CL6

If you push the car hard in corners it does exhibit torque steer, but since I know the difference between torque steer and acceleration I don't confuse the two when I discuss 'scoot.'

If you want to witness torque steer try driving a 2007 TL Type-S, particularly the one with the 6 speed.

My car has plenty of 'passing power' and not the sluggishness that the RL exhibits. You need to ride that RL like a henpecking wife to get any juice out of it.

To compare a Lexus RX with the RL shows a vast confusion of those two vehicles' markets. And, if I'm not mistaken, Lexus has steadily increased the power of that vehicle to give it more, uh, 'scoot.' The RL may not need 'scoot' but it sure as hell needs more power as a $50,000 car should have.

And the 2003 Acura CL Type-S 6 speed, which I have, has a 0-60 of 5.9 seconds while the Acura RL has a 0-60 time of anywhere from 6.7 to 7.1 seconds depending upon whom you trust.

Like I said... my CL has more power...

GoHawks

Correct, torque steer is a by-product of power driven to the front wheels.

The RL's problem is no different than other AWD vehicles. The Lexus GS300 (I hear the GS350 is better) and BMW AWD 5-Series are no different. Driving an extra two wheels along with the added weight is going to have an impact on performance. Pure and simple.

Your CL doesn't REALLY have more power. The power it has is just not encumbered by the additional burden of an AWD system.

I guarantee that if you dropped the engine of your CL into an RL, the performance of the RL would be significantly worse than it is.

CL6

I did a little checking.

As for the RX and 'scoot' I found this:

RX300 ~ 0-60 @8.5
RX330 ~ 0-60 @7.8
RX350 ~ 0-60 @7.4

So I guess decreasing acceleration times is a priority at Toyota.

As far as AWD sapping power, what you say makes sense:

RX350 FWD 0-60 @7.3
RX350 AWD 0-60 @7.4

Now 0.1 seconds doesn't seem like that much of a big deal to me although it is something. That info is from Edmunds.com:


Powertrains and Performance
A 3.5-liter V6 rated at 270 horsepower and 251 lb-ft of torque powers the RX 350. As before, a five-speed automatic is standard, and buyers have a choice of either a front-wheel-drive or all-wheel-drive model. With nearly 50 more horsepower on tap than before, performance is brisk, with Lexus claiming a 0-60 mph time of 7.3 seconds for the FWD model and 7.4 ticks for the AWD version. Fuel economy estimates are quite good for such a powerful SUV, with EPA numbers running at 20 mpg city/25 mpg highway for the FWD model and 19/24 for the AWD version.


No, I think the RL has other problems not the AWD thing.

And technically, the CL has less HP than the RL, and I know the CL weighs less. I'm just saying the CL is a much less expensive vehicle but has better acceleration times than a $50,000 car.

GoHawks

I still say you're comparing apples to oranges.

The AWD system in the RX, and the previous gen MDX primarily drive the front wheels sending power to the rear when slippage occurs.

Different than the SH-AWD system that send power to all four wheels (albeit now always equally).

Also, a more expensive vehicle doesn't imply that it should be faster than a less expensive model.

Look up the numbers for the GS350 AWD and the IS 350, or the BMW 535x, and the 335. I bet that in every case the lesser priced vehicle has a better 0-60 time.

CL6

In the interest of fairness here are some 0-60 stats from BMW's website:

328i
~ 6.3 MT
~ 6.7 AT
328xi
~ 6.9 MT
~ 7.1 AT

525i
~ 7.6 AT
525xi
~ 8.2

530i
~ 6.6 AT
530xi
~ 6.9

GoHawks

See...

petemc

Here's my $0.02

First point, is it possible that not all RL's are accounted for because they are sold under different names around the world? Isn't the RL known as an Accord in some other countries? I know it doesn't exist in Europe. I doubt that this would bring the numbers up significantly, especially since Acura has acknowledged that sales of the RL are low.

My second point is on "marketing the brand". Basically you get a level of business on name recognition, so the goal is to generate positive buzz and all the other marketing hype with a goal to increase sales. The RL hasn't got great name recognition (it hasn't even got good name recognition) and so to create improved name recognition you have to look to methods to advertise your products to your audience. Acura did a minimal amount of advertising for the RL, and what little there was rapidly stopped. Acura is seeing the result of lack of investment into the RL brand.

Pete

jhr3uva90

1) The RL is not called "Accord" ANYWHERE. Try "Legend.
2) The RL is not a brand, Acura is a brand. The reason why the car is called "RL" instead of "Legend" is to emphasize the brand name, "Acura," similar to how Mercedes gives its cars irrelevant alphanumeric names to emphasize the Mercedes name.
3) There's a LOT more to marketing than advertising, you might want to look that up. That being said, Acura has a long way to go when it comes to promoting its brand and products.

neuronbob

Jeez, if it were warmer here, I'd jump in my RL and go for a nice drive.

