CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

tru... u are in america... (where u can spill coffee on urself and get millions of $)...

so anything IS possible.

pits200

Don't act like I am sue happy dude if that is what you are implying. If I failed to properly care for my car, then I'd understand shit happening. This problem was a DIRECT relation to the shops poor work..

If you're a tech, you should feel like the techs at the Acura dealership where I took the car. They are pissed cause they kept saying, "its shops like this one that gives mechanics a bad name and can't do a simple job right (simple job being proper torque specs)"

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

there are also plenty of times that we get screwed over with not getting paid enough ethier

and i did get your point about the bolt, thats what the was for

and for the bolts failing like that, not very often at all, but can happen especially when the bearing siezes on it (and that was suppose to be on a non-interference, but it still bent like 8 or 12 out of the 16 valves)
also that bearing it not very lightly loaded, it actually has quite a bit of force on it (by honda service manual it is suppose to take more then 2200 lbs of force to push the piston on the tensioner back)

have you also thought about this, is it that bolt could of been damaged when it was remove from being siezed in the block from waiting so long to do it (only had to be very minor damge) just saying, but yeah they more then likly overtightened it

pits200

Excellent points, now this is a good argument :-P. As for the bolt, I've broken off many bolts while trying to take them out but if I didn't see the indentation on the opposite side of the water pump like shown in one of the pics on page two, I'd consider the same thing. The raised dimple shows that the bolt was torqued on so hard INITIALLY that it made a dent coming out the other side.

Come on, that has to raise your eyebrow like it did the tech at the Acura dealership.. Take a close look at the picture, that dimple shouldn't be there. I have another water pump at home and it doesn't have that indentation.

pits200

Oh ya, also, the tensioner didn't fail, it was in great condition being that the shop last year changed it. The Acura dealership reused the part on the new timing belt installed this week and the tech stated he found the bolt sitting at the bottom of the housing of the timing belt.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

about the tensioner just saying that: that little sucker has alot of force behind and it is transfered straight to ethier the belt or that bolt
also there is the possibility that water pump was never machined right ethier and it exagerated the shop with overtightening it to get the tensioner bearing arm from seating fully and not wobbleing,
also just to make sure who is the manufacter of that WP

CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

dude I wasn't being a dick to u. I'm just saying SHIT happens, and maybe people (including myself) have been screwed for much more than 1,2or3K.

I'm just saying it could B worse, and on the same not you may get ur money back also. I live in Canada man. We have the "reasonable person's act" i.e no bullshit court cases... as in serious cases. Unless u have uncontested proof. Which yoy don't really have.

Sure u have the over tightened bolt fact, but there is always some sort of counter-case that may be applicable to that scenario. Like, the bolt was overtightened due to faulty tq wrench setting possibly (he went for a break, found it the tq wrench on the ground, thought nothing of it, but it really had fallen and the settings we messed, which made the bolt mess up.), or some other bs reason.

point is I would be prepared for the worst and if u get the reimbursement then u are ahead.

ask urself when the last time u were F'd? lol

maybe u were due for some bad for a change, who knows

we all get screwed over at some point in our lives for SOME reason, and u could swear it's ONLY you, only you

pits200

I understand this stuff, but you're validating my point, if they couldn't get it to sit right, they shouldn't just keep tightening such an important bolt when you know that putting more stress on a certain area can lead to bolt failure. Go grab one of the other 50 water pumps from the back and get one with better threads so it torques in properly.

The onus falls on the mechanic to follow safety guidelines and not just "make it work", I'm surprised you can't see that.

CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

I think we all see that man, but WE are car enthusiasts. not government pawns. so it all reality is a flip of a coin really. Being right doesn't mean u'll get whats urs in the courts eyes.

Keep in mind they see this shyt all the time probably so just make sure ur case is thorough, and it won't cost u more than u'll get.

I do think u can/should get urs... but it doesn't mean jack until the hammer is dropped

pits200

Lol, man if you don't have a career yet, you totally should be a defense attorney, I can see you getting your clients off left and right with the craziest defenses.. Thanks for responding though even if we agree to disagree.

But in the states, the shop is responsible for the mechanics work since he is an employee. If he messes up, the shop bears the burden to accept responsibility for his work.

So it doesn't matter how he screwed up, the point is that he did mess up regardless if it was a toothpick that was stuck in his shoe and jabbed him at the exact moment he was torquing the bolt and lead him to be cross-eyed with pain and made him misread the torque wrench.. It doesn't matter, lol, he messed up.

