SlickShiftNall6

iTrader: (4)

Hey man sorry to hear about your situation. I knew it wasn't a bad belt or bad motor. Fucking half ass mechanic.
Anyway about the 3.5 conversion. The thing is you don't use the whole mdx motor. Only the crank, rods and associated bearings and bolts. You keep your pistons (unless you want to change compression), the cylinder head, valvetrain etc. Problem is with your situation is that your head is damaged. If you wanted to fix your current problem you wouldn't have to pull the whole motor. So you got some thinking to do.
Ohh btw there is one 3.5 thread in particular that references the parts that can be used, and the benefits of going with certain parts instead of others. Thats the thread you need. I will look for it, or someone else may post it up if they know of it. Good luck and I hope that shop does the right thing.

pits200

I don't know if I stated everything correctly. The bolt that sheered off was the one that held the tensioner in place on the water pump.. That is the one that was over torqued.

pits200

Water pump, you can see on the left where the tensioner goes the sheered bolt.





Closeup of sheered off bolt.



Back side of water pump where the bolt that holds the tensioner on. You can see the raised dimple from the over torquing, that is not suppose to be like that.



Shredded up timing belt

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

don't drive the car around if your going to use the heads.
They will end up being junk.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

just change the valve guides and u need to put in new valves anyway. ive put almost 2 k on my bent valves. runs fine, just misfires at idle and sometimes turns off, but i usually keep the revs up when it wants to turn off. o well. i should be getting some heads in next week or so.


that will definitely hold up in court. just show them how the water pump is supposed to look like and then show the court the broken water pump.

u have a wining case.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

guides will be smoked for sure. Bent valves will lead to valves bent worse and worse till one gets jammed.Then hole in piston,or rocker gets broken and you can flaten out cam lobes too.
Nothing but bad news.
Might as well go for the 3.5 lower end now.

How many miles were the belts rated for that were installed before?

pits200

Only problem is, i am taking them to small claims court but I don't know what to do.

Option 1.) Pay dealership a lot of money (around $500 I'm guessing) to just tear the engine apart to find the exact problems so I can get an estimate when I file the small claims court papers.

Option 2.) I would replace everything and pay out of pocket before court and then give an itemized list of things that needed fixed. If I were to do that, Id have to stick with exact parts for my car and not upgraded 3.5 stuff..

What a hassle.

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

tear it apart. get an estimate, and then take it to court. i dont know how long u can be without the tl nor how long it will take the court to give u a date. but take it to court before doing to work.

gnuts

iTrader: (1)

From watching a fair bit of Judge Judy...(I know i know)...you'll definitely want to get proof that the shops negligence caused all this. Also if you can have a separate mechanic - a very good one - in court as an expert witness to testify that the shops negligence would have resulted in exactly what happened to your car. So you'll need an estimate from maybe two acura dealerships, and have an expert witness there with you. Good luck.

pits200

Eh, I can be without the CL for awhile, I have another vehicle.

As for the Judge Judy comment, don't feel bad, that bad ass lady makes you learn respect for the court which is a good lesson to know.

But I was planning on getting sworn affidavits from the Acura dealership who did the work. (They're in Jersey, I live in Pittsburgh so they couldn't be there in person.) Also, my lawyer said the same thing as you Gnuts. Take the parts into a local Acura dealership and have the techs look at it and get them to come to court with me and testify that this is the reason for the failure of the bolt, hence ruining my timing belt and engine.

StonedCL

iTrader: (1)

GO on car-parts.com and buy a junk yard engine..
You can get one for under $500 and then do the timing belt water pump (at a diff shop this time) before u drop the engine in the car.. I will prob come out alot cheaper and u will have a engine with 1/2 the miles if not 1/3 the miles!

Zippee

How much warranty did the shop give you on the belt replacement?

pits200

1 year 12k mile warranty. But the warranty aspect is a moot point because of the improper install.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

also how much did you pay the shop that did the timing belt???

just woundering cause that is sometimes what you get when you choose a cheap shop
also why did you wait so long to change the origional belt???

but yeah that bolt should have never broke

and might be good to have a mechanical/structial engineer (not quite sure of what type you would need) as a witness too

TheWeez

He's gonna end up spending more to have someone come testify for him and then he would to just have the engine rebuilt on his own dime. The fact that he drove the car after the fact totally fucks his case too. Good luck getting a judge agree to what damage was caused by the shop and what was cause by driving it after the fact.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

yeah i know the engine is already pretty much already f***ed, but if he was going to try and get his money back, it was just a suggestion

btw: just wait till one of the bent valves fatigues and breaks the head off, that will be some fun damage <(wish is in red)

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

^2k miles on my engine with bent valves and still going strong. lol. knock on wood

pits200

I waited so long to change my original belt based on other people's testimonies bout the timing belts on these vehicles and because I really rack up the miles on the car, pretty much all highway miles. If I were to change the timing belt at 105k, Id have to change it again before I got rid of the car. This way, I only need to change it once.