Not trying to offend, but I think we have better things to worry about as Acura/Honda has brought this situation with the RL on itself. We got good deals out of it. We will have to keep the car longer so we worry less about resale. Now let's ride!

CL6

Let's look at BMW this way:

Least powerful 3-Series to least powerful 5-Series AT etc:
328i ~ 6.7
525i ~ 7.6

335i ~ 5.6
530i ~ 6.6

550i ~ 5.5

You can slice these numbers anyway you want...

GoHawks

So are we in agreement? You seemed to imply before that the fact that your CL was quicker than the RL, that somehow Acura goofed. I pointed out that AWD vehicles are typically at a disadvantage when compared to 2WD models with similarly displaced engines.

Yes, while 0-60mph may not be the RLs strong suit (same can be said for the GS, 535x, etc.) it has other advantages.

pimpin-tl

People who had gotten the VB replaced on the Camrys didn't resolve the problems. At least as we can tell so far. Some even had the Transmissions replaced and still have the problems.

RL06tech

The skinny is simply that Honda doesn't truly inderstand the the Luxury market. In the Lux market value and engineering brilliance are of little importance, its all about image. The guy driving a 530i is trying to portray the image of being an M5 owner, irregardless that his bimmer is fodder for an Acura. For most owners a luxury car is about ego fulfilment, not mechanical excellence. The NSX was Acura's Halo car, the legend also was a performance leader when it was introduced. What happened is that instead of progressively improving on those ground breaking cars honda moved its sights to trucks the premium division performance vehicles were set out to dry.

GoHawks

I tend to agree somewhat. Many people who are buying these high end cars don't even understand how to leverage the technology in them. The other day I saw a guy in a brand new Mercedes S-Class talking on the phone using his BT earpiece. Probably isn't even aware of the car's BT capabilities.

Reminds me of people who have the blinking clock on their VCR because they don't know how to set the time.

jhr3uva90

Speaking of image, I've met BMW drivers who don't even know what an M5 is!

I agree that the luxury market is all about image. Mercedes, BMW, and Caddy have had DECADES to build their image among GENERATIONS of drivers. Toyota miraculously managed to build Lexus' image with 15 years, although sales seem to drop sharply once you get past the $45K mark. I don't think Acura cared that much about image in the past and instead preferred to let the engineering of the NSX and Legend speak for themselves. Now, however, they are promoting their image as the high-tech alternative to the traditional luxury brands. It will take some time for that new image, "Acura Advance," to sink in. Until then, think about this: the Caddy STS outsells the Acura RL, Lexus GS, and Infiniti M. Does that mean the Caddy is better than those other cars?

GoHawks

They just need to stick with it....

They've gone through a few slogans (Did a Google search). Some I remember some I don't.

Precision Crafted Performance
Some things are worth the price
The true definition of Luxury. Yours
The road will never be the same

and now Acura Advance


Lexus on the other hand only changed once and it really was just an evolution.

The went from The Relentless Pursuit of Perfection to The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection

Both of which really resonate with me. It's been their image.

CL6

We are in agreement that the AWD saps time from 0-60, yes. It is still difficult to know how much power because the RL does not exist without AWD and the Lexus RX was only 0.1 second different while the BMW was also different. But I would still say Acura goofed because they only have 3 sedans. There is a big difference between the TSX and the TL but as far as the TL to RL? Sure we know the differences but I think the average person (and perhaps the average sales guy) would expect the RL to be faster than the TL. Certainly $16,000 faster. The TL is faster than the TSX, after all.

Many people on test drives have commented on the RLs performance and when I drive it I find my right foot mashing down the gas pedal more than normal.

Anyway I did learn something from this discussion!

GoHawks

Again though, don't forget the the RX is basically a front driver until it loses traction. It doesn't ALWAYS send power to the rear wheels. A little different set up than Acura's SH-AWD system.

The Lexus GS comes in 2WD and 4WD, but I couldn't find any recent road tests of the GS350.

I will tell you one thing, the GS350 2WD actually outperforms the GS430. So much so that the GS430 has become a lame duck, and is not even stocked by dealers. If you really want one, you have to put in an order. Rumors are that a GS460 will be out in the near future.

Mike_TX

I'm not trying to start a debate here (really!), but I think the generalization about people buying lux cars just for image simply doesn't hold water.

I owned a series of 4 BMW's in a row (a 740i and 3 different 540i's) over a period of about 10 or 11 years, and it was because I considered the cars to be bulletproof, high-quality, good-looking automobiles that rode and handled well, were rattle-free and trouble-free, and ran like snot. Sure, it was nice to feel like I was in a classy car, but the main reason for me to shell out my hard-earned wasn't to make other people jealous ... it was because these were great cars to own and drive.