Also, we have small claims court in the US, it's going to cost me $25 to take them to court.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

but like said there are butchers out that don't care abount it, sometimes you might be able to get the needed part right away or in in a couple days



anyway gotto go now i gotta work in the mourning so talk to you all later

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

was that a oem honda water pump? if it is, I wanted to see if that dimpled part was already there. I have a brand new honda water pump at home.

n0rm

iTrader: (6)

Do you have any proof that the original shop that did your timing belt was the one that over torqued the bolt? It did happen 45K miles later. I don't exactly know how much time it took you to accumulate that mileage but the shop can always say anything can happen during that time.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

who knows what other things that shop did that dont happen right away. like what if they were doing brakes and over tightened a caliper bolt. bolt snapped. caliper locked up the wheel, u lost control hit a van with a family. van lost control and slide across ur lane into oncoming traffic and got hit by a truck. and family in van die.
shit happens?

op- did the shop take pic of the water pump installed with the broken bolt?

CH46ESeaKnight

Improper install has nothing to do with defects in workmanship! Defects in workmanship has to do with the belt itself. Like as if there was a problem in the build of the belt during the manufacturing.


Alot of people are talking and giving wrong advice here. Some real dumbass remarks.

People, OWN what you say! If you gonna say it make sure its correct.

Pitts has a very valid case here. Im sure his family of attorneys have more of a clue than a buch of guys on the forums giving their 2 cents.

CH46ESeaKnight

How in the hell would a faulty TQ wrench setting be a counter to his case. That is about retarted. Wow, how the fuck do you come up with this shit. So your saying it Pitts fault that the mechanic used the wrong setting on the wrench?

He never claimed he is the only one getting screwed.

Dude why don't you go buy some more Ebay Rotors for you car.


It's a very simple thing here. His shit was improperly installed! If he can prove it he should be entilteled to compensation.

Also remember he has a lawyer in the family taking the case for free and to file a suit in small claims is $25. How is it going to cost more then he would need to get his engine fixed.

pits200

Ya, I have a new Honda water pump at home too and I called my dad to go and look at it and we did a comparison over the phone and there is no dimple.

This is an aftermarket water pump, so I know the comparison isn't completely valid comparing it to a OEM pump.

I'm going to track down the kind of water pump the shop used and compare it apples to apples.

pits200

I mean, you can say that in any case. If this was an easily accessible part, then I could see that. But I'd have to pay someone a few hundred dollars to get to the timing belt tensioner and over tighten the bolt and I'm not sure for what gain, my car ran great. Like I said, you could use that logic in any case then, when someone changes your oil, who doesn't say someone goes underneth and loosens the oil filter and has it fall off.

It took about 16 months to accumulate those miles. But I do all easy highway miles.

pits200

I agree obviously. I thought this case was pretty much common sense. I like the analogy about the family and the brakes, I was thinking the same exact thing.

You are using an extreme case to prove that faulty workmanship led to the issue, whether it severely impacts a person through an accident or monetary lose. And that is the perfect point, whether its a big or small mistake, its still negligence.

Zippee

He may be at "fault", but trying to recover damages when the problem shows up after the warranty has expired is another matter.

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

look for any markings or numbers on the pump. If you have to, go down to your local parts store and ask too see their stock of water pumps for our cars and compare the design there. The more proof you have that the shop effed up, the better.

p.diddy

iTrader: (3)

that shouldnt matter if he has a warranty or not. the bolt failed because of improper installation. if it just failed on its own then it would be his problem to deal with.

pits200

Exactly, and I called every dealership of every type. Acura, Honda, GM, random shops and none of them have ever head of a bolt failing on a timing belt tensioner and they all say the only reason that would happen is because of over torquing.

The tensioner didn't seize up causing excess stress on the bolt, it was just the guy obviously used his impact gun on a part that shouldn't have been tightened so much.


By the way, does anyone know the exact torque specs for that bolt.

Nersh7

His point wasn't saying that this is what the shop will use for that exact defense but more along the lines of if they did express due diligence(spelling??) that this may not go in pits direction, BTW I hope you get the money for a new engine and more to cover the stress of the whole situation. But no need to freak out at this guy for looking at all the angles.

CH46ESeaKnight

WOW you just dont get it do you? Improper install has nothing to do with the warranty! Warranty of the belt IS A MOOT POINT! He is not holding the belt manufature liable. He is going after the shop for improper install.

Really? What is so hard to under stand about this?

Zippee

Do you really think that while the warranty on the belt has expired, that the warranty on installation goes on forever?

You don't seem to grasp the concept that it's the total job that is under warranty-parts and the labor to install them-and that this warranty is for a specified time.

If the belt had broken or the improper installation had come to light during the warranty period the op would have been covered. As it appeared well after the warranty ran out he's likely out of luck.

CH46ESeaKnight

Wrong, Wrong and guess what? WRONG.

