zeta

iTrader: (1)

If you look at the mechanics/functionality of the parts involved as a whole, 'over torquing' is a valid point.

That whole timing belt adjuster arm, with the pulley, is supposed to float on the auto adjuster collar, secured/fastend by the timing belt adjuster bolt to the water pump assembly.

In theory, and IMHO, if that timing belt adjuster bolt was clamped down beyond/over the serviceable limit, that in turn could reduce/severly limit the little play that may be present (even though the auto tensioner is there to provide constant pressure on the pulley and thus keeping the belt within normal limits of tension to avoid jumping) for that whole assembly to float ever-so-slightly depending on engine speed/demand. Therefore, over the period of time it took to accumulate the 40k+ miles, it's reasonable to conclude that a potential metal fatigue issue could have presented itself and the bolt, unfortunetly, gave way, leaving the end result. I hope that paints a somewhat clear picture of the logic flow Im trying to use.

pits200

I completely agree with your logic. But what the shop is trying to say is that since it took 40k miles for the bolt to fail that "oh why oh why would it have taken so long for it to fail if you CLAIM that it was over torqued"

I got a call from the shop, to tear apart the car, remove the head and send it to the machine shop and replace all head gasket and all others will cost around $2,200 plus I think he said $22 for each valve that needs replaced.

I'd love to upgrade here and do some internal upgrades since the engine is going to be torn apart but I just don't know if the dealership would actually do any of the 3.5 upgrade stuff.

n0rm

iTrader: (6)

I should've typed:

biggest burden is proving that the shop was the one who overtorqued the bolt. 16 months and 45K miles later..........

tnobori1

The judge is going to look for a reasonable cause. The word of several certified techs and the nature of the failure seem to support the "over-torquing" theory. Again, it's hard to speculate because I'm in CA and CA almost always sides with the consumer.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

If you look at the flip side, you went up to 155K miles on the ORIGINAL (correctly installed) factory componts with no issues. 40K miles is almost a third of 155K and that may be the serviceable limit of an improperly torqued bolt with this functionality. So their assertion that 40K is this huge amount of distance is somewhat muted when you consider the first 155K of trouble free miles.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

forth is closer than third

pits200

Well I am going to file the small claim court papers today, so I wonder what the time line would be.

CLSspeedx

Best of luck pits! Thats terrible to think shops get away with crap. I was still mad PepBoys never aligned my rear tires as I paid them to do. I'm glad you have good documentation and photos.

pits200

Thanks bronamith.

I am working on a demand letter this weekend and sending it first thing Monday morning.

If anyone else has any suggestions on the best way to purse this, I'm all ears.

pits200

Wow what an article to find... haha

http://www.auto-facts.org/bolt-torque.html

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Good stuff!

I performed that GM LIM repair mentioned under the 'Proper bolt torque' header, except it was on a 3.4V6. Talking about a pain in the ass! The torque amounts and the sequence of tightening the LIM was just as important as the revised Felpro gasket.

https://acurazine.com/forums/car-talk-5/gm-3-4v6-lower-intake-manifold-gasket-repair-391068/

Good luck with your small claims case.

pits200

I hope your mom made you a good homemade meal after you got done with that install. What a PITA that must have been.

I'll never forget changing the clutch in my 87 dodge shadow 2.2 turbo, I swear they must have used a different size bolt for each component, metric, standard, what a mess..


Hm, does anyone think I should get the aid of a structural engineer also? I seriously want to stick it to these people, not just because of the money but just out of principle. I am wayyyy too righteous for my own good

CH46ESeaKnight

Eveery little bit would help! I hope you stick it to them also! They screwed up!

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

so are you going to donate the money afterwards to a charity, sense it is about the principle and not the money???

pits200

Well if I didn't include the word "Just" (just about the money) then it would sound like that. But it is possible to have two motives and still be righteous about both.

If there is any excess money once the money out of my pocket is repaid, I'll consider a charity of your choosing but there won't be much left I'm guessing.

tnobori1

Dude, did you and friesm2000 get into it somewhere else? This guy is up your ass for some reason!

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

I am really sorry this happened, thanks for that DIY site, great info there.

To the people up Pit's A*s I hope nothing like this happens to you or anyone you care about, but if it does I hope you are happy to just pay and move on.

Acura ignored the defective transmission in my 97 3.0 CL for three years, it failed a few k out of warranty and small claims made them pay the money back that I paid the shop that rebuilt it.

I may have missed it, has the shop already told you to pound sand?

Good luck I hope you get this resolved.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Good luck man, I hope you get some sort of reimbursement.

pits200

Ya, they pretty much told me that the warranty period is over and tough these things happen.

I mean, they are running a business, if this was a $100 problem, I bet they would open the table for a compromise. But being that this will cost anywhere from $3,000 to $4,000 to fix, I can understand why they are acting like this even though I don't respect it.

All in all, I feel I have a strong case. They are trying to use the logic that bolts break but I have the proof that something was done wrong with the dimple on the opposite side of the water pump. Don't you agree that it looks fishy?? I checked an exact water pump from napa and there is no mark like on mine.

pits200

Ha, I was thinking the same thing, he really was busting my chops about everything.

But honestly I appreciate people playing Devil's advocate, it makes me think about all angles that the shop might use once I have my day in court.

I'm trying to see how to best present this case to a judge being that he probably doesn't understand the inner workings of an engine and why this is such a huge expensive fix.

pits200

I am wrapping up the demand letter tomorrow morning with my attorney and will be sending it certified mail. The BBB informed me that my complaint has been filed and the shop will be receiving it sometime soon.

I will be going all aspects, if something fails in court, then there is the attorney general of pa. Persistence pays.

p.diddy

iTrader: (3)

+1

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

that is what i see with the warrenty being over

:devilgrin, but you are basically at the same mileage as the factory warrenty would have been over (and if it was an "honda" [like an accord] it would have been over already), so i don't really see how you are entitled to the repair cost (especially when it proably said 1 yr./12k miles warrenty on the bill), but i can undestand how you say it was improper installation and you want compensation for it, i just don't think it is right

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Maybe I missed this, but you do have the parts that failed right? The waterpump alone is reason enough to rule in your favor.

pits200

Civic, yes I have the parts, look on page 2 of this thread. Those are exact pictures of the parts removed by the dealership.

I don't want to keep repeating myself but Fries, the tech and entire Acura dealership will back me and sign a sworn affidavit for court that the part was improperly installed and that was the sole reason for tbelt tensioner failure hence, the warranty aspect is null and void because technically the install was never actually completed properly.

Also, fries, no one answered my air filter example. Lets say a shop forgot to put the air filter back in the car and the engine failed 40k miles later. Just because it's outside the warranty period, you think the shop isn't responsible anymore???

tnobori1

I can't believe I forgot to mention that! The BBB has an arbitration process that is free and binding for the business! In other words, if you don't like the ruling, you can pursue legal action. The business, however, has to adhere to the judgement if the BBB rules against them.

I used it once against Acura... still dealing with that particular problem. You all can read about it here
https://acurazine.com/forums/1-2g-mdx-2001-2013-166/upgrading-2006-questions-754406/

pits200

Trust me, before this is over, I'm going to have them answering to so many complaints, they are going to wish they settled and did the right thing in the first place.

Perhaps after this, they will teach their techs to use a torque wrench a little more often.

Sorry about the MDX navi problem. Sometimes those small things are more annoying because people make it seem like you're making a big deal out of nothing when they don't understand it's about money and principle.

You probably paid a $1,500 (I know it's 2k new) premium for that navi in the MDX and it's not working, you have every right to completely be angry about that, just because your tranny didn't fall out, it doesn't mean you have any less reason to be upset.

fuzzy02CLS

iTrader: (2)

Well, this does suck, & it's going to not go well for anyone.
However I have to say that parts break, crap happens, call it whatever.
I'd be pissed too, but unless you can prove the shop actually did something to make it fail nothing is going to happen in a case like this. 40K miles is a lot of driving. It's a lot of what if's. And you just did a large road trip. Heat & cold expansion cycles.
Just because Acura says to install something 1 way & a shop didn't doesn't mean a thing. They could not have known, they could have missed it, they could have willingly did it, again what if's.
While I do hope your outcome is good, I can't see it being that way.

pits200

It surprises me how many differing opinions I keep getting..

To each their own.. But Fuzzy, did you see the pictures. I have evidence, if I didn't have any of the parts and everything was just speculation then I'd completely agree I have no case at all.

The bolt was reused and not replaced by the shop at 155k miles which is fine. So it lasted for 7 years and 155k miles through winters, summers, falls and springs without failing. Now, 15 months later and 40k miles it fails after the other shop touches it.

So the shop can't use the explanation that the bolt was defunct and had a fault in it out of the showroom floor because it lasted so long.

As for the Acura dealership, do you really think they would sign a sworn LEGAL affidavit unless they were absolutely certain?? There is a difference between buddy buddy, but not when it comes to the law no one is going to stick their neck out unless 100% certain.

CH46ESeaKnight

This does not make them any less liable. It's just like the Law, Ignorance is no excuse. Thats like saying "Sorry Officer, I did not know it was illegal to smoke my tires for 300 yards through a school zone, so you should not give me a ticket because I did not know". If he was working on the car for a company, then it is the company that must ensure he knows what he is doing as they ARE liable for what he does while on the clock.

Pitts, I think, I would take the bad water pump in to court with a brand new one from napa, or Acura, or where ever they got thiers from for a side by side, for the judge to look at. Might help. I'd clean it really well so his balif doesn not hand him and oily part!

CH46ESeaKnight

Write this stuff down (Its good stuff) with all the other possibles the shop my try and use. Put them into some easily readable notes and take them to court with you for reference. There is no way you'll remember stuff like that was you start with the offence in court. You want to be able to have a answer for everything they may try.

pits200

Ha, CH46, thanks man, I think you get more heated than I do when some of these people don't understand where I'm coming from. I can tell you feel the same way that I do about this whole situation.

I think what most people who are arguing that I can't win agree the shop might have messed up but you know the saying, "it only matters what you can prove" and I think that's their stand.

But seriously I appreciate your support dude.

I plan on bringing the old (broken, well not technically broken) water pump and a brand new one to show the judge, just like you said.

But after that, i need to explain to him why there is more than just the $944 dollar timing belt fee and that there is an additional $2500 in damage to the engine. Would I need to explain why it caused damage like it did or would he just take my word and estimate from the dealership.

tnobori1

When in doubt, spell it out! Ha ha, gay rhyme, but still true. Be over-prepared and over-informed. If the judge (or abritrator) doesn't need to know the details, he'll let you know. You'll have the opportunity to submit as much evidence as you want.

Thanks for the comments about the MDX. It is an issue of money AND principal. Just like yours!

CH46ESeaKnight

No prob, but I still dont agree with you on how nice of a car the CLS is!

Ya, I get kinda heated, but to each his own, just seems like some really stupid things have been said in favor of the shop(and not stupid just because it is in favor of the shop). Some of it makes no sence at all to me. But it is just me and I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, if you know what I mean.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

tell the dealer to check if their are bent valves. that way u can bring a mechanic (an acura tech) and let him explain what happened when the timing belt broke do to over tightening. then get estimates on how much its gonna cost to replace what broken.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

repeat yourself agian please,

and i would not forget about putting in an air filter, i doable check my work, but IF i did it, i would proably just call them up and get them to come back in, (also i don't close up the airbox/tighten it (since they like screws on hondas ) back up UNLESS there is a filter in there

thank you fuzzy; i guess that is kinda what i was getting towards, that there is ALOT of what ifs for what could have happened between the time they did the t/belt and the time the bolt broke (anyways i think it was like 45K too)

Acura (the corp) may say to do something one way, but after a while alot of the techs (including acura techs) learn how to do stuff a different way cause they can save time and not have to remove as much stuff (and still get it done with the same end result) like how acura says too.
here is an example with adjusting valves, the service manual says to remove the t/belt cover to see the timing marks, but acura even provided little inspection holes so you do not even have to remove the t/belt covers (with marker points too), but doing it that way WOULD NOT be correct by the service manual

CH46ESeaKnight

Like talking to a friggen wall man! You totally missed the point of the air filter statment, and you still did not answer his question. Its the same exact thing.
Every mechanic makes mistakes, including you. But they/you are still responsible for their/your mistakes.

What type of mechanic are you fries? Automotive? Shop? Dealership? ASE?

pits200

Hmm, I didn't realize there were multiple ways to do 28ftlbs of torque onto a bolt.

And who is saying that the shop did the job differently? That is not even in the same realm as to what I'm arguing.

Not torquing bolts properly isn't considered as "Doing the job different" and not by by the Acura Service manual. That is considered not doing the job properly. Big difference. I don't care if they take of the side motor mount first and remove the power steering belt first, as long as each step is done PROPERLY.


Fries, you aren't getting the analogy about the air filter. I am making you realize that there are times when a shop can be held at fault even after the "warranty period" and it has nothing to do what you would do in your situation as a tech.

pits200

Ya, I thought the air filter analogy was a pretty good example because the engine wouldn't just break right away. Just because the engine might last for 45k miles without the air filter doesn't mean that the fault can't fall on the mechanic.

These mechanic guys all stick together.

e30cabrio

iTrader: (6)

Kind of funny of you to say that seeing as you have repeated yourself quite a bit in this thread.

I for one get it you think he should just deal with his car and leave the poor mechanic alone.

Assuming the bolt was over torqued, do you really think anyone else did it?

You acknowledge it is a job just getting to it right?

Do you think the dealer, far away did it & now is signing a statement that there were mistakes made?