As for going cheap, that's not my style, all the things I have done to this car are quality mods.. Comptech stuff, etc.., Id rather not do something if I can't afford to do it right. As for being a cheap shop, this place seriously seriously had a good repuation, Ive taken an old integra there before to have the clutch replaced and they did a great job. I think I paid $550 for the timing belt change btw, but I don't have the bill in front of me now.

pits200

It states on the invoice for the timing belt that the valves were bent before I put a mile on the car after the timing belt change a couple days ago. If the valves are bent, the valves are bent whether they are severe or slight, they will need to be paid to be changed. The tech at the dealership told me the car was fine to drive, so no offense, I'm going to take his word over 99% of people.

This isn't civil court either, you don't hire expensive lawyers and pay $5k for a testimony like you do in civil or criminal court. So I'm not sure how I would spend more money to take it to court ($25 fee) and get the sworn affidavit from the Acura dealership/tech who did the work on my car this week.

As for proving what damage was done by the shop, its easy to prove that if a timing belt breaks it leads to engine damage. What happens after is from the shops negligence in the first place.

pits200

Can I ask how your car sounds when you idle, mine putters a little, not like its going to stall.. When I Cruise at 2k rpms, i couldnt tell the difference, but it gets shaky if I try to give it any kind of strong acceleration.

pits200

Weez, you've given advice twice in the thread and both times you've been so far off. Do you ever proofread what you post?

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

^?


my car sounds like its camed at idle. while driving its all good.

Zippee

Not a moot point at all.

The improper install is covered as a defect in workmanship under the same 12/12 warranty as the parts. In this case the defect in workmanship didn't come up until 45k (33k after the warranty expired).

I hope you get something but I think you are screwed.

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

hmm better take a read on the fine print of the warranty and double check what it says

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

ok lets say you got rid of the car at 225k you still could of done the belt at 120k and only had to do it once
but also being at 155k when it was changed, i bet that belt was quite stretched (valve timing way off) and it did not quite run its best, which is part of the reason for changing the belt sooner, also did the water pump happen be leaking at that mileage (proably was)
with the price being at 550, that happens to be at the lower end of a timing belt job, so they proably did not do a whole lot (which is also part of the reason for napa parts), cause by the book (which most shops charge by) is 4.6 hours (and that does not include labour for the water pump ethier just a new belt) X $90 (which was the labour rate a couple of years ago [to be fair] at my work/shop, and that is an independent, so thank you for not going to the stealership) = $414 does not leave a whole lot of room for quality parts (let alone parts), extra labour, or even Quality labour and if they did the water pump too even less

(just looked at prices at napa online can't back date them ) so $414 plus water pump at $74 plus gasket at $4 (which does not even look like they used, instead they used RTV sealant [honda's at least by the looks of it) so $492
plus belt (timing component includes bearings) at $135 so $627 total and that does not even include tax or shop supplies (or if that included other work in the 550 that you remember, so get the bill now), so i think they may not have the best techs there doing the work, but that is just my

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

but yeah if the warrenty only says 1yr/12,000 miles you are kinda screwed cause the invoice will have the mileage and date on it

pits200

Auto Mechanic's Liability For Damages Resulting From Negligent Repairs

As with other professions, an automobile mechanic has a responsibility to customers. An auto mechanic's duty is to insure vehicle repairs are performed properly and in accordance with current standards. so that motor vehicle accidents do not happen as a result of professional negligence.

When an auto mechanic fails in his obligation to a customer and that customer suffers personal injury, damage or loss which is attributable to the mechanic's negligence the mechanic may be liable for damages to the customer.

There are components to a negligent repair action that must be proven. Firstly, it must be proved the mechanic had a duty to use ordinary and reasonable care. Ordinary care, generally means the care that a reasonable man would exercise under the circumstances. Reasonable care can also be defined as the degree of caution and concern for the safety of himself/herself and others an ordinarily prudent and rational person would use in the circumstances.

The standard of care expected by an auto mechanic also depends on the nature of the repairs. A higher standard is expected for repairs such as brakes, wheels and steering.

The second element to a successful negligent repair action is proof the mechanic was negligent, or careless, in performing the repairs. The final factor is proving the auto mechanic's negligent repairs were the reason for the customer's injury, damage or loss. The customer does not have to prove the mechanic's negligence was the sole or only cause of the customer's loss, but must show the improper repairs were the main reason for the loss.


