06 RL vs 06-07 TL and IS 250-350
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06 RL vs 06-07 TL and IS 250-350
Longtime Honda/Acura owner(currently 90 Legend(180K mi) and 03 TL), but love Lexus service(have LX450) and build quaility.
Getting close to pulling the trigger on either 06 or 07 TL or 06 IS250-350. So was weighing value added as I moved up the pricepoint from $32k(06TL) to maybe $38K on the 07TL. The IS can be done within that range, except for the IS350 getting into the $40K range. So I'm all nice and happy with my shopping options, when I stumble across a 06 RL at the dealer at $40-41K. Looked at 07RL specs and realized this $41K was looking like a great price and all of a sudden I'm having to compare it to the 07TL or IS 250/350.
So, is the $40K RL that great a deal. The IS is smaller, but the power and Lexus build/service quality is real appealing...and probably resale for that matter.
FWIW, I'm married, no kids, 6"3"/225lbs and wife uses the 03TL. I'm old enough to appreciate power, but appreciate quality more. Still coming to terms with the fact that the $30K I paid for my Legend in 1990 would suggest I would pay $60K for similar quality in a car today...just proves I'm getting old a cheap(thoughtful). ;-)
Thanks..
rpm/San Antonio
Getting close to pulling the trigger on either 06 or 07 TL or 06 IS250-350. So was weighing value added as I moved up the pricepoint from $32k(06TL) to maybe $38K on the 07TL. The IS can be done within that range, except for the IS350 getting into the $40K range. So I'm all nice and happy with my shopping options, when I stumble across a 06 RL at the dealer at $40-41K. Looked at 07RL specs and realized this $41K was looking like a great price and all of a sudden I'm having to compare it to the 07TL or IS 250/350.
So, is the $40K RL that great a deal. The IS is smaller, but the power and Lexus build/service quality is real appealing...and probably resale for that matter.
FWIW, I'm married, no kids, 6"3"/225lbs and wife uses the 03TL. I'm old enough to appreciate power, but appreciate quality more. Still coming to terms with the fact that the $30K I paid for my Legend in 1990 would suggest I would pay $60K for similar quality in a car today...just proves I'm getting old a cheap(thoughtful). ;-)
Thanks..
rpm/San Antonio
#2
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by rpmjr
Longtime Honda/Acura owner(currently 90 Legend(180K mi) and 03 TL), but love Lexus service(have LX450) and build quaility.
Getting close to pulling the trigger on either 06 or 07 TL or 06 IS250-350. So was weighing value added as I moved up the pricepoint from $32k(06TL) to maybe $38K on the 07TL. The IS can be done within that range, except for the IS350 getting into the $40K range. So I'm all nice and happy with my shopping options, when I stumble across a 06 RL at the dealer at $40-41K. Looked at 07RL specs and realized this $41K was looking like a great price and all of a sudden I'm having to compare it to the 07TL or IS 250/350.
So, is the $40K RL that great a deal. The IS is smaller, but the power and Lexus build/service quality is real appealing...and probably resale for that matter.
FWIW, I'm married, no kids, 6"3"/225lbs and wife uses the 03TL. I'm old enough to appreciate power, but appreciate quality more. Still coming to terms with the fact that the $30K I paid for my Legend in 1990 would suggest I would pay $60K for similar quality in a car today...just proves I'm getting old a cheap(thoughtful). ;-)
Thanks..
rpm/San Antonio
Getting close to pulling the trigger on either 06 or 07 TL or 06 IS250-350. So was weighing value added as I moved up the pricepoint from $32k(06TL) to maybe $38K on the 07TL. The IS can be done within that range, except for the IS350 getting into the $40K range. So I'm all nice and happy with my shopping options, when I stumble across a 06 RL at the dealer at $40-41K. Looked at 07RL specs and realized this $41K was looking like a great price and all of a sudden I'm having to compare it to the 07TL or IS 250/350.
So, is the $40K RL that great a deal. The IS is smaller, but the power and Lexus build/service quality is real appealing...and probably resale for that matter.
FWIW, I'm married, no kids, 6"3"/225lbs and wife uses the 03TL. I'm old enough to appreciate power, but appreciate quality more. Still coming to terms with the fact that the $30K I paid for my Legend in 1990 would suggest I would pay $60K for similar quality in a car today...just proves I'm getting old a cheap(thoughtful). ;-)
Thanks..
rpm/San Antonio
I have driven both Is 250 and 350 and own a RL. As you mentioned the IS is smaller and in MO the RL is more comfortable. That said they are two different cars. If you have not test driven an RL,then you need to. I can tell you the navi and audio system is much better in the RL. I prefer the interior in the RL over the IS. It really depends on what you are looking for. IMO there is not better Value the the 06RL at 40K. I have test driven everycar in its class and I have found nothing to make me switch.
#3
If youre more into luxury and the better things in life, you'll like the RL. If you want something more sporty, then the IS350 is for you. The IS250 is a waste of time and effort by Lexus (imo) and was poorly executed. Great idea mating AWD and a 6sp manual gear box, but they really dropped the ball when they selected the wrong motor for this combo.
The TL is a great car and my sister has an 05, but it's a total rattle/squeak box. Which I believe may dissapoint you since youre more into build quality. Remember, the TL is made in America, not Japan.
The TL is a great car and my sister has an 05, but it's a total rattle/squeak box. Which I believe may dissapoint you since youre more into build quality. Remember, the TL is made in America, not Japan.
