Today's New York Times - 8/30/07 - includes an article by James Cobb, favorably comparing the new 2008 Accord to RL and other Acuras,

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2007...-game-changer/

. His first impressions are very good, liking room, styling, fit, finish, nav and controls to RL and the other Acuras - except for the lack of SH-AWD, of course.

I've been planning on acquiring a 2008 RL when prices drop, but I must check out the new Accord EX L V6 first! Saving @$15k on a really close relative auto is a real consideration.

 

The Accord and TL are both built in Marysville. Having owned a TL, which I traded for the RL primarily over fit, finish and assembly issues, I cannot believe the Accord is up to par with the RL in those regards. It may have more content and dimensions comparable to the RL but I will wait and see on the fit, finish and assembly.

Now is they HAVE improved on those attributes, I would hope they would translate into the next TL with a fadeless dash, properly aligned glovebox doors, headliners that don't sag and the absence of creaks, pops and rattles from every interior component of the car.

 

My '03 Accord had absolutely none of these problems -- and since selling it to a family member, who's put another 30K miles on it in 2 years, I can report it still is tight as a drum.

Contrariwise, my '05 RL was a complete POS which rattled like the lungs of a 50 year smoker from the second I drove it off the lot. It wasn't until I got my '06 RL that I got one that was decently assembled.

So, I guess my '05 RL was made after the friday-afternoon sake break, and my 03 US-made Accord was made on a wednesday just before lunch?

 

Not good when your mainstream car (Accord) meets or beats your premium flagship (RL) in many basic characteristics - same engine size, same NAvi screen/system, same overall dimensions and capacity, at almost half the price.

 

Well ... maybe that's a bit of a stretch:

While both are 3.5 liters, the RL has 290 hp; the Accord has 268. The Navi screen may be similar, but I somehow doubt it will have all the RL's features and content (and if so, the next-gen RL will have even more). Dimensions and capacities are indeed similar, but that tells me the next RL will be even bigger.

In short, there is no way Honda can sell an RL dressed as an Accord for half the price. Just can't be done. Economically impossible. So you can count on the Accord being a bunch cheaper, and lacking in refinement, in some meaningful ways as compared to the RL.

What it DOES tell me is that the next RL will even more comprehensively equipped than the current one, because the "bridge" car (the Accord) ain't gonna be better-equipped than the luxury one (the RL). That would be marketing suicide.

So I think we should be encouraged to see the specs on the new Accord ... they foretell some exciting things for the flagship RL!

.
.

 

I do not know how you can say an Accord is so similiar to the RL.

First of all, the SH-AWD is a BIG deal, with carbon drive shaft, a BIG deal.

RL, aluminium tub frame, suspension, brake calipers, and more.

Fit and finish will be much better for sure, better warranty, I am sure much more in electronics.

Not sure of the Accord will have as good a traction control system.

Better tires, probably larger wheels and tires.

Much more.

 

I think to the average buyer, it is not a big deal, and people are stumped at the price of the RL.

also, there will always be lag time between upgrades for the different lines, it's just seems that this overlap is the closest ever between the H and the A.
I think Accord may steal some sales from the older TSX and maybe the TL too.
I think fuel economy is an increasing buying factor, I'm glad honda is getting back to focusing on mpg.

 

Not RL nice (yet) but TL nice.

Nobody really knows or really cares about a carbon fiber propellor shaft.

 

The RL is a drivers car, the aluminium and carbon shaft are part of reducing weight yet giving ride quality and performance.
Do you think ,most buyers know enough about the RL to even care, absolutely no.

I care about these things and the aluminium brake calipers but I do research and care that the RL gets skid pad numbers about the same as the NSX and does it with lesser tires and much more weight.
I drive my car different than most Lexus GS and LS owners by far.

You have your opinion and needs, I buy the RL, you can buy the Accord and save some money.
I buy a 73 inch TV, you buy something else, justiy what you will.
It only matters to each buyer.

 

It is a drive shaft, propellers are for boats.

 

The dealers fail to mention the propeller option.

 

I'm going to have faith in Acura on this one. I truly hope that faith is not misplaced.

I'm quite certain the next RL will be "ballin" compared to the Accord.

This Accord, however, has assured empty Acura sales floors for the next year. Potential Acura shoppers (who are mostly Honda owners) will think like my wife, who insisted I not pay an extra $15k for an Acura MDX over the Honda Pilot earlier this year. Being of the inferior sex, I had to bow to her will.

 

Actually, in the parts catalog, they absolutely use the term propellor shaft to describe the carbon fiber drive shaft. So no embarrassment needed here.

 

I absolutely agree with Bob; this new Accord is going to kill sales at the Acura dealers at least for the 2008 year. Why by a TL (except maybe a type S) when the accord has newer NAV ripped straight from the MDX and RL, more horsepower and I'd bet the interior is just as good. THe only fundamental difference now between the RL and the Accord is the SHAWD. The dimensions of the cars are almost identical. (its not even like the RL came with NICE wheels (why did they paint the magnesium instead of polishing it???) Things like carbon fiber driveshaft are meaningless. Even with all the weight saving aluminum used on the RL, it still weighs in at nearly 4,000 lbs. To paraphrase the guy in the Tirerack video circulating on Youtube (there is a link to it on one of the front pages of this forum) 'where did they save weight on this car? and I can only imagine how heavy it would have been without the use of aluminum and carbon fiber.'

Dont get me wrong, I like my RL, alot, as a highway cruiser, but it is a heavy car with considerable body roll and the gas mileage is only so-so considering the mediocre engine performance at low RPMs.

 

It looks like the new accord is meant to be an RL lite. Not a bad thing. The Rl is still more luxurious, better handling, more power and so on....... One interesting thing is that although the RL has been ignored, its new lesser in all terms, "sibling" is being touted as by a long shot the best midsize sedan, go figure. My guess is that the new accord now is almost identical to the TL, however, i'm sure the TL is still a significantly more sporting ride. It will be interesting how far the new TL will go!

 

The engine of the new Accord' can shut down 2 to 3 cylinders when cruising on the highway? Wow, that technology should belong to the flagship RL, not a pedestrian Accord!!

 

I think honda might have made the new accord too good. Despite it lacking a bit of power vs the RL, it has a power to weight ratio better than the TL or RL. So in theory it should be slightly quicker I'd guess. If your a honda exec I suppose this is all a good thing, but as mentioned it really it will impact TL sales for '08. RL sales probably won't change too much as the cliental are different. However I can't fault Honda as the accord is the bread and butter car. I just hope for Acura's case they come back strong with more tech to seperate the lineups.

 

Here are some ideas to consider:

1. The US Accord is sold in Japan as the Inspire which is one step below the Legend (our RL), so of course the Accord will have features similar to an RL.

2. Most of the features that made the RL unique 3 years ago are computer or consumer electronics based such as the navigation system and Active Noise Cancellation. Consumer electronics and computers tend to get cheaper with time, so it should be economical to put features like an advanced navigation system and a better audio system in the Accord now.

3. If the next RL is anything like every other Legend since 1986, Acura of North America will have little to do with the development. Lets hope Honda in Japan adds some nice goodies to the Legend/RL.

4. If Honda Motor Corporation REALLY wanted to differentiate the Acura brand from the Honda brand they would put the Acuras on a separate RWD platform. I don't think that is going to happen.

 

As I was told in June the '09 RL is going to be a BIG (power, size, price) car compared to the current RL/'08 Accord.

 

If the next RL is going to be based on the new version of the Global Mid-sized Platform, then I don't see how it will be much bigger than the new Accord.

 

Guys, guys. Unless Honda/Acura is planning on killing the RL entirely (which I don't believe), you can *count* on the next RL trumping the Accord ... and doing so fairly soundly.

In the first place, regardless how similar the dimensions, etc., may be, there is simply a much more luxurious "feel" to the RL than the Accord. Part of it is soundproofing, part is nicer materials, part of it is more sophisticated suspension, etc., etc. There is MUCH more to a car than its dimensions, and no Accord is ever going to be the car the RL is. Cars cost money to build, and Honda can't afford to give away RL-style amenities for Accord prices.

Okay, the navigation system. Even if the Accord has all the same features as our current RL's system, let's face it - even though it's the best out there, the current RL system is getting a little old, and the Accord is basically getting a hand-me-down system. I'm willing to bet the farm that the new RL system will blow the current one away. It's almost sure to have a hard drive, will maybe have automatic updating via Acuralink, will store music and photos, will have iPod/iPhone integration, and do lots of other cool stuff. Then the '08 Accord system will look kinda lame by comparison.

The bottom line is that for the Accord to truly be the equal of the RL, it would have to be priced like the RL (which it ain't). Therefore, it won't have the refinement, the cushiness, the luxury, or the thousand other qualities that separate luxury cars from mainstream cars.

Sure, some people will opt for Accords over RL's ... but those are people who either can't tell the difference between an Accord and an RL (hard as that is to believe), or who just don't care about the difference.

Me - I'm getting more pumped about what the next RL is going to offer. If the '08 Accord is any indication, I'm thinking it's gonna be a real show-stopper!

.
.

 

I wouldn't worry about the Accord. Sure, there will be those simplistic folks that point to some features or dimensions that seem to be fairly close to the RL. But lets face it, the Accord wasn't meant as a slap in the face to the RL. It was meant to destroy the competition. It NEEDED to be big and feature packed, our Acura models notwithstanding. It's Honda's bread and butter. But would I for 1 second believe the Accord = the RL....or even comes close? No way.

As many have pointed out, to have an Accord with big dimensions and feature packed, it only means the RL as well as the TL and TSX are going to be that much better in the next generation.

 

Reuters on Honda's weaking luxury segment

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070831/...da_luxury_dc_1

He [John Mendel, senior vice president of U.S. auto operations at Honda] said Honda is now focused on separating its Honda and Acura brands in design, technology and engineering. Current Acura models share designs with Honda models.

"I think you will see a very different Acura in the next three to four years," he said, declining to add further details.

 

RL is 0.87 NSX is 0.95. It's close... but it ain't an NSX. Comparing the two is like, well, putting the Accord next to the RL. And driving an RL is nothing like driving an NSX in any way, shape, or form except for the name on the car.

Carbon fiber shaft/propellor all that stuff is great, so you're saving a few pounds. People care about more visible stuff when they're looking to buy a car, they care about the other stuff maybe after to justify what they bought.

 

I have the 2006 Acura RL sales bocklet, it says per Honda "In our skinpad testing, the RL achieved .89g of lateral force -just shy of the .90g put up by the Acura NSX, our exotic supercar."

I have both cars, RL and my second NSX, and on the street with SH-AWD and the Aspec suspension, the RL is MUCH more sure footed around most corners, while the NSX will lose the back end, the RL just goes, much more confidence on most turns, but not all.
On the race track no comparison.
All these things I mentioned on the RL help to get it to work so well.
You are correct, MOST people look for visible stuff, I look under the skin, as most of us said, the RL is a drivers car for people who do research on their cars. Probably one reason the RL is not selling as well as image cars.

 

I could not agree more. RL is for people that know the REAL value compared to other cars in its class. I've watched the video for GS350 AWD from lexus.com and I can say the RL AWD is more advance (far more?). The leather in ES 350 looks really cheap, GS350 is a somewhat better. I think for most people, with the same amount of money, they would rather have a Lexus than an Acura. Nobody at my wife's workplace excites about Acura. They said Acura is just another upscale Honda! I don't think people say the same thing about Lexus and Toyota, even with Lexus ES350. I hope something dramatically happens at Acura; otherwise, Acura is just another second-tier luxury player.
At Lexus dealership, they have thick books about Lexus history (all models, all passions going into cars, their fight to the top...). I wish they had that at Acura dealership to show how passionate Acura is about cars.

 

I saw several detailed reviews on the new Accord and its pretty impressive. As mentioned by most on this thread, its pretty damn close to the Acura's in features and function.

The TL will suffer the most since our friend Dick Colliver at Acura has mentioned that the TL and Accord are the most cross-shopped cars in the near-luxury / entry-luxury market segment.

With Honda saying they will separate Acura and Honda, that has to happen across the board. For Example: The NAV's have to be different. On Edmunds they show the 08 Accord NAV and it has the same menu as my 05 RL, not good. They have to up-scale all the Acura electronics (NAV, Sound System, features, enhancements, etc...), give it that - ohh ahh treatment not changing the initial boot-up screen from Honda Navigation System to Acura Navigation System...that doesn't work.

