Fabvsix

RL's numbers are headed towards the tanks!

TORRANCE, Calif., Feb. 1 /PRNewswire/ -- Propelled by sales of the all-new 2007 MDX luxury performance SUV, Acura sold a January record of 5,951 light trucks, up 48.7 percent versus last year, the division announced today. The previous record of 4,165 was set in January 2004.

Overall, Acura began 2007 with sales of 13,017 units sold for the month, down 10.6 percent from a year ago based on the daily selling rate that included one fewer day than last January.* MDX led Acura sales for the month with 4,153 units sold, eclipsing its total from a year ago by 3.8 percent and making it the model's second-best January ever.

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"We are certainly pleased with the way customers have reacted to the new MDX," said Dick Colliver, executive vice president, sales. "The combination of its dynamic styling and track-tuned performance have really hit home."

Continuing its steady sales pace, the turbocharged RDX crossover SUV sold 1,798 units for the month. Meanwhile, sales of the TSX sports sedan totaled 2,628 units.

* All percentages calculated on 25 selling days in January 2007, versus 24 selling days in January 2006.




American Honda Vehicle Sales For January 2007
Month-to-Date Year-to-Date
January January DSR** January January DSR**
2007 2006 % Chg. 2007 2006 % Chg.
MODEL BREAKOUTS BY
DIVISION
Acura Division Total 13,017 13,981 -10.6% 13,017 13,981 -10.6%
RSX 127 1,288 -90.5% 127 1,288 -90.5%
TL* 3,878 4,868 -23.5% 3,878 4,868 -23.5%
TSX 2,628 3,204 -21.3% 2,628 3,204 -21.3%
RL 433 773 -46.2% 433 773 -46.2%
NSX 0 7 0 7
MDX* 4,153 3,841 3.8% 4,153 3,841 3.8%
RDX* 1,798 0 1,798 0
Selling Days 25 24 25 24

* Honda and Acura vehicles are made of domestic and global sourced
parts.
** Daily Selling Rate

CL6

A little easier to read...

neuronbob

Wow. Only 433 RL units sold last month.

Don't know what to say to that.

Fabvsix

V-8 V-8 V-8 V-8 V-8

VOdoc

Time for an incentive or marketing campaign maybe? Or has Acura just decided the RL is a red-headed stepchild??

Fabvsix

They should have kept the 04 RL body style for the old folks with improvements like a V-8 and offered the newer RL as a "sport version" for the yuppie crowd......They LOST a huge amount of business with this new design......Lexus got most of them (LS430) customers......

neuronbob

That's what jhr3uva90 thinks. Maybe he's right.

BTW, I figured out what to say.

Acura CL! Sales went pretty much the same way.

phins2rt

It will be interesting to see. Does anyone know if this is the worst sales month for RLs? Hasn't it been pretty steady around 700 per month?

kirbyflorida

Great car, just need to educate the public.
Advertising.

jhr3uva90

Has anyone looked at THE BIG PICTURE? For example, Lexus is a much more popular brand than Acura, yet sales of their GS (the RL's closest competitor) have also plummeted.

According to phins2rt:

"All I have is Lexus:

GS350 1368 -22% from Jan 06
Gs430/450h 183 -37% from Jan 06 (talk about exclusive)"

I haven't seen Infiniti's sales yet, but I have a feeling that the M's sales aren't increasing by leaps and bounds either. I have seen a press release about Audi's sales, however. Among Audi models, only the A4 increased volume, which implies that the A6's sales either stayed the same or actually decreased.

In other words, it looks like the OVERALL MARKET for mid-size sedans in the $40K - $55K range is struggling. The only exceptions will be the brands with devoted customers who are relatively insensitive to price. In other words, if it isn't a BMW, Mercedes, or Caddy, the it car is probably suffering from lower or flat sales right now.

Now regarding a V8. . . see how many V8/hybrid based GS cars Lexus sold? 183 units! If Acura had released a V8 version of the RL, the proportional number of V8 RLs sold would have been about 57.923 units (roughly 12%) of all units sold. So, is it worth it for Honda to develop a V8 engine just for the RL so it can sell about 58 extra cars? No! Now, if Honda develops a V8 (or better yet V10) and places it in several vehicles like Toyota does for Lexus, then it might be somewhat practical. Anyway, my point is that a V8 RL would not improve sales by much (12% maybe). There are some qualitative "bragging rights" to having such a vehicle available, but the quantitative sales numbers don't really justify a V8 at this time.

static808

Great car, total shame it gets no props. So when is the FMC going to happen with the RL, can we say 2009? I just hope the next version will be a serious looker. Everybody loves my RL's interior but it screams bland on the outside. I agree, some of the time.

If Honda can't make a V8 that's better than Toyota, then, Honda has lame engineers, and we all know that's not true. There just too conservative.

jhr3uva90

I don't doubt that Honda can make a "better" V8 than Toyota. The question is whether a V8 could substantially lift RL sales. Considering that roughly 10% - 15% of the sales in the price range are for V8-based cars, I would say "no." And you have to take into account the cost of developing/engineering such an engine, plus the marginal cost of manufacturing V8-based RLs. It simply isn't worth it to sell an extra 60 cars across the United States. And what about the rest of the world? I would assume that in other countries where gasoline costs more than in the USA, a V8-based car would be an even harder sell.

Regarding looks, did you see the previous generation BMW 5 Series or Mercedes S Class? Those two cars were "conservative" in their styling and still sold well. Meanwhile, the Lexus GS is the first to implement the new L-Finesse design language and it isn't sell all that well for a Lexus.

The simple fact is that the RL is an Acura, and relatively few households in the USA that can afford a $45K car will spend that kind of money for the Acura brand, especially when they can get a Mercedes, BMW, or Caddy. Either Acura needs to build up the brand, or they need to be like Volvo and stop making vehicles with a base price of over $40K.

VOdoc

It's ironic that Acura, which preceded Toyota's Lexus as an upmarket luxury brand in the US, is perceived as having lesser status. That refined, elderly gent who does the Lexus voice-overs has really brainwashed the public into associating Lexus with luxury.

I still think the quickest way to redefine the marque is to re-badge the 2008 RL as the Acura Legend. That's what it is--but no one knows it. Sales would quadruple (which, I'll readily admit, ain't saying that much...).

jhr3uva90

Unfortunately, being first doesn't mean much in this world. Just ask Netscape.

I would love to have a car called "Legend." However, that goes against current brand management theories, which claim that you need to emphasize the make of the car, not the model. That's why every luxury car brand either uses hard to remember alphanumeric model names, or they are converting over to such names as soon as they can. The Caddy DeVille is now the DTS and the Seville is now the STS. Soon the Escalade will be the only Caddy with an actual name. Lincoln is moving in the same direction. Mercedes probably invented this strategy and Toyota implemented this strategy really well with Lexus.

As far as building the Acura brand, we have been discussing this in this forum for months. Killing off the RSX was a good move, in my opinion. It is difficult to think of Acura as Honda's luxury brand when they had an Acura that cost less than some Hondas. Taking the word "Honda" off the glass helps, also. Of course, making the dealerships live up to a consistent standard of quality will go a LONG way, in my opinion.

Of course, the first question is whether Honda really wants Acura to be like Lexus. Maybe they are satisfied with being the Japanese Volvo. After all, the median household income in the USA is around $44K - $46K, from what I can remember, so it isn't like there is a huge market for new luxury cars. We'll see what happens. In the meanwhile, the luxury car market is suffering, and it has been predicted that the entire US car sales will decrease this year. Think about it this way: I'd rather Acura than Jaguar or Lincoln.

lland

Interesting...I've actually started seeing more RLs on the road lately. A couple of months ago, I'd see maybe one a day or so. Lately it's been three or four.

LL

GoHawks

I thought the old design was booooring. I often looked at the previous gen, but I couldn't get myself to want to buy it.

I had no doubts about it's comfort and reliability, it just looked ...... well I kinda felt it would be like buying a Buick.

When the new design came out, I WANTED it. Naybe not as passionately when seeing pictures, it was after I Looked at a Lexus GS and then decided to look at the RL more closely. I was hooked.

That's Acura's problem. They need to get people in the showroom to look and drive the car. I'm sure then they would get more sales.

kappa821

thats pretty bad they sold that little RL. I think a major factor is that the differences between the TL and RL arent leap and bounds. Therefore, not worth the extra 15000 dollars. I personally think that they need to make it bigger and with a V8. I dunno there is a lot of tough competition around that 50k mark: 5 series, Infiniti M series, GS, Benz, Audi. Stiff competition. Plus those other manufactuerers just had a redesign on most of those cars.

I dont think having the Honda label is a bad or a great thing either. Most people in the USA know that Hondas make great cars. One of the reasons I went to Acura.

lland

I find the V8 thing kind of amusing. Most of the Rl's competion are six cylinder cars. I hardly see an M45 but see plenty of M35s. It appears to me that FX35s outnumber FX45s 10 - 1. Lexus, BMW, Mercedes all have 6 cylinder cars in the RL class that outsell the V8 version by a wide margin. I think that if the "reviewers" gave praise to the "strong, smooth V6 (much like the competition)" instead of saying "where's the v8," it wouldn't be an issue. The problem is that even though the direct cometitors sport 6 cylinder engines, their manufacturers have 8s and even though they are mostly in cars that don't compete directly with the RL, do exist whereas you can't get an 8 in any Honda/Acura vehicle (yet).

LL

jhr3uva90

Time to cause drama: if the TL and the new TL Type S are so wonderful, why did sales decline 23.5% from a year before?

CL6

The Acura line-up is getting towards being Done, that's why.

And for the RL I think that 4 grand incentive on the 06s hurt that car a lot. Now everybody is expecting it for the 07.

phins2rt

For the brand loyal folks, the RDX may be taking some of the sales...

mrdeeno

not to get into this lack of V8 argument again, but i continually have to scratch my head and wonder WHY so many people are so shortsighted.

saying that if they had a V8 and sell 10 V8 models per month as justification for not having a V8 is VERY shortsighted. Having a V8 is not so they can sell more V8 models...having a V8 is so they can improve their image and sell more V6 models. Image is what sells these cars...no V8 is a big hit on image and makes people think that Acura can't compete with the big boys. Who wants to buy a car from a brand that implies, "We can't compete with the best"?

ask all the people spending $45k+ for their midsize luxury sedan why they chose their car, and I'll bet that 90% of the people will give you answers that are based on subjective things that make up "image" rather than real world objective qualities.

pop quiz:

Which is better?

a) having a V8, potential for better brand image and growth, and selling 1000+ V6 models per month

or

b) no V8, a semi-premium image, handful of excuses for not building a V8, and struggling to sell 500 V6 models per month

A V8 does not necessarily mean they will have better image, but a V8 IS a requirement for it.

GoHawks

For once I agree with you. A V8 doesn't necessarily make the RL a "better" car, but having a V8 as an option improves the image of the brand.

I think I mentioned it in another thread.... Toyota gets to spread the cost of their V8 among many different models. While the displacement may be different among the different models, the same basic V8 engine is in all of the following models.

Toyota 4Runner (optional)
Toyota Sequoia
Toyota Land Cruiser
Lexus GS430
Lexus SC430
Lexus GX470
Lexus LX 470
Lexus LS 460

Did I miss any? That's a lot of models to spread the R&D costs to. Currently Honda really doesn't have a model that could accept a V8 with the exception of maybe the RL.... Maybe.

Honda has just never had the long term vision to embrace a V8 in it's future and as such, it's product line is not designed to accept one. How long did it take for them to put a V6 in an Accord, while the Camry had one for years.

One can only hope that the next-gen NSX and RL will be the start.

CL6

You missed the upcoming IS.

The NSX will have a V10.

Honda has a V8... it is for racing though.

GoHawks

True, but I was highlighting current models.

neuronbob

I totally disagree with this assessment. Honda's philosophy has always been against the automotive grain....rather than having a power shoot-out with the competition, it is about a balance in environmentalism and ergonomics in its automobiles. A V8 outisde of Honda's racing would have been seen as wasteful. It took so long to make a V6 Accord because V6s are less fuel efficient than I-4s and Honda wanted to bring a reasonably fuel efficient engine to market. Why else would Honda's supercar, the NSX, sport a 290 hp V6 rather than a V8, 10, or 12 like any other automaker would have made?


It's not about lack of vision. Like President Bush (sorry...bad example...but appropriate....)...Honda has chosen to stick to its roots, for better or worse. It works most of the time, but hasn't been lately, and that philosophy doesn't work for a luxury brand. By definition, luxury is excess, whether in speed, fuel consumption, or comfort. For Acura to change, the high-level executives in Japan have to make a choice: Go all-out in luxury for Acura, especially now that it is branching into other countries, find a way to stick to its values at the same time it satisfies its luxury customers, or just forget about it altogether and scrap the brand.

I'm not counting Acura out yet. I am SURE Honda will come up with the most fuel-efficient, gadget-laden, lightest ever V8 with enough power to satisfy us Americans...then spread it around like they have the J32 and J35 engines.

dwboston

Off-topic but I walked by an Audi S8 V10 this morning on my way into work. The color was kind of close to the CGP color of the RL. Absolutely beautiful car...and only $92,000.

It's important to remember that Honda is a much smaller company than Toyota, doesn't have the same financial resources, and thus can't take as many chances. A V8 would be great just for the "halo effect" but it's probably unrealistic from an R&D $ standpoint unless it could go in the MDX, Pilot, Accord, etc., and Honda could sell them in enough volume to recoup costs and turn a profit.

What is the actual market for V8 vehicles right now? Everything seems to be heading towards more fuel efficiency, hybrids, hydrogen, biofuels, etc. Gas prices may be somewhat stable right now but the geopolitical situation is unchanged: the oil supply is somewhat precarious and demand from emerging economies is increasing, and will for the forseeable future. V8 sales from the other brands are down, and are a small % of units sold. I'd love to see a V8 and I'd be first in line in 2009 to trade up to a 2010 V8 RL but I just don't see it happening.

mrdeeno

what do you mean "for once" you agree with me? If you read all my posts in all the threads concerning this issue, this has ALWAYS been my position concerning the need for a V8. But then the shortsighted people always chime in with, "but V8's make up such a small % of sales", and I can't argue with people unwilling to look past sales of only V8 models.

Currently, honda has a lot of vehicles that can use a V8, but currently NO models can accept a V8 because none of the current models were ever intended to have a V8. and a V8 is not for any current generation Honda or Acura, a V8 is needed for next generation platforms that will be engineered from the get-go to accept a V8 (unless they had the foresight to engineer the current MDX to accept a V8...but knowing Honda, this is very doubtful).

it just amazes me how out of touch Honda is with customers these days. Not that they are bad cars, but they totally miss the intended market. First the element, which is popular with the empty-nest crowd yet was conceived and designed for young people. Then the Ridgeline, which is supposed to be a soft "alternative" to conventional trucks when truck buyers don't buy trucks for being "soft". And the RL, which offers everything a midsize luxury buyer would need, yet doesn't realize that midsize luxury buyers don't buy what they need, they buy what they WANT...and that includes the image of a brand that is willing to compete with the big boys, not the image of a brand that makes excuses not to.

mrdeeno

yet they have the financial resources to R&D robots and jet engines which does nothing for their automotive image. Not to mention the resources and R&D that goes into a ONE-USE-ONLY platform for the NSX, or the ON-USE-ONLY platform for the S2000, or the ONE-USE-ONLY V10 for the next NSX.

for a company their size, they have PLENTY of resources. And for a company their size with the manufacturing flexibility, they have PLENTY of reasons to take more chances.

if you count ONLY V6 sales of the M, GS, E, or 5-series, they STILL outsell the RL.

Again, why are you focusing on raw sales of V8s? A V8 is for IMAGE to increase sales of non-V8 models. You never hear of an automaker saying they regret ever having a V8. But you will hear about them regretting that they don't (thanks for finally admitting it, Mr. Colliver).

GoHawks

Most of your past posts seemed to hint that the RL is an inferior car due to the lack of a V8. THat's where I've disagreed with you in the past.

The RL doesn't "NEED" a V8 to compete from a performance standpoint. The current V6 can be tuned a bit more aggressively to minimize the lack of low range torque.

A V8 is needed for Acura to be perceived as a serious contender in the luxury category.

Two different arguments.

Honda has always joined the "cylinder contest" late. As I mentioned before, they resisted putting a V6 in the Accord, stating that it wasn't needed. True, most people looking for reliable, basic transportation don't NEED a V6, and current sales continue to show that most Camrys and Accords are sold with 4-bangers. I highly doubt though that the current Accord would be as successful if it didn't offer the V6.

That same basic V6 now finds itself in numerous vehicles across the Honda/Acura line.

Same argument we're having with the V8

GoHawks

and I would argue that is has less than the individual performance ot those vehicles as many road test the RL has outperformed most of those vehicles.

My opinion is that those vehicles outsell the RL because their brand is perceived as a truer luxury margue than Acura.

jhr3uva90

Honda has resources for jet engines and robot because that's where the growth potential is. Face it, any analysts have predicted that overall auto sales will shrink this year. The drop in Ford's and Nissan's numbers indicate that those analysts might be right. Why should Honda push into the luxury market that is shrinking? I'm playing devil's advocate here, but numbers just aren't looking good overall, not just Honda or Acura.

Oh, and I agree with GoHawks. It is all about the brand. The Acura RL is like the VW Phaeton. People who pay large sums of money for cars are going to get the big luxury brand names like Benz or Caddy. That's just how folks are.

mrdeeno

if you go back and read through my posts in other threads concerning this topic, I NEVER said that the RL is an inferior car.

But I do remember saying it cannot "compete", and by "compete" i mean in total (taking into account every aspect including the all-important "image"). And the proof that the RL cannot compete with the others in this class is in the sales numbers.

mrdeeno

and that is my opinion also, and I reason that Acura is not perceived as a "true" luxury marque is because they lack a necessary requirement to be considered a true luxury marque: a V8.


Having a "can do" attitude and outdoing the competition (ie building a V8 that is head and shoulders BETTER than any out there) is what makes one's image "shine".

Not having a V8 when all your "competitors" have one and making excuses not to get into the game (ie. sales don't justify it; not good for the environment; etc) does not make one's image "shine". Actually, it gives the impression taht one does not want to compete because one doesn't have the "goods".

GoHawks

We're in violent agreement then.

cp3117

This is the thing. They wouldnt or at least i hope they wouldnt build a V8 just for the RL. They should develop one that could be used in the MDX, Ridgeline and others across the Honda/Acura line....HMC needs to get away from telling the consumer what they want and actually offering the consumer what they want.

dwboston

Ah, so they should make the decision solely for IMAGE. How exactly do V8's increase the sales of non-V8 models? Is there data to back that assertion up? The auto market overall is currently somewhat stagnant. Publicly traded companies need growth. Honda is focusing on areas with greater growth potential. Why spend hundreds of millions of $ developing a niche engine that will sell a relative handful of units compared to the rest of your product line, simply for a "halo effect?" It makes no sense financially. Honda's CEO would get tossed out on his butt for making a decision like that at the expense of greater growth elsewhere. The greater ROI potential comes from the higher growth areas of the business. Sadly, that is not autos right now.

sri_gondi

Agree on that..of not developing a V8 but HMC can certainly look towards an 6 speed SH-AWD.What do you think.

dwboston

I wish Honda would build a V8. But rationally it's probably not realistic right now. SH-AWD advancements are another story though - if Acura becomes the Japanese Audi and puts SH-AWD in all of its vehicles then we can certainly expect to see more improvements in the SH-AWD implementation just because of the economies of scale and spreading the investment across multiple model lines - maybe a 3.7L SH-AWD TL-S or RL-S with a 6 speed transmission.

super_call

1536 "M's" sold in January.



INFINITI DIVISION SALES
January
2007 January
2006 Monthly DSR
%Change CYTD
2007 CYTD
2006 CYTD DSR
%Change
Infiniti Division Total 8,964 8,057 6.8 8,964 8,057 6.8
I35 0 0 0 0 0 0
G35 Sedan 4,321 2,425 71.1 4,321 2,425 71.1
G35 Coupe 770 1,518 -51.3 770 1,518 -51.3
M 1,536 1,892 -22.1 1,536 1,892 -22.1
Q45 8 48 -84.0 8 48 -84.0
QX56 791 905 -16.1 791 905 -16.1
FX 1,538 1,267 16.5 1,538 1,267 16.5
- Total Car 6,635 5,883 8.3 6,635 5,883 8.3
- Total Truck 2,329 2,174 2.8 2,329 2,174 2.8