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I like the new IS but IMO the RL is the better overall car. The interior of the IS just isnt there with the RL and it is too small for a car that pretty much costs the same when taking into account the big discounts RLs sell at.
#5
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
I initially started my shopping looking at the IS. As many said, the IS is a great car, and I still appreciate them on the road. As a matter of fact, I think they also did a nice job with the new ES as well, but the ES is more about luxury and way less about sport. That said, I'm sure it will be a huge success.
Back to the IS, I shied away when I saw the IS in person. I'm 6ft tall and I felt a bit cramped and unlike you I do have kids that will occasionally ride in the back, and the IS had less room than my (at the time) '01 TL.
I then started looking that the GS300 AWD. I REALLY like the exterior styling of that car. Still do today slightly more than the RL. I then went and looked at the RL and I fell in love with the interior. The seats are amazing and as others have mentioned, the NAV and stereo are amazing (although the TL also has DVD audio). Add at the current price of admission for the RL and it's an incredible value.
Lexus wasn't dealing much on the GS and I think the GS AWD was around $50K at the time. The argument was further tilted towards the RL when I took into consideration the following.
AWD - The RL has a much more sophisticated system
Nav - The GS had the previous Gen IV nav that I have in my 2004 Land Cruiser. THe Gen IV system is so far behind the system in the RL it's not even funny. Voice recognition is worthless and it doesn't come with Navtraffic
Currently, Lexus might be dealing on the GS300s with the GS350 set to come out in '07 and I believe the Navigation has been upgraded and it's supposed to be comparable to the current system in the RL.
Now to the TL. I've never owne
Back to the IS, I shied away when I saw the IS in person. I'm 6ft tall and I felt a bit cramped and unlike you I do have kids that will occasionally ride in the back, and the IS had less room than my (at the time) '01 TL.
I then started looking that the GS300 AWD. I REALLY like the exterior styling of that car. Still do today slightly more than the RL. I then went and looked at the RL and I fell in love with the interior. The seats are amazing and as others have mentioned, the NAV and stereo are amazing (although the TL also has DVD audio). Add at the current price of admission for the RL and it's an incredible value.
Lexus wasn't dealing much on the GS and I think the GS AWD was around $50K at the time. The argument was further tilted towards the RL when I took into consideration the following.
AWD - The RL has a much more sophisticated system
Nav - The GS had the previous Gen IV nav that I have in my 2004 Land Cruiser. THe Gen IV system is so far behind the system in the RL it's not even funny. Voice recognition is worthless and it doesn't come with Navtraffic
Currently, Lexus might be dealing on the GS300s with the GS350 set to come out in '07 and I believe the Navigation has been upgraded and it's supposed to be comparable to the current system in the RL.
Now to the TL. I've never owne
#6
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
I initially started my shopping looking at the IS. As many said, the IS is a great car, and I still appreciate them on the road. As a matter of fact, I think they also did a nice job with the new ES as well, but the ES is more about luxury and way less about sport. That said, I'm sure it will be a huge success.
Back to the IS, I shied away when I saw the IS in person. I'm 6ft tall and I felt a bit cramped and unlike you I do have kids that will occasionally ride in the back, and the IS had less room than my (at the time) '01 TL.
I then started looking that the GS300 AWD. I REALLY like the exterior styling of that car. Still do today slightly more than the RL. I then went and looked at the RL and I fell in love with the interior. The seats are amazing and as others have mentioned, the NAV and stereo are amazing (although the TL also has DVD audio). Add at the current price of admission for the RL and it's an incredible value.
Lexus wasn't dealing much on the GS and I think the GS AWD was around $50K at the time. The argument was further tilted towards the RL when I took into consideration the following.
AWD - The RL has a much more sophisticated system
Nav - The GS had the previous Gen IV nav that I have in my 2004 Land Cruiser. THe Gen IV system is so far behind the system in the RL it's not even funny. Voice recognition is worthless and it doesn't come with Navtraffic
HF LInk - The bluetooth system in the LX doesn't allow for voice dial
Currently, Lexus might be dealing on the GS300s with the GS350 set to come out in '07 and I believe the Navigation has been upgraded and it's supposed to be comparable to the current system in the RL.
Now to the TL. It's a great value and despite the complaints about some rattles (had a few in my '01) it's popularity speaks to the value it presents and customer satisfaction. Torque steer seems to be a common complaint, but I take that whole FWD/RWD arguement with a grain of salt. Yes RWD is preferable for a performance car, but most people are not driving their cars to such extremes that it would be a significant and noticeable factor. So yes, the TL may not ever be on par with a BMW 3-Series because of the platform differences, but I would argue that most 3-Series drivers aren't entering on/off ramps in a 4-wheel drift
. The fact that the TL is selling so well proves that point. It provides good performance in a sporty design (although it never "grabbed" me) at a good price. A recipe that has worked for the TL ever since the '99 redesign when they had 3-month waiting lists.
Now to the RL. I've had mine for close to 3 months now. While Acura claims that it has the most powerful engine Acura has ever put in a passenger car, it may not always "feel" that fast, which is understandable since that engine is driving four wheels. It's no slouch, Sub 7 second 0-60 times can be had, and it's a wonderful highway cruiser. We were over at friends for dinner last night and when we were leaving my wife wanted to drive home (I drive the RL mostly). She commented on how solid and "good" the car felt. It's hard to explain, just drive it.
The Navtraffic really works, along with the voice recognition and other toys. The car corners and handles surprisingly well for such a big heavy car. Again go out and drive one.
