I've recently been frequenting the TL-S discussion at acura-tl.com and these discussions since getting my '02 TLS, and I have to say that I've learned quite a bit! In fact, most of the knowledge that I've acquired about drag racing/racing in general has come from the BMW X vs. Acura X topics -- or some of the other racing topics. I'm not knowledgeable about much when it comes to the specifics, so here goes: As in the topic -- why is a 5-speed manual -- say in the CL-S -- better than a 5-speed automatic transmission?

This will help me understand why a BMW M3 can "beat" a CL-S.

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2002 TL-S

 

b/c there is less parasitic drag from a manuall, i asume it is from the lack of a tourque converter, also in the case of the cl b/c 4th gear is a very tall gear

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2001 acura cl type-s
comming soon
2000 accord v6 sedan
1997 4runner
1992 camaro
1993 volvo 850
"Tell me kid, have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moon light"

 

A manual has a direct mechanical link (gears) driving through the transmission. The automatic couples through the torque converter with hydraulic fluid driving the output gears, hence, a 5% or so loss in efficiency. That's why a 330i or even a 328i can getcha also.

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CLS Blk/Blk, Wife ripping off

 

The manual is direct -- yes. The torque converter when NOT locked looses power.

There is also a ton of pumps, clutch packs, valves, and other goodies that suck up power. You don't have all of this junk in a "pure" manual.

A sequential manual (coming soon to your cars) will be a POM (Plain Old Manual) with an electronically activated clutch (and a bunch of electronics to make it all work). But the basic "guts" will be a manual. It is just as efficient as a manual. Someone could argue that the electronic actuation would waste power, but the clutch is like a spring, meaning the energy could be recovered with improved electronics.

So, the Automatic transmission looses power in the torque converter when it is in non-lockup mode, but it doesn't loose power in lockup mode. The torque converter also doubles as an additional flywheel, sucking up additional power in the form of rotational inertia. Finally, all of the moving parts, valves, and other "accessories" in the auto tranny sucks up power.

There is more to the power loss than just the torque converter.

BTW -- even manuals can be made more efficient with different cut gears. Non-helical cut gears make quite a racket, but stand more power and make more noise.

So, there is more to all of this...


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Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

 

You forgetting the "lock-up" clutch in the torque converter. Once our cars are over about 3000 rpm, the clutch locks up. It even locks up when going down hill.

Off-topic (BMW vs CL-S):

I think the bigger problem with CL-S vs. 330i is the forward-to-rear weight transfer that occurs during acceleration. The BMW, with it RWD, is getting more weight transfered to the rear driving wheels for more traction, while the CL-S is actualy having the weight lifted off the front wheels reducting traction.

When you accelerated the front goes up and the rear squats (yes/no)?

Wouldn't you want the push (squat) to be acting on the driven wheels (as in the case of the BMW)?

When you in snow, there is very little weight transfer, so the overwhelming amount of weight on the front wheels more than compensates for the puny acceleration on snow and ice. (That is one of the reasons the FWD car will beat a BMW (or other RWD car) in the snow. (There are some scenarios where this changes a bit, but hopefully, this will do for now.)

Finally, I sure think a CL-S would look pretty stupid with 245/45s in front and 215s in the back. There are some FWD cars that put bigger tires in the back, just to keep the look nice (sorry, I was reading an article and forgot the exact tuner that did this.)


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Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

 

Coming to our cars soon? How soon? I'd love to trade up for a 6 speed sequential. I'd imagine the response time is much quicker than our current sport shift right?

 

Eric,
I am surprised no one has questioned whether Acura will do:
Manual "front wheel drive" OR

Manual "Rear wheel drive" ????? Is one better than the other ? Why hasn't anyone questioned this ?

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2001 CL Type S Black/Ebony w/NAVI, PIAA bulbs, Tinted windows, JL Sub-woofer/Fosgate 250 watt amp, otherwise pure stock
1998 Accord Coupe EX-V6
Black Currant Pearl, PIAA bulbs, tinted windows, Fosgate 500 watt amp, Eclipes 6X9's,JL Sub-woofer, otherwise PURE stock !

 

Hmmm.... Eric, maybe you could start a new trend??

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01 CL-S NightHawk Black/Ebony Bowling Ball Interior

 

You noticed I said soon not x-years and x-months. The high end cars (Ferraris) have 'em. The BMW M3 (2002) is reported to be coming with one.

Question with a question time. How long did it take for CD-ROM burners to become commonplace?



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Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

 

I'm not Acura, so I don't have a clue. But, the front engine is a transverse mount, so I would think that we are talking about a major redesign to go RWD.



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Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

 

So far nobody mentioned the fact that a manual tranny weighs far less than an automatic tranny. Weight definitely plays a role.

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dead CL-S and M3

 

Ok, I get you. Got over-excited for nothing, but that would definitely be an improvement I'd want in any future car I may own.

 

If you think that I'm going to put those stock sh*t tires on my rear -- forget about it. I also think big tires in front and not it the back, look like sh*t. (I don't mind so much on a FWD drag racer -- wining is what counts.)

AND, I don't need to start a "new brutality in design" trend, thank you.




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Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

 

Thanks for all the info -- it definitely cleared up my question.

I heard of the "paddle-shift" in the new '02 M3 -- and from the way you've described it, it is the sequential manual shift that you mentioned. So, with this type of shifter -- sequential -- all you have do is what? Shift the stick from one gate to another? .. w/o having to pump the clutch? -- equaling faster shifts?



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2002 TL-S

 

Yep -- ever looked at the diagrams in the Helms... I pity the poor people that have to work on them. They remind me of mechanical calculators (of all sorts...).




------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic