kkimjames

It might be too soon yet, but have any idea when new 07 RL is coming out?
Any changes in options?
Thanx...

TacoBellSauce

i believe there arent any changed and it will probably come out around november december

Mike_TX

There's lots of talk that the '07 may come out as a "base" model, with the extras as options ... rather than fully loaded as they are now.

Acura dealers are crying that RL's aren't moving, that they're having to to offer deep discounts to sell them, and that they need a lower price point to work with. The only way to do all that is to strip away some of the goodies and at least make the price LOOK lower!

jhr3uva90

Here's my random guess: whatever the upcoming MDX will have, the 2007 RL will have.

jkuniverse

I doubt that '07 will have any major changes - probably not for another couple of years. My best guess would be, different wheels, subtle grill(front) changes, ventillated(AC) seats, availablilty of base models, more color choices, increase in horse power, 6 speed auto? etc... We'll see.

CL6

They gotta do something. We sell 1-2 RLs per month. I haven't sold one in... 8 or 9 months. Car sucks to sell, honestly. Too many questions like: "Why's this $14,000 more than the TL?" and "BMW's leases are cheaper though it costs more than the RL, why?"

bkw

Where's your dealership?? Around here I see more RL's than 5 series BMW's.

If you do work for a dealership, are you privy to insider information?

jhr3uva90

I've said it before and I'll say it again: RL sales seem to be stratified by region.

That being said, I think Acura does need to drop the price of the leases.

Also, if a salesman can't explain why the RL costs more the the TL or why a BMW lease is less than an Acura lease, then I must question is selling ability.

Tully44

Acura needs to drop the MSRP by a realistic $3,000. What money they lose (if they would lose) they will make up on the back end on service (i.e. parts). Averaging 1,200 car sales per month, Acura will continue to take a bath not only on sales but on mechanical/parts inventory items. They need to increase sales not only for the obvious reasons, but to maintain a steady supply of inventory for future service calls.

jhr3uva90

I agree that Acura should reduce the MSRP by $3K. The car is selling for about $44K anyway, so why not drop the MSRP?

I'm not sure if Acura cares about making anything up on the back end, and I don't think Honda corporate cares at all. Unlike the MDX and the TL, the RL is sold around the world with relatively few modifications. I guess Honda would be content if the RL/Legend has consistent global sales.

Acura initially projected 15000 RL's the first model year. The RL was never meant to be a huge seller. I just wish it would sell more units.

lindros2

I'd like to see a BMW 5-series or Audi A6 with all of the RL features at less than $575/month.

German manufacturers can - and DO - take advantage of brand prestige and charge inordinately high interest (money-factor) rates.

I've told BMW dealerships in NJ and Georgia to go f-ck themselves twice over a 10 year period due to high leases without justification.

jhr3uva90

lindros2 is my hero! Now if Acura sales people would do their homework and let customers know that the RL is a value. In fact, I think the problem is that potential customers are comparing the RL to the TL instead of comparing it to the real competition: Infiniti M, Lexus GS and others.

JMikeF

Every time I turn on the tube, there is that damn ad for the new Lexus 350. Very slick, very sexy, very convincing. Image-building. Why does my hand automatically reach for my wallet? Pure magic!

So, where is Acura? A print ad for the RL on the back of Popular Science? A local dealer radio ad that talks about RL's safety features? Please, wake me up when it's over!

jhr3uva90

I agree, that new Lexus ES 350 ad is sexy! The sad part is that Acura could have made a similar commercial for the RL two years ago! Does Acura really want to sell RL's or is it just a concession to the Honda folks in Japan? Sometimes I get the feeling that Acura would rather concentrate on SUVs.

CL6

Ha ha I don't know my products! That's pretty funny. Seriously though, the RL should be bigger, faster, more powerful, more luxurious than the TL. Even Chrysler is coming out with a stretched version of their 300C. In some ways the RL has more than the TL but is it but 14 grand worth? No, no, no. Well, at least by what the people I talk to say. Granted, the market for a 50k car is much smaller than that of a 35k car... but still many other companies do it. And where I work is very affluent (read BMW country) and those RLs sit like rocks. The prestige factor?

klister

Yeah, it may be the prestige factor. If you are in BMW country, that must be a major factor as the BMW is (at least at a comparable price) not larger, more powerful, or more luxurious than the RL. In fact, the RL has won virtually every comparison by automotive journalists which have included the two cars. Most do concede, however, that the BMW is more fun to drive. For most people though, the RL is the better car and less expensive.

The other factor may be the buying, service, and ownership experience. Though Acura and Honda automobiles are know for their dependability, the first year experience with the RL hasn't been stellar with mutliple returns to the dealer for many service updates. Those seem to have been corrected for 06. Dealer service departments also didn't seem ready or trained to deal with as sophisticated and new a vehicle as this. This resulted in a lot of customer frustration. Additionally, because Acura vehicles have been such great values, Acura dealers are used to customers coming in pre-sold and wanting the vehicles. Selling sophisticated technology such as SH-AWD, keyless ignition, superior voice recognition, and the technology package are a new experience only a few of the sales personnel were prepared to handle.

Lastly, the competition in this price segement is fierce with the new Infiniti M and the GS300/430. The RL is more than competitive but Lexus has a deservedly better image for service and ownership experience. The Infiniti is priced aggressively and has more sports oriented handling. BMW and Audi A6 are also excellent cars but more expensive and less reliable.

Bottom line -- the RL is an excellent car in a highly competitve niche. The market says it will sell at a lower price, but I'll bet Acura can't afford to sell it with the current content at a much lower price. So, Acura needs to find a way to articulate its advantages including better training for sales personnel if they cannot articulate why it is a better car (by at least a $10k) margin than the TL. As important, though is improving the ownership experience and taking care of the current customers who should be the best sales tool that Acura has.

This rant is really directed at Acura who, in my opinion, doesn't need a V8, a larger version, a decontented base version, etc but to get back to basics and prove this is a superior automobile, assure that it is reliable, improve the experience for the current customers, and continue to improve it as much as they did from 05 to 06. They may have to add some value -- air conditioned seats, back up camera -- to kick start a revitalization here or lower the price a little, but the basics are what will assure success in the long run. Just look at that Lexus premium for a less than comparable vehicle. Amen.

jhr3uva90

I agree with klister, except for one point: I think Acura could benefit from offering a V8 (or better yet, a V10). I think they should offer another sedan in addition to the RL that is full-sized with a V10 (or V8) engine standard. That same engine could be an option for the RL.

One problem I see with the RL is that prospective buyers are cross shopping it with the TL. BMW 5 Series buyers don't really cross-shop with the 3 Series. And Lexus GS customers don't seem to cross shop with the ES. If they did, they would probably wonder why the GS is more expensive than the slightly bigger ES.

klister

I wouldn't disagree that it would be nice if Acura had a larger sedan -- 745i or LS460 size -- with a V8 but that would take another 5 or 6 years to develop and I suspect that it is not high on the Honda priority list. With the trend in oil prices, I don't think that priority will change. I like the current size and could afford the other if I wanted vehicles that large.

So, why don't people cross shop the Lexus ES and the GS? They are similar size and similar power (at least in the 6 cylinder versions). Lexus has targeted them at different markets and convinced consumers and sales people that they are very different. The question is why can't Acura do that. The RL is a much more luxurious automobile than the TL and should be targeted at a different -- probably slightly older, more affluent, and technologically oriented demographic. From the ads, they are trying, but not as effectively as they need to be.

BTW is uva90 as in C'ville UVA? If so, then I am uva71 as in MBA type.

jhr3uva90

Hopefully, it won't take Honda that long to develop a larger engine, since they have already announced they will have a V10. Also, I think Honda/Acura needs a "real" flagship, even if nobody buys it (like the Infiniti M). At least that way, people will stop trying to compare the RL to cars like the Lexus LS, which is an unfair comparison.

Yes, I'm from Virginia, THE University!

hoofandclaw

I hope people don't compare the RL with the ES. The designers made the second gen RL much more masculine and the engineers beefed up the techs. The ES is a girl's cars -- cuter and sexier.

CL6

Maybe I am too close to the RL. I know this car too well to be unbiased about it. But in truth out of all the cars Acura offers the RL is the one with which I have the most issues. It is a good car I think but I just can't get behind the RL as much as with our other vehicles. I wish I could put my finger on it but when new RLs are selling for below invoice and there still aren't many takers there's got to be a reason. Maybe people still don't know about this car.

Main advantages over the TL:
~ SH-AWD
~ OnStar
~ XM Traffic
~ Aluminum construction
~ 'Keyless' ignition
~ Moving headlights
~ Tech Pkg option
~ Rear sunshade/rear door shades
~ Real wood dash
~ TSX-level Nav system
~ 3.5 litre vs. 3.2 litre V^

What else... really besides some highly technical stuff that you need an Excel spreadsheet to explain.