Now to the RL price. If the rumors are true regarding what Acura is going to do with the '07 RL, if you're considering getting one, I'd get one now.
Rumor has it that Acura will introduce a "base" Rl that doesn't have Nav, wood and the Adaptive lights, pricing it around the same price as what you can get a loaded (non-tech) RL today. Although I'm still not sure how this is going to help RL sales.
That said, I think the RL was a comparable car to the GS 300 AWD at the sticker price. Given the current prices, it's a steal.
Sorry for getting so verbose. Good luck!
Back to the IS, I shied away when I saw the IS in person. I'm 6ft tall and I felt a bit cramped and unlike you I do have kids that will occasionally ride in the back, and the IS had less room than my (at the time) '01 TL.
I then started looking that the GS300 AWD. I REALLY like the exterior styling of that car. Still do today slightly more than the RL. I then went and looked at the RL and I fell in love with the interior. The seats are amazing and as others have mentioned, the NAV and stereo are amazing (although the TL also has DVD audio). Add at the current price of admission for the RL and it's an incredible value.
Lexus wasn't dealing much on the GS and I think the GS AWD was around $50K at the time. The argument was further tilted towards the RL when I took into consideration the following.
AWD - The RL has a much more sophisticated system
Nav - The GS had the previous Gen IV nav that I have in my 2004 Land Cruiser. THe Gen IV system is so far behind the system in the RL it's not even funny. Voice recognition is worthless and it doesn't come with Navtraffic
HF LInk - The bluetooth system in the LX doesn't allow for voice dial
Currently, Lexus might be dealing on the GS300s with the GS350 set to come out in '07 and I believe the Navigation has been upgraded and it's supposed to be comparable to the current system in the RL.
Now to the TL. It's a great value and despite the complaints about some rattles (had a few in my '01) it's popularity speaks to the value it presents and customer satisfaction. Torque steer seems to be a common complaint, but I take that whole FWD/RWD arguement with a grain of salt. Yes RWD is preferable for a performance car, but most people are not driving their cars to such extremes that it would be a significant and noticeable factor. So yes, the TL may not ever be on par with a BMW 3-Series because of the platform differences, but I would argue that most 3-Series drivers aren't entering on/off ramps in a 4-wheel drift
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Now to the RL. I've had mine for close to 3 months now. While Acura claims that it has the most powerful engine Acura has ever put in a passenger car, it may not always "feel" that fast, which is understandable since that engine is driving four wheels. It's no slouch, Sub 7 second 0-60 times can be had, and it's a wonderful highway cruiser. We were over at friends for dinner last night and when we were leaving my wife wanted to drive home (I drive the RL mostly). She commented on how solid and "good" the car felt. It's hard to explain, just drive it.
The Navtraffic really works, along with the voice recognition and other toys. The car corners and handles surprisingly well for such a big heavy car. Again go out and drive one.
Now to the RL price. If the rumors are true regarding what Acura is going to do with the '07 RL, if you're considering getting one, I'd get one now.
Rumor has it that Acura will introduce a "base" Rl that doesn't have Nav, wood and the Adaptive lights, pricing it around the same price as what you can get a loaded (non-tech) RL today. Although I'm still not sure how this is going to help RL sales.
That said, I think the RL was a comparable car to the GS 300 AWD at the sticker price. Given the current prices, it's a steal.
Sorry for getting so verbose. Good luck!
#7
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by rpmjr
Longtime Honda/Acura owner(currently 90 Legend(180K mi) and 03 TL), but love Lexus service(have LX450) and build quaility.
Getting close to pulling the trigger on either 06 or 07 TL or 06 IS250-350. So was weighing value added as I moved up the pricepoint from $32k(06TL) to maybe $38K on the 07TL. The IS can be done within that range, except for the IS350 getting into the $40K range. So I'm all nice and happy with my shopping options, when I stumble across a 06 RL at the dealer at $40-41K. Looked at 07RL specs and realized this $41K was looking like a great price and all of a sudden I'm having to compare it to the 07TL or IS 250/350.
So, is the $40K RL that great a deal. The IS is smaller, but the power and Lexus build/service quality is real appealing...and probably resale for that matter.
FWIW, I'm married, no kids, 6"3"/225lbs and wife uses the 03TL. I'm old enough to appreciate power, but appreciate quality more. Still coming to terms with the fact that the $30K I paid for my Legend in 1990 would suggest I would pay $60K for similar quality in a car today...just proves I'm getting old a cheap(thoughtful). ;-)
Thanks..
rpm/San Antonio
Getting close to pulling the trigger on either 06 or 07 TL or 06 IS250-350. So was weighing value added as I moved up the pricepoint from $32k(06TL) to maybe $38K on the 07TL. The IS can be done within that range, except for the IS350 getting into the $40K range. So I'm all nice and happy with my shopping options, when I stumble across a 06 RL at the dealer at $40-41K. Looked at 07RL specs and realized this $41K was looking like a great price and all of a sudden I'm having to compare it to the 07TL or IS 250/350.
So, is the $40K RL that great a deal. The IS is smaller, but the power and Lexus build/service quality is real appealing...and probably resale for that matter.
FWIW, I'm married, no kids, 6"3"/225lbs and wife uses the 03TL. I'm old enough to appreciate power, but appreciate quality more. Still coming to terms with the fact that the $30K I paid for my Legend in 1990 would suggest I would pay $60K for similar quality in a car today...just proves I'm getting old a cheap(thoughtful). ;-)
Thanks..
rpm/San Antonio
I have driven both Is 250 and 350 and own a RL. As you mentioned the IS is smaller and in MO the RL is more comfortable. That said they are two different cars. If you have not test driven an RL,then you need to. I can tell you the navi and audio system is much better in the RL. I prefer the interior in the RL over the IS. It really depends on what you are looking for. IMO there is not better Value the the 06RL at 40K. I have test driven everycar in its class and I have found nothing to make me switch.