Seeing a new Accord and how its going to eat Camry's lunch is great news for Honda. Not many people cross shop Toyota and Lexus because there is a uplift in the components and where it matters most --> fit-n-finish. Lexus has done a great job and Infiniti is pouring money into their marketing...I guess Acura is waiting for the 09's to finally make that separation complete.

I definitely want to see it and if that Reuters article is true, then Honda Exec's have finally given the nod to move ahead or as they say in the commercials....Advance.

 

The Accord is HoMoCo's bread and butter - without it there would be no RL, or Acura. The bigger success it is, the more money Honda has to develop Acuras. I think this is the trend to move Acura more upscale, at least more up-price, as witnessed by the MDX and RL (and even the TL TLS). Acura will definitely suffer (more) this year but it's inevitable when introing new models in different lines.
If the Accord is more Acura like than ever I just wonder what the new TSX, TL, and RL will offer. Mixed for me, as I won't pay Lexus prices.
If I get an RL it will be used and around $30k. I prefer to put as little $ as possible into car depreciation.

 

The Accord and TL are made on the same assembly line, same plant in US.

 

Yeah I know when I read that I was like huh that's interesting. I trust Car & Driver more for stuff like that. They returned 0.93 for the NSX and 0.87 for the RL. Acura would of course pick the best numbers out there I think. The top number they managed for the TL was 0.91 (October 2005). Back then, once I started looking for the numbers it became clear to me that something was up.

At any rate, I wouldn't want to drive any of those cars to that limit.

It's cool you own an NSX... truly one of the most awesome performance cars ever built IMO. And one of the few designed with the 'less is more' philosophy.

And it's great when people get so into their cars that they know about all of the 'hidden' value their rides have. Making that stuff shine thru everything else, however, is something that Acura hasn't figured out how to do... yet.

 

Why?

The nav in my Land Cruiser is the same nav offered in Lexus models. I believe similar nav systems are offerend in Camrys and 4Runners.

Again, the majority of people buy image.

Lexus screams image, Acura as of yet does not.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Acura's image is based on value; it is the Wal-Mart of luxury brands. If Wal-Mart started selling Nordstrom quality stuff, even if it is 10 - 20% cheaper than Nordstrom and better than Nordstrom, people would not buy it simply because it is expensive Wal-Mart stuff. You can't have a $46,000 value car. At that price point it is all about image. Image is what endures even in an economic downturn. That's why the Mercedes E class and the BMW 5 series continue to have strong sales, while the other competitors' sales are slipping.

 

......and these last few comments bring us back to our longstanding discussion on what Acura's weakest suit is......


It takes money to market, and the message has to be one of luxury with technological and environmental competence, which is what Acura is all about. Owners figure that stuff out AFTER they buy.

Unfortunately, Acura's lack of marketing skills ruins their sales and could ultimately ruin the brand. I think the marketing arm for Acura should be dumped and replaced with a DIFFERENT company than who does Honda's ads. Hell, sell a few to rappers or other stars so they can start talking about the "Ac with the map" again in their songs instead of Lexi or Benzes. Sponsor more high-profile events outside of the racing world, where people with money hang out. Have the Robb Report do a story on the meticulousness of design of the next RL. Viral marketing via YouTube? I'm no marketing guy and I can come up with that stuff.

If you can't convince people outside of the Honda family that your cars are luxury cars, then you're hosed.

 

From the October issue of Automobile magazine: "I suspect that Acura dealers are the only people who will seriously dislike the new Accord--when there's only a 17-hp gap between the everyman Accord and the nearly $50,000 Acura RL, you're beginning to run into a branding problem."

The above only adds to the fact that the new '09 RL will have to be much bigger, much more powerful, and much more expensive than the current RL. Unfortunately, if that is true, many current Acura RL owners will not be able to afford the new model when it's time to trade, or worse yet, the Acura brand will slowly fade into history, but that might be a good thing for Honda.

 

That would pretty much guarantee that I'd never buy one.

 

I would ordinarily tend to agree, but it's interesting that Infiniti (who I consider one of Acura's prime competitors) has left the M35 at 280 hp while the upstart little brother G35 comes in at 306. I know it would be more "apples-to-apples" to compare the M to the Camry, but it shows not everyone uses horsepower as the measure of luxury. Or even price.

But I still say the things they did with the Accord only mean the next-gen RL is going to be more exciting than I expected. Honda has set Acura up for either a boom or a bust ... if the new RL doesn't blow the doors off the company's own Accord, Acura might as well fold its tent and go home. And since the Accord sets the bar so high, an RL that will blow its doors off will also wow the competition.

I'm beginning to get really excited about '09!

 

Good ole American HP has always been a measure of luxury before the Oil Embargo of the late 70's put the kibosh on our cars. Those were the days of BIG family cars having about 150 HP tops. My 1982 Camaro Z28 had all of 175 HP using the measuring system of that time. As the HP race heats up again (the '08 CTS has 306 HP to add cachet and bring in extra $$$$) and 300 HP seems to be the benchmark, the '09 RL will have to have at least 340-350 HP to stay in the race. The last generation RL with its 200 HP was a very nice car, but mostly driven by senior citizens, which I am now. It seems the notion that RLs are still slow and stogy is still around. Lexus tried to decrease HP and sales took a deep dive. Now look at their HP ratiings. The fact Acura had to take down the 300 HP rating to the current 290 was a real blow to marketing. Acura will have to hit a home run with the '09 RL and '09 TL or fold its tent. There are only so many drivers who want to own an MDX and those numbers will be dropping soon.

 

Ironically, Acura is a marketing company that doesn't market very well. By "marketing company" I mean Acura dos not have its own manufacturing plants, engineers, finance people, etc. Yet they have had a really hard time, it seems, defining Acura from a marketing standpoint.

Personally, I think that if Honda really wants Acura to flourish as a luxury brand, they would stop making every sedan they have from the same platform that they use for every mid-sized car they have. If Honda wants Acura to flourish, they need to go RWD for starters. Also, they should get past that "we'll give you everything except options" mentality as well. That save manufacturing costs, but reduces sales. The RL has only one engine? Please. The RL only comes with AWD? Whatever.

This brings us to the big question: what does HMC want to do with Acura? Do they simply want to extend their current platforms to enable economy of scale or do they want to create a true luxury brand? Evidence shows they are fine with the former.

 

Honda is conservative, and Acura is quietly sophisticated. They seem to believe the engineering speaks for the products...and the average human would understand that. Unfortunately I worry when I see the average humans we share the road with.

But to take a twist on the Celeb marketing, I have an idea!

Picture this commercial.....

* Lindsay Lohen in an RL crashes into a car / pole / building... (as usual).

* Lindsay gets out of the RL, staggers away, fleeing responsibilty... (as usual).

* Camera pans back to RL, zooming in on air bags and relatively intact RL with flashing text highlighting the RLs safety attributes & 5 Star NHTSA ratings...

Then the voice over (David Spade I believe does Acura commercial voice over).

"Overcome Darwinism: Advance (and evolve) to the Acura RL"

*fade out*

 

The Wikipedia has a real good definition of what a luxury car is/should be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_car It states the RL is a mid-lux and the TL an entry-lux, and I agree. As a car nut I was drawn to the TL and then the RL by the great reviews that had been written about them, and the fact they were realtively inexpensive for what you got. The 2003 CTS I owned for awhile had every available option and cost me $40K in December of 2002. It was an entry-lux and now is a mid-lux. At the time the STS had a MSRP around $45K and went up to $75K will all the options. The '08 Accord is now close to the entry-lux category. As a result, Acura will have to raise the bar a lot higher to keep the TL and RL, etc. in the mid-lux category. I do not see Acura entering the high-lux category. I have never figured out who Acura is trying to target with their cars. Are they like Toyota who makes their Lexus cars from the same platforms, should Acuras be based on their own chassis with singular refinements? Right now the line between Honda and Acura is blurry. I see teenagers driving Acuras and I see senior citizens driving Acuras. To me the TL should be aimed at the 35-49 age group, and the RL to the 50+ group who have a personal and/or household income of $100K+.