jimcol711

"Money isn’t the biggest issue for me not doing it.
Having the engine last 100,000 PLUS miles is."

-Shawn S


this seems to be the feelings of more than just shawn.....and id like to know why?? why should we be concerned that the CL-S motor couldnt handle an extra 60-70 whp??? is there something wrong with our engines? is there something wrong with the stock internals?? are we all just worried about reliability, warranty?? well why?

look at the IS300....there are guys running huge turbo setups with all stock internals, no worries, no reliability issues, no problems....is lexus/toyota doing something that eases these peoples minds? are they just careless with all the boosting?


and this goes for the clutch as well?? why arent IS300 owners all nervous about their clutches on the 5-speed trannys? again, it seems that there are no worries, but when it comes to the CL-S guys, there is every excuse in the book...the car is to new, i dont want to blow an engine, i dont want to blow a clutch, etc...come on...is there anyone that really thinks a LOW BOOST system like comptechs supercharger could BLOW a CL-S motor??? i dont beleive that for a second...maybe if there were an alternate, DIME size pulley for it that upped the boost to 250 whp!! ive never seen a group of car owners be so shy to go all out on their cars like CL-S 6-speeders..i hope that at least SOMEONE has the balls to put a S/C on soon once the automatic CL-S version comes out...theres tons more auto CL-S guys that seem to be willing to go for it.

IS300 guys just boost and boost and boost....they have guys legitimetly beating porches, M5, etc....and none of them are worried about warranties or anything like that...

Im not saying ill be jumping into the S/C when it comes out but my reasons are PURELY and 100% financial...ive got enough credit card debt for a life time and im struggling to pay it down...i can assure you that if i werent in such credit debt, i wouldnt hesitate for one second to buy it because im an enthusiast, as are many of you, and i long for the opportunity to make my CL-S unique, FAST and have fun with it.

for you guys that have the money or dont care about the credit debt...whats your REAL excuses...

are you all trying to say that the CL-S cant handle even LOW LOW boost like this?? or that the clutch will fail?? that speaks pretty poorly of your faith and the overall build quality in acura/honda, seeing as how toyota 3.0 motors can be boosted to 900 hp with no problems whatsoever...

allmotor_2000

I don't think you should generalize "all 6-speeders", plus it might be such that the 'limited' number of 6-speed owners here might all be a little cautious in dumping $4.5K on the S/C. I wouldn't spend $4.5K on the S/C... but I'd build my turbo-kit for that money because I get much more bang-for-the-buck and a much more sophisticated setup.

The ratio of auto:manual is probably like 10:1 here... so you are going to have 10x the number of interested auto folks than 6-speeder folks

No flame intended here... just adding my opinion to your thoughts.

allmotor_2000

By the way... I completely agree (as I had posted in the other thread related to this) that a low-boost application is not going to do anything to these motors.

Nitin

iTrader: (1)

Only thing I'm worried about is whether or not our transmissions can handle the SC. But if I can get my dealer to install and warranty it, then I'd have no problem buying it whenever it's released for the autos.

Scrib

1) Tranny - We all know it's a ticking time bomb
2) Warranty - People catch hell for a CAI. I don't even wanna know what'll happen with a S/C. Granted every dealer is different and we're technicaly covered by the MM law, but I can live without the hassle I'd almost certainly get.


And then there's money. Power and speed is nice, but 4K plus install can go towards so many other things. Invest for down payment on a house, kids education, nice vacation. My CLS is speedy enough for me...

Shawn S

Show me an IS-300 with 100K on the clock and an original clutch.
I don’t think anyone has really run one this far and proven this as fact.

I didn’t buy my CL-S to become a 1/4 mile street monster.
A luxury car has its limitations. Weight being one of them.
If speed were my only concern I’d be driving a late model 12-second Mustang that can be easily built for under 30K.
But it wouldn’t be a good daily driver and it wouldn’t be too comfortable on a road trip down to Florida either.