Ibn Rushd

GS and ES are entirely different in the sense of drive train as well. ES and GS all go on preference of drivetrain. I know people who chose the Es just because of the FWD, over the GS's RWD. (In Winter, it DOES matter, and the AWD GS was too expensive).

So, Either you pick up the GS with nothing, or get the FWD ES and add a bit of packages.


By the way, the RL does have ventialized (Heat and AC'd seats...) someone mentioned it doesn't..but it does...unless the 05's don't because my uncle's 06 does.

jhr3uva90

I have a question for CL6: in your recollection, has ANY Acura over $45K ever sold well?

Regarding the GS vs. ES, there are people who would chose a FWD over RWD. However, I wonder if many Lexus drivers know the difference? So, other than the drive train, what are the differences between the GS and ES that justifies the price difference?

JeffS

The US versions do not have it standard or as an option.

klister

A good start but what about:
Much better paint job
Better fit and finish
Quieter and more supple ride quality
More comfortable front seats
Much greater degree of customization and setting retention
SW that can be updated for almost all major functions
Remote diagnostics and satellite communications
etc
The Nav in the 06 is much improved from the 05 (at least in mine) and one of the best that I have seen from Honda.

I had three people in my 06 RL today who are your target demo and own respectively a Lexus, Jaquar, and BMW. They were very impressed with the RL, specially because we could get four sets of golf clubs and passengers in the car comfortably. However, the first question from all is "what is it". None were aware of the new RL. These are affluent, successful people who are not into cars. They would not be shopping for the TL at all. The potential buyer for the RL should not be the same one looking for at the TL.

A bright spot for you is the comment from the LS430 owner who said that Lexus is about to price him out of the market with the upcoming LS460. You should compare favorably to the GS if they move down.

dwboston

I agree - I owned a 2003 TL-S, drove a 2004 TL a few times as a loaner vehicle, and now own a 2005 RL. There's really no comparison between the TL's and the RL. The build quality and materials are an order of magnitude higher in the RL.

It's kind of funny how the dealers complain how hard it is to sell a $45k+ car when they sell tons of MDX's, which when loaded list in the high $40k range. Maybe they need to realize that their target demo for the RL is the husband of the soccer mom MDX driver.

jhr3uva90

I tend to get the same reaction that klister gets when people encounter my RL. Part of the problem is that Acura does not advertise the RL well. Sometimes is seems that Acura has some kind of vendetta against the RL because it was designed in Japan instead of California like the current TL and the upcoming MDX and RDX.

Also, part of the problem might be Acura's cutomers. People who buy Acura GENERALLY can't afford cars over $45K and don't have a lot of experience with them, so they have never compared the RL to other cars in that class. Instead, those customers compare the RL to what they know: the TL, which is not a good comparison. Also, bear in mind that according to an Acura exec, the TL is most likely to be cross shopped with the Honda Accord. People who are comparing a TL with an Accord might not have much experience with luxury cars and therefore think that the RL is overpriced simply because it costs more than the TL.

Mike_TX

The problem for me (and I'm in the market) is that the RL doesn't make enough of a statement for a car listing for $50k. I know you owners hate to hear this, but the car looks entirely too Honda Accord for its own good.

Added to that is the fact its styling makes it appear smaller than it is. In fact, I was a little surprised when I pulled specs on it and compared them to other contenders for my money. It turns out to be about exactly the size of an '06 Infiniti G35 (in terms of passenger volume, headroom, legroom, hiproom, etc.). That's still a bit smaller than I'd like, but still a bit larger than I thought, just looking at it. Maybe it's the rounded corners ... ?

But the upshot is that the car looks too much like an Accord trying to make the Big Time. I know it's not, but that's what a lot of people see it as. And as such, those people are a little taken aback when you tell them it's a $50,000 car. They don't necessarily mind paying that kind of money ... they just expect something more premium-looking for their dough. And, to be honest, I think that's a large part of the reason RL's are languishing on the lots unsold.

I mean, for 50 Large you expect to see a Bimmer or Merc or Jag roll up ... not something that too much resembles a Honda family hauler. That's painful, I know, but it's reality. Too many people never get past the initial impression to discover the car's deeper qualities, and they cetainly don't immediately whip out their checkbooks and say "Write 'er up!".

I suppose Acura can't do it, but if the car LISTED - as is - for no more than, say, $43,000, and you could get one discounted to, say, $40,000, I don't think there would be a sales issue. But in the meantime, it's kinda like the VW Phaeton - the steak was there, but there wasn't enough sizzle.