Who's warranty are you refering to. The shop or the manufacture of the belt. They are completly seperate!

Either way it does not matter as the install was never completed correctly!


If the bolt had just broke, I could understand, but there is proof of over Torque resulting in ther failure.

CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

yea man I hope u get what u deserve (ur motor in preemo condition)... it's just a hard thing to prove in this world. And the excuse they CAN come up with IE like a tq wrench being out of wack(that's just an example) therfore the mechanic coudl SAY he tq'd it to what he thought was spec. therefore it's not the mechanics fault, but a result of the circumstances... I am no lawyer but we all know how BS is somehow valid in the court of law. so just because we may think it's so obvious, it really has to be over the top evident where the wrong was done

There are so many loopholes in the system, that's all i'm saying.

Which is why u need a lot of uncontested proof so there is only one place to point ur finger

p.diddy

iTrader: (3)

what its still improper installation.

TheWeez

This whole thread is a clusterfuck. In the end I'd almost be willing to put money on nothing coming of it and the OP having to pay for everything outta pocket. Typical internet thread of "I'm gonna sue" that ends with nothing happening.

CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

yea improper do to human error is one thing (making a mistake), but coincidence (due to some other event/occurence) may be another.

I am no lawyer I'm just speculating here as we all are.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

It appears that the bolt in question is called the 'Timing belt adjuster bolt'. This, inturn, holds the 'Timing belt adjuster' to the water pump housing.

http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no

I looked throughout the manual for the torque spec for that particular bolt; however, I can not seem to find it. Maybe an actual Honda tech can chime in with their experience.

The torque spec's I could find are as follows:
Autotensioner bolts=8.7lbf-ft.
Idler pulley bolt=33lbf-ft.
Water pump bolts=8.7lbf-ft.

Moreover, I would'nt think that the torque would be any more then the spec for the Idler pulley bolt (no less than 29 perhaps), though. Will keep looking through the manual.

tnobori1

Wow, we got a lot of armchair lawyers in here! Now it's my turn! LOL!

The bottom line is that every state (and certainly every country) has their own laws regarding consumer and service relationships. I will say that if this happened in CA, you would have a great chance of winning in court. I have some experience in small claims, and several lawyers I've spoken to over the years agree that small claims court judges tend to halve the award amount. In other words, you ask for $5k you will probably get $2-$3k. That is also what I experienced in my case.

The fact that the bolt was over-torqued SHOULD make the shop responsible for the work beyond the warranty. The fact that so many Acura/Honda techs have corroborated the story only gives your argument strength. Maybe this shop should reduce the number of water pumps it replaces from 300 to 150 so they can focus on quality instead of quantity.

I really hope this works out for you man. It sucks to get screwed over with no retribution. Keep us posted.

pits200

Please stop posting in here, you're acting like I'm suing for no reason. Any lawyer would agree with my story and I'm not just saying that because they want to make money.

This is small claims court where a lawyer technically does not come into play.

I'll bet you $20 that I get a favorable judgment from the court. Not quiet sure why you are slow on the pickup.

Think of this, a mechanic forgets to put the brake line bolt in and 1.5 years down the road, it gets caught up and frays the line leading to massive brake failure and you crash head on into a bus and go up in a fiery mess.


HMMMM, i guess the mechanic wasn't responsible for not properly putting your car back together.

pits200

Thanks so much man, I'm going to pick the brains of a tech the next time I'm not swamped with work. I can't imagine that it would be too many ftlbs being that its not really heavy load bearing. It probably is like an oil filter, you are just suppose to hand tighten it and not put 200ftlbs of torque onto the bolt so it protrudes out the other side.

Thanks again, I appreciate your research.

pits200

Thanks for your input, I don't just appreciate it because it agrees with me but because its intelligent unlike so many of the other posts in here.

But based on the pictures and the Acura techs agreeing with me, do you guys feel the same way that the over torquing caused the failure??? or am I in the minority here???

Zippee

The only warranty in play is the shop's. In this case 12 months or 12,000 miles.

n0rm

iTrader: (6)

I think the biggest burden you have is proving who over torqued it.

Good luck no matter what.

pits200

Zippee, Zippee, Zippee..

The shop warranty doesn't matter, try to think outside the box man. Use another situation where its more clear cut. Lets say a company was suppose to put a new air filter into your car and FORGOT to.

One day down the road well outside the warranty period of the air filter your engine takes a crap and the mechanic tells you "hey, you know there is no air filter in your car and that's why your engine died"

Would you let the mechanic who was suppose to do the air filter install off scott free because its outside their warranty period.

I'm not sure how many more situations I can give you that make complete sense.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

thats why the mechanic signs off on it. if he doesnt he doesnt get paid. and i think he wants to get paid for a tbelt job