Shawn S

Zootking

The funny thing about the IS300 guys is that they arent doing their turbos on the stock motor...most of them have swapped for the 2JZ-GTE motor, which we all know is the Supra motor. As far as our engines, Ive proven that ours can handle the extra 75 or now 100 extra HP, but ive already noticed my clutch starting to slip. I was all about the S/C when I first heard about it, but now that I have my Zex kit, forget the charger....i think instead of that this spring im gonna opt for the 3.5 upgrade and call it quits. Its enough now that i can run with M3's and Vettes, if i want a "race" car im gonna fork over the $$$ and buy a used Supra and hook it up.....I love my CL, but there's only so much we can do.

darrinb

if i had the cash i'd do it, that would be weird having cheap ass obx headers and a 5k blower

power3dfx

some thought about the is300. that car is built very solid AND anyone who tunes them knows its reliability. the engines on the is3 are inline 6's as you all know, and it is similar in many ways to the supra motor.
two simple answers that i think applies to real owners giving real excuses.
1) The blower is available for only a small market, and it is not anything extravagant or special. For the power it gives, i would say the price should be cut in half to have any appeal at all.
2) Like all CL/TL enthusiasts, we all like to tune, but keep the money factor surfaced at all times. Think about it this way - i bought a TL Type S because i wanted performance and features for a blowout price, correct? Now if someone came to me and said we will put a blower in for 4k or 5k, it would have to put down some impressive numbers before i'd consider it.
If i was going to spend that much on the comptech blower, that would not be a very economical reasoned choice. Heck if i searched for a VALUE car, why shouldnt i search for a value upgrade, hence the uprising popularity of the OBX.
One last thing, the ONLY reason the comptech headers sold for about 1k and became popular is due to its performance attributes. It puts down impressive numbers and although it doesnt have much value, it definately is a better value than the blower.
Assuming manufacturing quality equal, i prefer to follow the HP per dollar ratio when purchasing the upgrades.
Quick example: blower gives 50-60 whp cost: 4k
headers give a min. of 25 whp. cost: 1k
4 X 25= 100+ wheel hp for $4k
I know it sounds stupid to think of it this way, but if you think about it, the comptech headers are giving much better performance per dollar value. Now the obx is a whole nother story, that is value to the MAX!
All writing above is my opinion, if you want to criticize, all i ask is that you be mature in your responses.
HAPPY NEW YEARS TO ALL!

jimcol711

my main question is how come people are questioning the stability and reliability of our engines and trannys??? sure, the auto trannys suck ass and snap like toothpicks, but "supposedly" acura may do a recall and has contracted a new company to design a TRUELY FIXED and ORIGINAL tranny to replace our automatic shit boxes...and as far as the 6 speed is concerned, everyone was running around saying its bulletproof but now that a blower is out and puts an extra 70 hp down, everyone is scared to do it....all money issues aside, id like to know why there is doubt in our motors....do you see the GTP guys doubting their motors?? fuck no!! the GTP stock puts down like 190-200 hp and there are guys dynoing 300 PLUS hp on stock engine internals and STOCK transmissions....same thing for IS300 guys, sure a few have swapped to a supra motor....but MOST turbo guys are using stock engines and trannys.....same thing with integra/civic owners, etc....most just bolt on a S/C or a turbo and go.....but it seems there is little faith in the 3.2 type s motor to handle that boost judging by the fact that everyone is scared for their warranty....hmmm....ill say it again, if i personally didnt have as much credit debt as i have now, id without question, get a 0% credit card and go for the blower on the automatic if it ever comes out....but its purely my financial situation preventing me from boosting my motor...not a fear of losing warranty or breaking internals.

CLpower

clutches are expendable, and stock clutches tend to suck anyways

CLpower

actually, from what I've read, very few have dropped in the true supra TT motors. Don't know why, it'd be a no brainer to me to drop it in. They stick w/ what they got which is the N/A supra motor which responds very well to turbo upgrades.

Shawn S

Maybe so, but they cost 800 to 1000 to replace at the dealer.
My Legend Coupe made it to 110,000 with the original clutch and I
I’m hoping for the same with THIS car.

Shawn S

CLpower

110K, damn impressive shawn. And who would trust the dealer to replace a clutch Fuckers can't do anything right.

Shawn S

110K on the Legend
Before that 92K on my 88 Daytona Shelby-Z when it was traded
80+ on the wife’s Integra right now and it’s still going strong

CLpower

well you just answered my questions shawn. You are way to nice to your cars!

scalbert

There is no concern about the engine handling this modest amount of boost. The drivetrain can handle it just fine. But you have to realize that most here bought this car as comfortable transportation with a sporting side; not as a speed machine. This reason alone would negate many here to waste that amount of money on something that isn't the best foundation for an all out speed demon.

