Chopsie

True, but the argument many have stated is the J series being more refined than the VQ.
I know we're talking power here, but still

EricL

Cam is not the only factor.

My previous '92 Maxima SE (DOHC 3.0L) Auto would get trashed by the '92 Maxima GXE off the line, and the off-line torque was, IMO, much better. The intake charging -- a relatively narrow passage for good cylinder filling and velocity charging and "truck-like" cam profile made for a good shove off the line. I’d get smoked by a SOHC/non-SE version of the same car.

The intake size and length, gearing, and other factors all contribute to the feel of the car.

I'm not exactly sure which 3.0L Infiniti engine you’re talking about that makes 10 less max hp and 10 more max torque than the CLS' 3.2L. There's a Nissan engine they dropped in the Skyline that seems close to your parameters, but are you sure you aren't talking about the 3.5 liter version(s) of the VQ?

Just changing the stroke in the 3.2L J series -- like TypeR -- will bump the flywheel torque to close to 260 lb-ft and will rip the tires in 2nd gear (with the 5-speed). Rod ratio and stroking due amazing things. On the Shelby forums, there are lots of people that started out with a 351 Windsor and stroked them to 408 CI (or other similar sizes) and the results were amazing. A buddy has a ride yesterday in a replicar Shelby Cobra with a stroked 351 (408) and was scared for his life. The car was doing 130 at the end of a short onramp. You can put the car in the next higher gear and accelerate as well as the pre-stroked version.

I had a 3.0L VQ and it was a nice engine, too bad the gearing in the old 4-speed auto SUCKED and I had every little 4-banger blowing my doors off the line.

Honda as always put a lot of emphasis on fuel economy combined with good top-end power.

As more of the hybrids come on line -- see the new Accord V6 Hybrid -- you'll see the electric motor being used as the torque-kicker. Electric motors generate max torque at 0 RPM.

As more people get full variable lift and variable duration cams in their engines with "trick induction," adaptive spark, higher compression, newer gearboxes (CVT, etc), combined with electric assist, expect great gas mileage and V8-like torque from medium sized V6s.

F23A4

Except for the 2000 I30 (vs the 2000 Maxima), all I30s (1G and 2G) had the same power as the Maxima (ditto for the 02-03 Maxima & I35). In 2000 the I30 had 5hp more than the Maxima but no more torque.

proaudio22

I do realize that cams aren't the only piece of the puzzle. I was just reffering to the whole low cam setting is best for low end power thing. It's nice to think that VTEC gives you this best of both worlds perfomance, but in reality I think it actually hurts the Honda's performace as it's not really designed for that. Gas mileage is great but if I really was concerned about it I would have bought a 4 banger.

My mom had a 98 I30, and I have a 3.0CL with the J30. The car did have horrid gear ratios (horribly slow in the 1/4 mile) but that first press on the gas def showed off the motor. The 5spd version is better, a buddy of mine had one for a few years. Another case of a great motor and a shitty transmission.

What I want to see in hybrids will probably not happen for while - everyone is too conerned with getting mpg numbers down. Honda is too chicken to do it right. More than likely they will dial back the gas engine or use a smaller one in conjuction with the electric unit - which will net basically a decent V6 now, only with better gas mileage. :whooptydo:

EricL

Hard to make a judgement about all of the VTEC's. There is also the updated version that controls lift and duration, there are the DOHC versions, and so on.

IMO, I am not ready to blame the lower lobes for any low-end power issues. It's easy to just change the bore/stroke relationship -- and consequent change in rod ratio -- and the timing, intake design, and other issue all impact low-end torque.

IMO, the flat torque curve shows that the cams are doing a pretty good job. An updated system with full control over overlap and duration would help to bump the torque as would a system that changed the induction length with RPM.

Ok, so I see you were comparing 3.0 to 3.0....

As I mentioned, my DOHC 3.0L would get smacked by the SOHC 3.0L off the line, and this was NOT the case in the 1/4 mile or on the freeway.

Well, I suppose if you were expecting 400 HP and the same gas mileage, you didn't get what you wanted.

OTOH, your prediction about downsizing the engine, etc is not going to get you a Nostradamus Award.

Look at the new Road and Track. The Accord hybrid, while only available in an auto, shows improved performance and gas figures.
The engine produces the same power and torque, but gets an additional "shove" from the pancake motor.

They lightened the car to compensate for the batteries, etc. IN short, the 0..60 and 1/4 mile performance are improved. The gas economy figures also look impressive.

http://automobiles.honda.com/info/ne...=Accord+Hybrid

http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=26012

SiGGy

that's how I have always felt. And the extra overdrive 5th gear

importtuner

The new Accord Hybrid is crazy!! It has an electric motor pumping out 15hp and 100lb-ft of torque paired with 240 v-6 engine. Electric motors produce torque instantaneously. Because of the electric motor and added low-end grunt, the sedan does a 0-60 in 6.7 seconds and gets 37 mpg on the highway; almost 600 miles to the tank! I foresee the advant of electric motors in production cars in the future!

blader

6.7 second 0-60 aint bad considering I remember the salesman that sold me my CL telling me the auto CL-S does it in 6.5.

I agree, with the first wave of hybrid technology putting out 100ft\lbs of torque, the technology looks very promising. And the fact that the motor can put out the torque instantaneously is a major plus, and opens up lots of possibilities ..

in the future as hybrid technology matures we may see performance models coming with special hybird electric motors to get instantaneous torque for quick lanches and great low end performance using hardly any gas, while maintaing that VTEC top end

there may be hybrid next gen Type S's ripping quarter miles in the 13's and still getting 600mi to a tank

EricL

Excerpt from Road and Track's December 2004 article on the 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid:

The performance and oomph are improved, but I'm not too sure about 6.7 seconds in the 0-60. An 80-lb driver, near-zero gas load, sea-level altitude, and nice cold temps would help lower the times.

Chopsie

Very interesting about the AV6 Hybrid, I had no idea it was making those numbers