CL6

You and I know the paint finish is better, but trying to sell people on the hand sanding 'self chipping primer' is not a big hook. The fit and finish is better, but it should be. The thing about the RL at speed that annoys me is this 'whistling' from the engine. Almost futuristic in nature. The extra customization is not significantly different that the TL. I mean, it is a little more, but the MiD is so much harder to use than the TL's I know most people don't even want to get into it. The seats ARE better. I agree 100% with you.

I tried to hit the 'major' points that would be obvious to people. When you get into things like 'this tastes better' or 'this is smoother' you run into problems because not everybody sees things the same way.

Lexus, BMW, Rolls Royce... they advertise in the Robb Report. Yet despite the RL having had a great review in this magazine Acura never advertises there.

jhr3uva90

I think the current RL's base MSRP should be no higher than $47K, personally, since the car is actually selling for around $44K right now.

As far a looking like an Accord is concerned, the RL resembles the Accord, but so do a lot of Japanese sedans. In fact, if you take a Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Lexus ES, previous-generation Acura TL, and current Acura RL and take the badges off, a layperson would have a hard time telling the cars apart. Part of it is that Japanese go for subtle differences, while Americans generally don't go for subtle anything. But also, laypeople (the general car customer) knows BRANDS, not CARS. If take the BMW logo off their current cars, the only way a person would recognize them is because of the "Bangle trunk hump." The previous-generation 3 series looks like the current-generation Acura TL to some people.

The reality is that you can get the American consumer to buy anything if you hype up the brand properly. BMW learned this in the 1980's when they started pitching their cars to yuppies. Toyota executed well when they built up the Lexus brand in the 1990's. Conversely, GM is learning that hard way that it is VERY difficult to change brand perception. So yes, design is important, and Acura will probably continue to improve design as the California design center breaks off from Honda's. Engineering is also important, and a bigger engine will hopefully increase sales. But at the end of the day, it's all about brand. If the atheletes or rappers start driving a certain brand of car, then it will start to sell. That's how the Escalade saved Cadiallac from extinction.

Do you want to know the quickest way to double Acura RL sales overnight? Start calling it the Lexus RL.

jhr3uva90

CL6, I agree with you, Acura needs to advertise the RL more wisely. Not only do I wonder if Honda is all that focused on the auto market, but I wonder if Acura corporate even knows how to play the luxury car game. Not only should the RL be advertised in more upscale magazines, but they need to do some movie product placements. Remember the second "Matrix" movie? The good guys spent 20 minutes driving a Cadillac CTS while the bad guys chased them in an Escalade. Considering how high-tech the RL is, you'd think Acura would have the good sense to put it in a Sci-Fi movie. Sheesh!

Let's face it: the RL is simply not the car for most of America, especially the more low-tech portions of the country. Middle America is all about "bling," not reliablity, engineering, or gadgets.

CL6

The BMW has the distinctive trunk (which the RL kind of has now) but it has its distinctive grille as well. The RL is kind of a big Accord.

Check these out:



This does not help!

jhr3uva90

The RL might resemble the Accord, but the Lexus ES really IS a big Camry, yet it sells well. In fact, I believe the new ES is the reason why Acura TL sales decreased in May.

Perhaps Acura should stop making excuses? One excuse: the RL isn't much bigger than the cheaper TL. Well, the Lexus GS is actually smaller than the cheaper ES, yet both cars sell well. Another excuse: the Acura RL resembles the Accord. Well, the Lexus ES has always resembled the Camry upon which it is based. And the Lexus LS resembles the Toyota Avalon. And the Infiniti M resembles the Nissan Maxima. And the previous-generation TL resembled the previous-generation Accord. Yet all of these cars are strong sellers. Here's what Acura corporate can do to help. . .

1. Promote the car! Advertising the RL on the back of Sound & Vision magazine helps, but they really need some TV advertising. In addition, there should be Acura RL product placements. And if necessary, put the car in some music videos (only as a last resort, though).

2. Offer a FWD version of the RL and lower the base price. That way, TL owners won't immediately balk at the RL's $50K base price. Obviously TL drivers don't care about the advantages of SH-AWD (or any other drive layout, for that matter). That's why they drive TL's.

3. Long term: do something about the dealerships. For many people, especially those outside of major metro areas, there is a BIG difference between an Acura dealership and a Lexus dealership. For example, there should be no such thing as an "Acura/Pontiac" dealership. There should only be new Acura's under the roof. Period. And Acura corporate should give out SALESPERSON incentives, not just DEALER incentives. From what I understand, there really isn't much of an incentive for an individual salesperson to push the RL over the TL. Perhaps comissions should be proportional to the cost of the car? Also, something has to be done with the service departments. They are inconsistent from dealership to dealership. For example, some service departments give Acura customers a rental car, while others give customers an actual Acura. I'll be damned if I bring in my $50K RL and drive off with a Chevrolet. Lexus customers don't have to deal with that.

4. Finally, Acura/Honda should go "balls to the wall" and offer a full-size sedan with a V8 or V10 engine. At least that will keep people from trying to compare an Acura RL to a Mercedes S-class and then bitching that the car is too small. Also, perhaps the V8 (or V10) can be shared with the RL and MDX. In 1989, the Lexus LS, a full-sized sedan, put Lexus on the map. 17 years later, Acura sill hasn't responded with its own flagship. Then again, if Acura sales people in the dealerships can't sell a mid-sized car that is cheaper than its competition, who knows if they can sell a real luxury flagship?

klister

Actually the front view reminds me more of the MB CLK coupes than the Accord. The VTEC engines do seem to have a distinctive sound under acceleration which is not deeply resonant enough to make the engine sound gutsy. They should address that.

Does anyone know how the Legend is selling in Japan and how it is priced versus the competition. That is even a more competitive market than the US.

SodaLuvr

I think the largest problem with both Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura down the road is the downfall of their reliability and build quality. It is already beginning to become evident with the transmission fiasco, and occassionally, the increasing # of complaints regarding fit/finish.

GoHawks

Allow me to chime in as well. My RL is my third Acura ('93 Vigor & '01 TL), and the RL is vastly better than any Acura I've ever owned or driven. As many of you said, the interior dimensions of the RL are comparable to the GS, the RL has been consistenly ranked ahead of the GS300 AWD in most of the car mags, and yet the complaint against the RL is no V8 or it's too expensive. No such complaints against the GS. Now I understand that if someone wants a V8 in a GS they can get one, but the fact of the matter is that Acura has had an identity problem since the early '90s.

The American publis will not take you as a serious luxury car marque when you have cars in your showroom that range from a $20K RSX to a $90K+ NSX. Most of us understand the differences in these vehicles, but the general public who is image shopping doesn't get it.

The only time Acura has created a sales hit is by offering value. That was the case with the the early Integras and Legends, with the second gen TLs when there was a 3-month waiting list for the cars (pre-tranny issues), and to some extent the MDX.

The current TL is still not considered a true performance car because of it's driveline, but it offers a tremendous value over much of the competition. That's why it sells well, not because it's an Acura.

Just about every review I've read raves about the RL, but it still lags in sales. How can a car that does most things as well as it's competition, that's priced below it's competition not do well? Because it's anonymous.

I had someone come up to me the other day and compliment me on my new "Lexus". :lol: In the short month I've owned this vehicle, I received numerous compliments, and admiring glances. People notice this car, but they don't know what it is.

Making it cheaper might move a few more cars, but it will do little to improve Acura's image as a serious luxury marque. It might actually hurt it because it'll continue to be viewed as the Chevy of the luxury brands.

SodaLuvr

I personally believe that Acura made the right decision by removing the RSX from its line-up. The RSX was a good # of younger buyers that may have tarnished the brand's image.

By focusing on a more "mature" audience, I think they've made the right move toward gaining the respect as a serious luxury car brand.

Ibn Rushd

Legend is selling alright, not as great either, however it's basically the same competition, since Nissan and Toyota each have a car there as well.

I saw the omen tonight..and the guy drove a lexus GS...i've never wanted a Lexus so badly after this movie...seriously, EVER. Deffinetly, the Michelin tire commercials aren't good enough for the RL.

Put the RL in a movie, with a high speed chase, with a lot of turns, and put it against say, something where the RWD wouldn't be able to keep up with the SH-AWD system, as well as fast turns in and out of alleys..i can see it now...so sweet.


And despite the meanest of this next statement...

No AC'd seats in the RL for US? HAH, Sucks to be you.

Had to be said...let me gloat about something, we don't get very much here.

jhr3uva90

Good points, GoHawks, and welcome to the forum!

Hey Michael, are Toyota and Lexus really starting to have reliability problems? I didn't know that.

Brown Chaos, your product placement example reiterates what I've been saying for months! I think product placement can be more effective than a commercial, but Acura doesn't seem to get it.

2veloce

Time will tell who is right Honda or the consumer.



Honda has always marched to a different drummer and has been successful.



Sure I would like to see more options and flexibility with pricing. But, flexibility will cost more – that has been proven time and time again within the manufacturing and distribution channels.



Who knows? Maybe the RL is filling excess production capacity in Japan and Honda is very happy about that.