Now, I don't doubt that some people buy Bimmers and Mercs just to show off, but heck, some people buy Priuses and VW Beetles to show off, too.

So, if I bought BMW's for "image", it was for their image of being fabulous cars. And I don't think I'm the exception.
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CL6

The RL's AWD system has a FWD-bias. So when you are crusing down the freeway you are at 80% FWD. When you floor it you are at 60% FWD. Now if somebody wants to dig up the exact stats on the Lexus RX I'd be interested to know what their bias is.

On a side note, Acura is so serious about making the RL feel luxurious that they've reduced the 12 months XM to 3 months. Same as the TSX.

lland

That's probably an XM mandate. They are hurting financially (as is Sirius) and probably doesn't want to give away a year when the same people who resubscribe after a year would probably do so after three months.

LL

phins2rt

CL6,
Any scuttlebutt on when the incentives will return? I think Acura is cheapening the brand with these but what can they do? People are expecting to pay 42-44K for a RL Tech now.

CL6

Okay I looked into the Lexus 0-60 times. Interesting stuff!

IS250 RWD: 7.9
IS250 AWD: 8.3

GS350 RWD: 5.7
GS350 AWD: 5.8

RX350 FWD: 7.3
RX350 AWD: 7.4

So not sure about the whole AWD/2WD thing.

mrdeeno

i think you are wrong and it absolutely holds water, and you and a lot of other RL buyers are the exception rather than the rule that most midsize lux-sedan buyers DO buy the car for image, and included in the image and price is the (mis)impression that the car is more reliable, better quality, better performance, or whatever else.

I know plenty of non-car people who think MB, BMW, Audi, even VW, are more reliable than non premium cars and use the expression "You get what you pay for" to justify it. ask any non-car person what is more reliable, a $45k Audi or $15k Civic, and chances are they will tel you the Audi is more reliable.

mrdeeno

I don't think it makes any difference to XM since Acura was paying them for the first year anyway. Going to 3 months instead of a year saves Acura money.

dwboston

From Wikipedia: "The system sends 70% of power to the front wheels and 30% to the rear under normal conditions but these ratios can reverse according if needed. The system can work because the clutches can slip under circumstances where the vehicle is turning, thus allowing the rear and front wheels to turn at different rates around a curve on dry surfaces."

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SH-AWD"

Unless the torque display lies, then the system certainly is not 80% FWD biased on the freeway. It seems to be in AWD more often than not while cruising. Anecdotally of course.

CL6

You shouldn't trust Wikipedia! My numbers are from the 2007 Acura RL brochure. I can assure you that they are correct. The 70% is for moderate cornering.

Why would you need AWD if you're driving down the freeway in a straight line? You'd just waste gas. Acura thinks this stuff through!

mike03a3

FWIW, this TL owner thinks Acura needs a new flagship sedan. Lexus built their franchise around a RWD V8, the antithesis of their Toyota roots, to create a high end luxury image. Then they went down market to build volume with smaller, less luxurious cars, and later by adding SUVs. They also set out to establish a differentiated customer experience at the dealerships, aiming for the way high end European brands treated their customers.

Now, they have moved the TL up to the point where is is competing with the RL in many ways. If they add SH-AWD to the TL, as many predict, it will narrow the gap even further, especially if it becomes standard on the TL.

Personally, I think they need to make the next generation RL on a larger RWD platform, with the top of the line RL including a V8. Their bread and butter RL will no doubt remain a 6cyl by a wide margin. A larger RL could potentially even have the NSX V-10 as the premium model, just as Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar had V-12s. Not a lot of takers, but they sure put a stake in the ground on defining the cars as high-end luxury.

Let the TL become the sports sedan, hopefully with both coupe and convertible versions.

Just my $ 0.02.

CL6

No incentives on any 07s for February so far. I think they realized they hurt the brand so I don't think any will return for a while. They have cut way back on RL production so we'll see...

Chas2

I am not sure what the issue is, because I have not taken the time to pick out the subthread on torque splits, but this is what Acura says about SH-AWD. There is a lot more detail in this the two web pages encompassing this document, but I think this is the pertinent part about torque splits.

http://hondanews.com/CatID3007?mid=2...61049&mime=asc

SUPER HANDLING ALL-WHEEL DRIVE SYSTEM(TM)

Super Handling All-Wheel Drive(TM) (SH-AWD(TM)) is an innovative all-wheel drive platform that distributes the optimum amount of torque not only between the front and rear wheels but also between the left and right rear wheels. SH-AWD(TM) goes a step beyond conventional all-wheel drive by actively controlling the torque delivered to each rear wheel during corning. The result is neutral, accurate steering when cornering under power that front-drive, rear-drive or conventional all-wheel-drive can't equal.

