersonal contact with each other. However, an amazing amount of filters are needed to sift through that information, one of which is thick skin and a good sense of humor. It also allows cowards an arena to spew venom, that in person, they would never pose as it would likely result in the snot being beaten from their upturned noses.

It is hard not to retaliate to these bullies. It is harder not to defend those whose good will, and sometimes niave contributions are stomped by such narrow minded persons. But if you step back, take a breath and recognize how sad these people really are, sometimes saying nothing can be the most corrective action. For every reaction we give them empowers and reinforces their behavior. Still we are human, and we speak out (myself included) to injustice. Hopefully when we do so, we can take a higher road and put more thought and less primitive emotion into our responses.

The primary reason I contribute to THIS car forum (solely) is that the caliber of the dialog is higher than an other car forums I have perused. Along with a moderator who understands what moderating means (can you feel the love...?), this is a community, for the most part, which not only has added to my enjoyment of RL ownership, but actually would be a group I could enjoy sharing beer, pizza, and wings while sharing what we love about the RL and debate, as adults, where we differ in opinion.

And back to Consumer Reports. It is CR. But frankly I wondered why every car they typically picked as the chosen one, did not appeal to me, whereas cars I passionately owned, they panned. I figure that to CR, a car is no different than a refrigerator, you plug it in, and it should work...period. I cannot diagree more about a car. My RL is an artfully engineered, beautifully crafted, pleasure inducing, personality reflecting, freedom enabling, mood altering member of my family.

When CR starts rating famly members....I will pay more attention to them.

kenny5

I agree with you wholeheartedly that almost all of the posters in this forum, not to mention our revered moderator, are sophisticated and open-minded people, which is the very reason that I frequently visit this forum to obtain unbiased and useful information. I also visit the TL forum, because many of the RL owners are former TL owners. It is also interesting to learn why they upgraded from the TL to the RL, while at the same time have some regrets about treated as "guinea pigs"

VTEC Racer

1SICKLEX doing his usual thing...

Post #577

This guy really is just sick. I wish I could help him

To think, this guy is a "mega moderator"; someone who is supposed to be a MODERATOR, not an instigator. I'll say it again, it really brings down ALL of Club Lexus.

fstshrk

As a happy 2008 RL-Tech owner, I agree. After fixing the rear parcel shelf rattle, my car has had no issues.

TampaRLX-SH

I think CR will have to differentiate the quality marks on cars as technology components become ever more complicated in today's cars. Technology is much more fragile and easy to misunderstand technology as not operating correctly. And to some degree, gizmos should take a back seat to the drivability of the vehicle, the prmary concern for a vehicle.

Indeed the early RLs did have some bugs, which all have been addressed by TSBs. To my knowlege the issues that were related to the car's drivability engineering (and not a stuck power port or software update) were the A/C compressor clutch (in Florida I do consider A/C a drivability issue!), propellor shaft bearing whine and some sqeaky breaks. Again, all addressed by Acura.

But when consumers are surveyed on vehicles, sometimes an electronic problem is nothing more than a misunderstanding of who it should work (user error). I can see that occurring more with technology laden vehicles and uninformed, quick-to-judge consumers.

Technology is fragile, and rapidly obsolete. A vehicles reputation beyond initial aquisition must first be focused on the ability to hold up as a mode of transportation. Then the features, content and conveniance factors become secondary. Where CR can be useful is to identify trends where brands consistently do well, or not so well with those attributes, but then it should be focused on actual repairs and not the intial quality expectations. Even if a car does well as a mode of transport, a reputation for lousy electronics will doom it in the consumer's eye.

Considering how much the RL introduced into the market, I think Honda did very well with quality and reliability. We who know the vehicle, know of the intial 05 bugs and know they have been resolved by Acura. Introducing SHAWD, ACE body structure, extensive aluminum structure and body, ULEV, still benchmarked telematics, GPS climate integration, HFL integration with NAVI, DVD audio, ANC, etc of the base / tech models is quite a gamble on the reliability reputation. I for one, feel this has been a very successful venture for Honda / Acura....even if the packaging did not take off in the market and sales volumes.

And I also believe Honda's conservative approach where NOT to rush to market or beat the market trend has paid off in quality reputation. As much as I respect Toyota, the attemp to be bigger am mimic US brands did in fact take toll on the quality reputation.

Where Honda / Acura have bowed to market trends was in styling attempts. And for Acura particularly, I think they have done an outstanding quality job with UGLY. Let's see THAT rated on CR.