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#8
AcurAdmirer
I currently own an '06 IS350 and an '06 TL. And I seriously considered an RL before getting the TL.
They are all very different cars in lots of ways. The IS350 is a screamer, but it IS smallish inside (mainly in the back seat area), and it has a pretty rigid ride. Drive it on bumpy roads before you make your final decison.
The TL turned out to be a good compromise for me, since it is fairly sporty, has pretty good acceleration and is much roomier than the IS inside. It has good Nav and voice recognition (although less comprehensive than the IS or the RL).
The RL just struck me as uninspiring, to be honest. It does everything well, it just didn't get my juices flowing. I guess the main thing is the somewhat anemic powerplant, but I was also disappointed to see it doesn't have touchscreen Nav. Yes, it's an excellent Nav system, but having to enter everything by voice command or by turning that big controller wheel is a drag. I can tap info into my IS's or my TL's screen 3 times as fast as I can say everything, waiting for the voice prompts after each entry.
The ride quality in the TL is close to the RL's IMO, albeit a little more sporting (which I prefer). Performance-wise, it beats the RL hands-down. Gas mileage is better than the RL's, as well. The TL's Nav screen resolution is a little lower than the RL's, but again, I prefer it due to the touchscreen entry.
The IS's Nav, BTW, is better IMO than the RL's. It's Lexus' Gen V Nav, and it has some really cool features (like touch anywhere on the screen and hold it and the map will scroll; touch a spot and you can make that your destination with one "click"; it has a freeway mode that lists every upcoming exit, the distance to it and amenities available there; etc., etc.) And of course, you can use voice recognition to ask for nearby Chinese food, rest areas, gas stations, and all that stuff.
You can get killer deals right now on '06 TL's and RL's. The RL will still set you back close to $10,000 more than a TL with Nav, and frankly, I don't see that it's worth it. You can get an '06 IS350 for about $38,000 (still $5,000 more than the TL), and while you'll get a well-built car that runs like stink, it will be smallish and will have a choppy ride.
The best overall compromise (if you like compromises) is probably the TL. Good looks, good performance, good gas mileage, roomy and comfortable, and best price of all three. To be brutally honest - if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't buy the IS ... But that's just me.
They are all very different cars in lots of ways. The IS350 is a screamer, but it IS smallish inside (mainly in the back seat area), and it has a pretty rigid ride. Drive it on bumpy roads before you make your final decison.
The TL turned out to be a good compromise for me, since it is fairly sporty, has pretty good acceleration and is much roomier than the IS inside. It has good Nav and voice recognition (although less comprehensive than the IS or the RL).
The RL just struck me as uninspiring, to be honest. It does everything well, it just didn't get my juices flowing. I guess the main thing is the somewhat anemic powerplant, but I was also disappointed to see it doesn't have touchscreen Nav. Yes, it's an excellent Nav system, but having to enter everything by voice command or by turning that big controller wheel is a drag. I can tap info into my IS's or my TL's screen 3 times as fast as I can say everything, waiting for the voice prompts after each entry.
The ride quality in the TL is close to the RL's IMO, albeit a little more sporting (which I prefer). Performance-wise, it beats the RL hands-down. Gas mileage is better than the RL's, as well. The TL's Nav screen resolution is a little lower than the RL's, but again, I prefer it due to the touchscreen entry.
The IS's Nav, BTW, is better IMO than the RL's. It's Lexus' Gen V Nav, and it has some really cool features (like touch anywhere on the screen and hold it and the map will scroll; touch a spot and you can make that your destination with one "click"; it has a freeway mode that lists every upcoming exit, the distance to it and amenities available there; etc., etc.) And of course, you can use voice recognition to ask for nearby Chinese food, rest areas, gas stations, and all that stuff.
You can get killer deals right now on '06 TL's and RL's. The RL will still set you back close to $10,000 more than a TL with Nav, and frankly, I don't see that it's worth it. You can get an '06 IS350 for about $38,000 (still $5,000 more than the TL), and while you'll get a well-built car that runs like stink, it will be smallish and will have a choppy ride.
The best overall compromise (if you like compromises) is probably the TL. Good looks, good performance, good gas mileage, roomy and comfortable, and best price of all three. To be brutally honest - if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't buy the IS ... But that's just me.
#9
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Originally Posted by Mike_TX
The best overall compromise (if you like compromises) is probably the TL. Good looks, good performance, good gas mileage, roomy and comfortable, and best price of all three. To be brutally honest - if I had it to do over again, I wouldn't buy the IS ... But that's just me.
Thx Mike, this is where I was before I saw the new RL price and your logic reflects why I was on the edge to get the TL...but build quality is still the wild card. But for $8K maybe I can live with it. ;-)
Guess I need to go drive the RL, I know I loved the TL when I drove it last year.
Cheers and thanks everyone....additional comments always welcome.
rpm/San Antonio
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Originally Posted by rpmjr
Longtime Honda/Acura owner(currently 90 Legend(180K mi) and 03 TL), but love Lexus service(have LX450) and build quaility.
Getting close to pulling the trigger on either 06 or 07 TL or 06 IS250-350. So was weighing value added as I moved up the pricepoint from $32k(06TL) to maybe $38K on the 07TL. The IS can be done within that range, except for the IS350 getting into the $40K range. So I'm all nice and happy with my shopping options, when I stumble across a 06 RL at the dealer at $40-41K. Looked at 07RL specs and realized this $41K was looking like a great price and all of a sudden I'm having to compare it to the 07TL or IS 250/350.
So, is the $40K RL that great a deal. The IS is smaller, but the power and Lexus build/service quality is real appealing...and probably resale for that matter.
FWIW, I'm married, no kids, 6"3"/225lbs and wife uses the 03TL. I'm old enough to appreciate power, but appreciate quality more. Still coming to terms with the fact that the $30K I paid for my Legend in 1990 would suggest I would pay $60K for similar quality in a car today...just proves I'm getting old a cheap(thoughtful). ;-)
Thanks..
rpm/San Antonio
Getting close to pulling the trigger on either 06 or 07 TL or 06 IS250-350. So was weighing value added as I moved up the pricepoint from $32k(06TL) to maybe $38K on the 07TL. The IS can be done within that range, except for the IS350 getting into the $40K range. So I'm all nice and happy with my shopping options, when I stumble across a 06 RL at the dealer at $40-41K. Looked at 07RL specs and realized this $41K was looking like a great price and all of a sudden I'm having to compare it to the 07TL or IS 250/350.
So, is the $40K RL that great a deal. The IS is smaller, but the power and Lexus build/service quality is real appealing...and probably resale for that matter.
FWIW, I'm married, no kids, 6"3"/225lbs and wife uses the 03TL. I'm old enough to appreciate power, but appreciate quality more. Still coming to terms with the fact that the $30K I paid for my Legend in 1990 would suggest I would pay $60K for similar quality in a car today...just proves I'm getting old a cheap(thoughtful). ;-)
Thanks..
rpm/San Antonio
If you will buy the car and drive it 'til it drives no more, buy what YOU want but I would leab towards a Lexus** (resale value does not apply).
If you plan on owning the car for a few years (4-7 years), buy a Lexus. The resale value will far exceed an Acura's and have a better chance of no reliability issues once the standard warranty expires. **The elecronics on a Lexus are not as complicated then on an Acura. Mechanically, you'll have no worries with either manufacturer.
If you will lease the car, get the RL. You will not find a better value (a better lease, yes. But not a better value).
#11
CLS 6MT Navi
With the new 07 TL Type S having the 3.5L engine and the new decontented base 07 RL, these cars pricing and features are closer than in 06. I haven't driven an RL but I really prefer the TL styling over the RL. and the 6speed option on the TL would be a serious motivator, (if they offer it on the 3.5L TL), still under debate, til Sept1.
The TL has been a hot seller for a reason, satisfies a lot of peoples wants in a sedan. I think the IS is too small for the price.
The TL has been a hot seller for a reason, satisfies a lot of peoples wants in a sedan. I think the IS is too small for the price.
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toyota quality problems: lexus too?
from nytimes
August 5, 2006
Repairing Some Dents in an Image
By MICHELINE MAYNARD and MARTIN FACKLER
The news is something no car owner wants to hear. Power steering on their hard-to-get hybrid could fail. Tires on their small pickups could bulge and possibly burst. Air bags may not inflate during a crash.
These recalls are the type that have long bedeviled American carmakers, but this time it was Toyota of Japan, long known as the crème de la crème in quality.
Just as Toyota appears poised to pass General Motors to become the world’s largest automaker, it has a growing problem with recalls that is sullying its carefully honed image.
In the United States, Toyota’s largest market, the number of vehicles recalled soared to 2.2 million last year. That was double the number of vehicles recalled in 2004, and more than 10 times the 200,000 cars it recalled in 2003, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
In Japan, the number of recalled vehicles has jumped 41-fold since 2001, to 1.9 million last year. And because many of the recalls are for vehicles that are more than 10 years old, analysts fear that another wave of bad quality news may be in store.
The situation has alarmed Toyota’s top executives and angered the Japanese government. It ordered Toyota to explain itself, which the company did in a report delivered Thursday, accompanied by the latest in a series of apologies. In it, the company promised to create a new computer database to obtain information more quickly from dealers on repairs and complaints. The police in Japan said three Toyota officials were under criminal investigation on suspicion that they concealed vehicle defects over eight years.
Inside Toyota, the spate of recalls and the criminal investigation has caused a flurry of high-level efforts to diagnose and fix the problems, which have affected its Prius hybrid, the gold standard among fuel-efficient vehicles; the Tacoma pickup; and cars in its Lexus luxury lineup.
Quality problems can befall any company, whether based in Detroit, Europe or elsewhere. This week, in fact, Ford expanded a recall of its vans, sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks because of problems with cruise control systems that were prone to catching fire.
For now, Toyota’s quality issues do not seem to be damping its operations either in Japan, where it is the biggest automaker, or the United States, where Toyota passed Ford in July to rank as the No. 2 company in terms of auto sales. Nor is it affecting Toyota’s net income, which climbed 39.2 percent during the second-quarter, to $3.2 billion, the company said yesterday. [Page C4.]
But executives know they cannot let the situation fester, because it ultimately threatens Toyota’s ability to grow. If they fail to get their arms around the problem, they will have to pull back on the company’s expansion plans, which are set to include more assembly and engine plants for the United States, as well as factories elsewhere.
At Toyota’s annual executive meeting in June, its departing chairman, Hiroshi Okuda; the new chairman, Fujio Cho; and its chief executive, Katsuaki Watanabe, all vowed to managers that the quality issue would be addressed, according to a senior Toyota executive who attended the meeting.
“The quality issue is a big concern. They’re embarrassed about it,” said the executive, who insisted on anonymity because the meeting was private.
“You think about Toyota, and quality is in our DNA,” he continued. “We are concerned about looking like the rest of the pack. The market is forgiving because of our long reputation, but how long will they be forgiving?”
Interviews with car owners and dealers show they have some latitude.
Bruce Wachtell, 71, bought a 2006 Prius in March after years of driving a Toyota Tacoma pickup without any problems.
“It’s never seen a dealer,” he said of the truck.
Mr. Wachtell, a retired ship’s radio officer living in Stinson Beach, Calif., began buying foreign cars after growing frustrated with the quality of American-made vehicles. That sentiment is confirmed, he said, whenever he peruses repair records for various brands in Consumer Reports, and he has not lost any confidence in Toyota because of the recent recalls.
“I think recalls are just simply a function of the fact that no design is perfect,” he said.
Mr. Wachtell called his dealership after discovering recall notices that included the 2006 Prius on the Internet, but he was told his vehicle was not among those affected. Both the Tacoma and the Prius, however, are among the vehicles in Toyota’s recent recalls.
At Bredemann Toyota in Park Ridge, Ill., Don Ziemke, the general sales manager, said only a few shoppers had asked about the implications of the recalls. Other dealers said they had prepared their employees to answer such questions, but that no one had even brought up the topic.
“Toyota’s longevity and reliability has always been a strong suit,” Mr. Ziemke said. “That kind of takes a hit when there are recalls out there.”
Still, he said, “It’s against the grain as far as what Toyota has provided its dealer body and customers in the past.”
The primary reason for the recalls is Toyota’s overloaded engineering staff, say company executives and industry analysts.
Despite its global expansion during the 1990’s, it failed to hire enough engineers to keep up with production increases.
And it kept most of its development in Japan, even though it built research and development centers in places like Ann Arbor, Mich., and Brussels. At the same time, a new Japanese law required companies to pay for overtime for white-collar workers, raising the costs incurred by engineers, whose long hours on the job were the stuff of industry legend.
Analysts say that all this may have contributed to a number of errors introduced during vehicle development. There have been fewer problems on the assembly line, however, which has been a more common cause of recent recalls at other carmakers like Nissan.
Another issue is that Toyota, like other global auto companies, has farmed out the development of key components to its suppliers, both companies with which it has been doing business for years, like Denso of Japan, and newer ones, like the Delphi Corporation, the biggest American parts maker.
The damage has been slow to emerge — indeed, most recent recalls involve cars produced in the 1990’s. But that means potential problems from hectic growth years in the early 2000’s have yet to appear, and analysts warn that Toyota’s quality woes may only become worse before they get better.
“I’m more concerned about the future,” said Kunihiko Shiohara, an auto analyst for Goldman Sachs in Tokyo. “A fundamental turnaround in quality levels will take at least four years.”
It also does not help that some rivals appear to be gaining quality ground on Toyota, whose Toyota-brand cars and Lexus line of luxury cars had long topped quality rankings. It still dominated the recommended list from Consumer Reports this year. But in June, a survey of new-vehicle quality by J. D. Power & Associates, a marketing research company, ranked the German luxury carmaker Porsche in the top spot, and with Hyundai of South Korea in second place, ahead of Toyota at No. 3.
To be sure, rising recall numbers are not limited to Toyota. A reason that recalls have gone up is that automakers are using an increasing number of common parts across a number of car models, which saves money, but also means that flaws affect larger numbers of vehicles.
Another is the increasing complexity of vehicles, as companies rely more heavily on electronics and computerized features that used to be mechanical. “It’s not fair to single out Toyota for many problems,” said Takaki Nakanishi, an auto industry analyst with J. P. Morgan in Tokyo.
Still, the rapid rise in recalls at Toyota stands out in comparison with other carmakers. In Japan, where Toyota is the largest auto company, with about 39 percent of the market, its recalls quadrupled over the last four years, to 1.9 million in 2005. That compares with 199,000 at No. 2 Nissan and 205,000 at Honda in 2005, according to the transportation ministry.
In Toyota’s case, 68 percent of its recent recalls can be blamed on design flaws, according to Goldman Sachs. They include rubber parts not made thick enough to withstand engine heat and joints too weak to hold together. Of Toyota’s recalls in 2004, 68 percent were because of design problems, Goldman Sachs said.
Analysts say Toyota’s problems stem from the mid-1990’s, when Mr. Okuda, who was president, began expanding its global production. Toyota did not hire enough engineers to keep up with production increases because it was trying to meet tough self-imposed cost-cutting targets, analysts said.
Understaffed design centers have also forced Toyota to rely on large parts makers to help design major components “Toyota’s resources have been stretched quite a bit by the big increases in volume,” said Andrew Phillips, an analyst at Nikko Citigroup in Tokyo. “What’s remarkable is that most the recalls now predate the really big ramp-up.”
That came after 2000, when Toyota’s annual vehicle sales rose to the almost 8.85 million expected this year, from about 6 million.
But Toyota has increased the hiring of new engineers, bringing on 979 last year, compared with 310 in 2001. A company spokesman, Paul Nolasco, said Toyota planned to hire at least another 850 this year.
In a departure from corporate tradition that stressed spending a career at a single company, Toyota wants 200 of its new hires to be experienced engineers hired in midcareer from elsewhere.
In June, Toyota assigned a second executive vice president to its quality control division and created a new senior managing director spot dedicated to improving quality.
“Everyone is taking this very seriously,” said a top-ranking executive in Toyota’s North American operations who spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation. The stakes are high, he added: “If we can’t lick it, we will have to slow down” — a decision Toyota hopes it does not have to make.
Nick Bunkley contributed reporting for this article.
August 5, 2006
Repairing Some Dents in an Image
By MICHELINE MAYNARD and MARTIN FACKLER
The news is something no car owner wants to hear. Power steering on their hard-to-get hybrid could fail. Tires on their small pickups could bulge and possibly burst. Air bags may not inflate during a crash.
These recalls are the type that have long bedeviled American carmakers, but this time it was Toyota of Japan, long known as the crème de la crème in quality.
Just as Toyota appears poised to pass General Motors to become the world’s largest automaker, it has a growing problem with recalls that is sullying its carefully honed image.
In the United States, Toyota’s largest market, the number of vehicles recalled soared to 2.2 million last year. That was double the number of vehicles recalled in 2004, and more than 10 times the 200,000 cars it recalled in 2003, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
In Japan, the number of recalled vehicles has jumped 41-fold since 2001, to 1.9 million last year. And because many of the recalls are for vehicles that are more than 10 years old, analysts fear that another wave of bad quality news may be in store.
The situation has alarmed Toyota’s top executives and angered the Japanese government. It ordered Toyota to explain itself, which the company did in a report delivered Thursday, accompanied by the latest in a series of apologies. In it, the company promised to create a new computer database to obtain information more quickly from dealers on repairs and complaints. The police in Japan said three Toyota officials were under criminal investigation on suspicion that they concealed vehicle defects over eight years.
Inside Toyota, the spate of recalls and the criminal investigation has caused a flurry of high-level efforts to diagnose and fix the problems, which have affected its Prius hybrid, the gold standard among fuel-efficient vehicles; the Tacoma pickup; and cars in its Lexus luxury lineup.
Quality problems can befall any company, whether based in Detroit, Europe or elsewhere. This week, in fact, Ford expanded a recall of its vans, sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks because of problems with cruise control systems that were prone to catching fire.
For now, Toyota’s quality issues do not seem to be damping its operations either in Japan, where it is the biggest automaker, or the United States, where Toyota passed Ford in July to rank as the No. 2 company in terms of auto sales. Nor is it affecting Toyota’s net income, which climbed 39.2 percent during the second-quarter, to $3.2 billion, the company said yesterday. [Page C4.]
But executives know they cannot let the situation fester, because it ultimately threatens Toyota’s ability to grow. If they fail to get their arms around the problem, they will have to pull back on the company’s expansion plans, which are set to include more assembly and engine plants for the United States, as well as factories elsewhere.
At Toyota’s annual executive meeting in June, its departing chairman, Hiroshi Okuda; the new chairman, Fujio Cho; and its chief executive, Katsuaki Watanabe, all vowed to managers that the quality issue would be addressed, according to a senior Toyota executive who attended the meeting.
“The quality issue is a big concern. They’re embarrassed about it,” said the executive, who insisted on anonymity because the meeting was private.
“You think about Toyota, and quality is in our DNA,” he continued. “We are concerned about looking like the rest of the pack. The market is forgiving because of our long reputation, but how long will they be forgiving?”
Interviews with car owners and dealers show they have some latitude.
Bruce Wachtell, 71, bought a 2006 Prius in March after years of driving a Toyota Tacoma pickup without any problems.
“It’s never seen a dealer,” he said of the truck.
Mr. Wachtell, a retired ship’s radio officer living in Stinson Beach, Calif., began buying foreign cars after growing frustrated with the quality of American-made vehicles. That sentiment is confirmed, he said, whenever he peruses repair records for various brands in Consumer Reports, and he has not lost any confidence in Toyota because of the recent recalls.
“I think recalls are just simply a function of the fact that no design is perfect,” he said.
Mr. Wachtell called his dealership after discovering recall notices that included the 2006 Prius on the Internet, but he was told his vehicle was not among those affected. Both the Tacoma and the Prius, however, are among the vehicles in Toyota’s recent recalls.
At Bredemann Toyota in Park Ridge, Ill., Don Ziemke, the general sales manager, said only a few shoppers had asked about the implications of the recalls. Other dealers said they had prepared their employees to answer such questions, but that no one had even brought up the topic.
“Toyota’s longevity and reliability has always been a strong suit,” Mr. Ziemke said. “That kind of takes a hit when there are recalls out there.”
Still, he said, “It’s against the grain as far as what Toyota has provided its dealer body and customers in the past.”
The primary reason for the recalls is Toyota’s overloaded engineering staff, say company executives and industry analysts.
Despite its global expansion during the 1990’s, it failed to hire enough engineers to keep up with production increases.
And it kept most of its development in Japan, even though it built research and development centers in places like Ann Arbor, Mich., and Brussels. At the same time, a new Japanese law required companies to pay for overtime for white-collar workers, raising the costs incurred by engineers, whose long hours on the job were the stuff of industry legend.
Analysts say that all this may have contributed to a number of errors introduced during vehicle development. There have been fewer problems on the assembly line, however, which has been a more common cause of recent recalls at other carmakers like Nissan.
Another issue is that Toyota, like other global auto companies, has farmed out the development of key components to its suppliers, both companies with which it has been doing business for years, like Denso of Japan, and newer ones, like the Delphi Corporation, the biggest American parts maker.
The damage has been slow to emerge — indeed, most recent recalls involve cars produced in the 1990’s. But that means potential problems from hectic growth years in the early 2000’s have yet to appear, and analysts warn that Toyota’s quality woes may only become worse before they get better.
“I’m more concerned about the future,” said Kunihiko Shiohara, an auto analyst for Goldman Sachs in Tokyo. “A fundamental turnaround in quality levels will take at least four years.”
It also does not help that some rivals appear to be gaining quality ground on Toyota, whose Toyota-brand cars and Lexus line of luxury cars had long topped quality rankings. It still dominated the recommended list from Consumer Reports this year. But in June, a survey of new-vehicle quality by J. D. Power & Associates, a marketing research company, ranked the German luxury carmaker Porsche in the top spot, and with Hyundai of South Korea in second place, ahead of Toyota at No. 3.
To be sure, rising recall numbers are not limited to Toyota. A reason that recalls have gone up is that automakers are using an increasing number of common parts across a number of car models, which saves money, but also means that flaws affect larger numbers of vehicles.
Another is the increasing complexity of vehicles, as companies rely more heavily on electronics and computerized features that used to be mechanical. “It’s not fair to single out Toyota for many problems,” said Takaki Nakanishi, an auto industry analyst with J. P. Morgan in Tokyo.
Still, the rapid rise in recalls at Toyota stands out in comparison with other carmakers. In Japan, where Toyota is the largest auto company, with about 39 percent of the market, its recalls quadrupled over the last four years, to 1.9 million in 2005. That compares with 199,000 at No. 2 Nissan and 205,000 at Honda in 2005, according to the transportation ministry.
In Toyota’s case, 68 percent of its recent recalls can be blamed on design flaws, according to Goldman Sachs. They include rubber parts not made thick enough to withstand engine heat and joints too weak to hold together. Of Toyota’s recalls in 2004, 68 percent were because of design problems, Goldman Sachs said.
Analysts say Toyota’s problems stem from the mid-1990’s, when Mr. Okuda, who was president, began expanding its global production. Toyota did not hire enough engineers to keep up with production increases because it was trying to meet tough self-imposed cost-cutting targets, analysts said.
Understaffed design centers have also forced Toyota to rely on large parts makers to help design major components “Toyota’s resources have been stretched quite a bit by the big increases in volume,” said Andrew Phillips, an analyst at Nikko Citigroup in Tokyo. “What’s remarkable is that most the recalls now predate the really big ramp-up.”
That came after 2000, when Toyota’s annual vehicle sales rose to the almost 8.85 million expected this year, from about 6 million.
But Toyota has increased the hiring of new engineers, bringing on 979 last year, compared with 310 in 2001. A company spokesman, Paul Nolasco, said Toyota planned to hire at least another 850 this year.
In a departure from corporate tradition that stressed spending a career at a single company, Toyota wants 200 of its new hires to be experienced engineers hired in midcareer from elsewhere.
In June, Toyota assigned a second executive vice president to its quality control division and created a new senior managing director spot dedicated to improving quality.
“Everyone is taking this very seriously,” said a top-ranking executive in Toyota’s North American operations who spoke only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation. The stakes are high, he added: “If we can’t lick it, we will have to slow down” — a decision Toyota hopes it does not have to make.
Nick Bunkley contributed reporting for this article.
#13
2012 Cadillac CTS-V Coupe
Originally Posted by Mike_TX
The IS's Nav, BTW, is better IMO than the RL's. It's Lexus' Gen V Nav, and it has some really cool features (like touch anywhere on the screen and hold it and the map will scroll; touch a spot and you can make that your destination with one "click"; it has a freeway mode that lists every upcoming exit, the distance to it and amenities available there; etc., etc.) And of course, you can use voice recognition to ask for nearby Chinese food, rest areas, gas stations, and all that stuff.
My 2004 Land Cruiser with the Gen IV system has many of the features you mentioned (touch the screen to scroll) not a big deal to me and using the joystick, you get the same effect with the RL and no fingerprints!
You obviously are not intimitely familiar with the RLs Nav, because the NAV displays an "i" icon on most interchanges. Scroll over to the "i", click on it and it shows you all the amenities at that interchange (gas stations, lodging, restaurants, etc.). The RL also allows you to set waypoints along your destinations in order to deviate from your destination without canceling your original route.
Ask the RL to show you the nearest Italian restaurant, and you get a list (with ZAGAT ratings).
Also don't forget, NavTraffic. Traffic flow is amazingly accurate, and simply ask the RL for a list of traffic incidents, and it will display them within a 30 mile radius.
I don't mean to be argumentative. I feel all three cars are wonderful machines, but the original poster does deserve an objective review of the features.
As for MY opinion, I was just the opposite. I did drive the TL, it's a wonderful car, but I WANTED the RL, and at the price I got it for, I don't regret it for a single minute.
Are TLs with Nav going for ~$32K? because if so then yes there is a $10K difference, but if not, the difference is less.
The difference in price (whatever it is) between the TL and the RL nets you the following in order of importance (my opinion)...
SH-AWD
NavTraffic
Keyless access and ignition
10-speaker vs 8-speaker audio system
slightly larger dimensions
Active Front lighting system
Automatic Noise cancellation
There's more, but what's listed more than explains the price difference. Due to your personal preferences these features may not be sufficient justification for you, but there is a difference between the two in content. That's why he should drive all of them in order to make an informed opinion.
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