That is a sampling

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

a motor vehicle accident never happened and he did not want the bolt accidently coming lose

pits200

The second element to a successful negligent repair action is proof the mechanic was negligent, or careless, in performing the repairs. The final factor is proving the auto mechanic's negligent repairs were the reason for the customer's injury, damage or loss.


And the bolt didn't come loose, it broke off. A warranty is only valid if the install is done properly.. And the over torquing of the bolt voids the installation as being done properly.

Look at it this way, what if you go get new tires on your car and the mechanic over torques your lug nuts and warps your rotors? There is no warranty on this, its just a given that the mechanic F'ed up.

Zippee

Who is telling you that there is no time limit on labor warranty?

Zippee

What source?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

which is the reason why he tightened the bolt so much, so it did not come loose

and what is the difference between a lug nut and that bolt, it is still ethier a nut or bolt that needs proper torque, and if any thing a lug nut is actually easier to tighten to the right torque then that bolt, just use a torque stick with a impact, where that bolt is in a tighter spot so kinda harder to get a torque wrench down there

so the shop F***ed up, it just happen to be a little bit more expensive F*** up then just a set of rotors, so you are complaining (just saying )

but yeah the shop should own up, but is not legelly required by anything (their warrenty was WELL over)

pits200

There is obviously a time limit on labor warranty if the job is done properly. This is arguing the fact that the job technically was not done properly in the first place.

And it's my attorney who deals with negligence. Negligence doesn't only occur when people get physically hurt, it also applies to situations such as this.

What if you one of your family members was driving a car that shut down while going 65mph such as in my case and they were injured, I'm sure you wouldn't dare blame the mechanic who was at fault for not using a torque wrench while doing his job.

pits200

You do realize that tighter isn't always better when it comes to bolts. That's why there are things called torque specs, I hope you don't think tightening something as hard as you can is the proper way to work on secure something when using a bolt. If so, you might want to re-think that idea because you are going to end up snapping a lot of bolts off.

pits200

Let me ask you this question, lets say the mechanic used the wrong kind of bolt and it failed because of that.. Would he be at fault outside the warranty period if it failed then.

pits200

Lol, so you're telling me that because the bolt was "harder" to get a torque wrench into there that he has an excuse as to why he didn't want to tighten it to the proper specs. If I'm doing the job on my own, Im allowed to do that and take shortcuts, but if you're getting paid to do work, you better make sure you follow the book.

HAHA, I soooo hope he uses that defense.

CL-S progression 01

iTrader: (2)

naturally u are pissed off with ur predicament (as any of us would be) but honestly bro, I don't think u have a case worth fighting... i.e u may spend more than u gain.

ur basically arguing over one bolt... shit happenz man. this time it's on ur plate unfortunately.

PPL get fucked over for much worse... including me, so don't feel ur the hrdest done by JOE on the block, cause ur behind par (fortunately for u)

just remember it could always be worse.... do what u can , yes , but don't shoot for the stars if you may never get off the ground (i u know what i mean)

pits200

I'm honestly surprised by everyone's answers. I have 3 lawyers in my family and all of them say the same thing.

"This case is absolutely simple.."

1.) I have the proof of over torquing
2.) I have the sworn affidavit from the Acura Dealership

Seriously, I hope people don't take things so easily when you get f'ed over.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

but you also got the potental of the bolt working loose too since it is only a single bolt, but yeah there is also a thing called blue loc-tite to help prevent that, but still being removeable

that was the correct bolt

he still should have torqued it properly, but there are alot of butcher techs out there, that don't care, in that if it is too hard they move on, and
maybe if people were willing to pay for the true value of our work , (tools are expensive [and scan tools have to updated almost yearly], and you need alot for multiple makes, and need to keep up on training for the lastest electronics and stuff)
techs would be more willing to do it the right way

pits200

Ha, come on, techs make plenty of money for blue collar labor. They bill longer than it actually takes to do the job, so don't give me the pity story, lol.

My point is, if you're doing someone a favor that is one thing, but if you're getting paid to do a job, it is expected from start to finish that each step is done according to the manual.

Im a cpa and what would you think if I forgot to get you all your money back on your taxes because I took a shortcut and used an excuse that I have to keep paying for continuing education classes.

The point bout the correct bolt doesn't matter, it was a point that saying, if you aren't going to do everything properly, you might as well use the wrong bolt.


Can I ask how many times you've heard of a bolt failing on a light load bearing part? It wasn't a support bolt, it was only holding on the timing belt tensioner, not a very heavy item if you ask me.