Torque splits are as follows:

* During straight-line cruising and moderate cornering below about half throttle, up to 70 percent of the torque is delivered to the front wheels.
* In full-throttle straight line acceleration, up to 40 percent of the power is sent to the rear axle.
* In hard cornering, up to 70 percent of available torque goes to the rear wheels for enhanced chassis balance. Up to 100 percent of this torque can be applied to the outside rear wheel and that wheel can be overdriven up to five percent by the acceleration device if the situation dictates.

SH-AWD(TM) ingeniously varies the amount of torque to the left and right rear wheels. When cornering, a planetary gear set overdrives (or accelerates) the rear wheels while individual right and left clutch packs direct torque to either or both rear wheel, faster than the average of the front wheels to dramatically enhance the cornering, steering feel, overall handling and stability of the RL. The result is class leading cornering precision as well as enhanced traction.

dwboston

Then maybe you will believe this from Acura Media:

"From Acura Media: "During straight line cruising and moderate cornering, up to 70 percent of torque is delivered to the front wheels. During full throttle acceleration or spirited driving, up to 70 percent of available torque is directed to the rear wheels for increased acceleration and enhanced cornering. In addition to varying the torque front to rear, SH-AWD varies the amount of torque to the left and right rear wheels. When cornering, this ground-breaking technology overdrives the outer rear wheel by up to 5 percent using an exclusive acceleration device, while electromagnetic clutches send up to 100 percent of rear torque to that wheel to dramatically enhance the RL's cornering, steering feel, handling and stability. The result is class-leading cornering performance and cornering stability as well as enhanced traction on dry or wet surfaces."

Here is the link that contains the Acura Media reference: http://www.concept/vehicle/z10590/default.aspx

GoHawks

My point is that regardless of whther the RL sends more torque to the front or rear at any given moment, the point is that it sends torque to both ends.

My understanding of the VTM-4 system in the previous gen MDX and also the setup in the RX is that it's primarily a FWD vehicle until traction (or lack thereof) requires torque to be redistributed to the rear wheels. (I'm trying to find facts to backup my thoughts)

In the latter example, you get better gas mileage and potentially better straightline performance since you're only using AWD when you need it.

SH-AWD as we all know was intended to go beyond just an aid for bad weather. It's intended to actively enhance the handling of the vehicle in BOTH good and bad weather.

dwboston

The board software wouldn't let me edit my previous message so I thought I would add that if "up to 70%" of available torque is going to the front wheels during straight line cruising, then that means that at least 30% of torque is going to the rear wheels at that time. That would seem to confirm the activity seen on the SH-AWD torque display in the MID when on the highway. Both the front and rear wheels are always receiving torque in straight line cruising. That seems to be the way Acura thought it out.

CL6

I appreciate your efforts to disprove me! But notice in all of your citations 'moderate cornering' is included. So they ALL say during straightline driving AND moderate cornering. The 2007 RL brochure breaks out straight line cruising from moderate cornering. As it says... 80% vs. 70%.

You guys understand the difference? I even pulled an RL manual and there is no % breakdown in there.

GoHawks is correct in his understanding of the previous generation MDX AWD/4WD system upon which the SH-AWD is built. Both systems are designed with a FWD-bias. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

So it's 80% and 70%!

GoHawks

The literature I read on the RL is that it can direct as much as 70% torque to the front or rear wheels.

So your extremes are...

70% Front/30% Rear
or
30% Front/70% Rear (Usually oon hard straight line acceleration)

Of whatever torque is being distributed to the rear (subset of the above number), up to 100% can be directed to either rear wheel.

It is my understanding also that during sedate highway cruising, the RL will be FWD biased, but saying that, the rear wheels are always getting *some* torque.

CL6

Depending upon throttle inputs, traction sensors, etc. you can have more power sent to the rear wheels and, of course, up to 100% torque sent the the outside rear cornering wheel. The rear is always getting some power and torque, but why send it back there unless it's really needed?

I think the only way I will be believed is if I show a copy of the brochure!

GoHawks

I believe you. I thought the extreme was 70/30 either way, but I could be mistaken and it be 80/20. I have a brochure at home as well. I checked the website, but they just refer to the rear (left to right) distribution.

GoHawks

I knew I got the number from somewhere.

The link below was posted here before. It's Honda's overview of SH-AWD. You don't have to watch the whole video (11 minutes), but within the first 3 minutes the narrator mentions that the front/rear torque distribution can go from 70/30 to 30/70.

Maybe they tuned the RL differently.

http://world.honda.com/HDTV/news/2004-4040401a/

Mike_TX

This has been an entertaining thread, but does anyone remember what the original subject was before it got gang-hijacked?

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neuronbob

I think this thread has run its course.