In my case I planned on getting it but that has been delayed as my priorities have shifted.

jimcol711

scalbert, i understand your position (again, i hope all goes well and i wish the best to you and your soon-to-be larger family!!)

obviously, the CL-S is a heavy beast and not that great to try to be an all-out street monster. however, lets consider the following:

if acura came out with a 2004 CL-R next year that had comptech headers and supercharger, rated at 375 hp at the crank, putting down 300 at the wheels. also including 235/45/17 ZR rated tires on 8" wide rims, and going for a price of say, 36,990 NOT including navigation (navi would put it to 38,990) i bet it wouldnt not only sell like HOTCAKES but many of us curent CL-S owners would jump ship in a heartbeat to get a beast like that...G35 coupe owners would be jumping ship, 350Z owners would be jumping ship, acura would step to the fore-front of high power coupes and gain a shitload of respect for being so ballsy, we would all bow down to owners of the Type R CL's and all try to fit it in our budget to own one. the 375hp CL-R would be the pinnacle of semi-luxury and performance....

but hmm...you just said that this car is supposed to be simply nothing more than comfortable transportation with a competitive amount of power....i dunno, its like we are saying one thing and doing another here because now we have the option to MAKE THAT HAPPEN for us!!

why are we so worred about the warranty?? what the hell goes wrong on our motors anyways?? i seriously beleive that even if dealers would void your engine warranty because of the blower, we's still DEFINATELY be able to take the car in for shit like rattles, brakes, suspension problems, bad leather seats, faulty seat heaters, etc...basically all problems unrelated to the engine. and if you think about it, who here has had problems with their actual engine besides the actuator failing?? and no dealer could blame the actuator on the superchager...i dont think the warranty issue is NEARLY as people are trying to make it out to be...so what you put a blower on your car...you throw a piston rod through the hood of your car, ok, your fucked...but still, that blower should not, and i beleive, COULD NOT completely void any part of the warranty.


...people say things like:

"oh the CL-S cant handle that much power"
"im worried about my warranty"
"its too heavy to be fast"

but in the same breath we are all dumping hundreds, if not thousands of dollars into headers, intakes, suspension mods, v tec controllers, lightweight wheels, etc...if these cars are such shitty platforms to mod than why does this forum exist?? why do we all have page-long signatures listing our modifications?


at the end of the day, i know there are quite a few of us who have spend 4,000 on modding our CL-S and MORE....but it seems we are turned off by the thought of spending 4,000 in one shot..for one mod. i know id rather spend 4k on a blower than on some silly rims or stereo equipment...you wanna talk about depreciating value, car stereo equipment loses value like a home computer does and anyone that ever makes 1/2 their money back on rims is lucky...considering how scratched they inevitably get...i would be willing to bet that a used CL-S comptech supercharger package in good condition would easily command 3,000 in the "black market forum" i dont see how its such a waste of money. sure the up-front cost is high, and installation probably isnt cheap either, but at the end of the day, youll have a VERY powerful and RARE car that someone would buy in a heartbeat AS-IS or you could have the supercharger taken off and sell it and get back probably AT LEAST 75% of your money back...thats not so bad now is it??

Shawn S

Sounds to me like Jim is going to be mailing in the next pre-approved Credit Card application that comes in the mail.
What the HELL……What’s one more gonna hurt !!!

Shawn S

jimcol711

hahah, how do you think i got in the trouble i am now with credit cards?!?!

goddamn OBX headers
goddamn infinity basslink
goddamn DVD collecting
goddamn leather furniture.


hahah, oh well, ya only live once, but i am smart enough not to get ANOTHER 4k in credit debt...im at a comfortable 6k in credit debt...hahaha....its shitty, but i know people who are worse off than that..i send in liek 200 bucks a month and practically never use the card but still cant seem to chip away at that balance...another 4k would just KILL me....i am, however going to be moving to a cheaper place this summer, my GF and i decided that living on the lakefront is nice and all but its expensive as shit, we want to cut our rent by AT LEAST 300 bucks a month, and its going to be easy, as long as we understand we cant stay downtown on the lakefront. maybe then id consider getting a S/C because i could sink that extra 300 bucks a month into paying back the S/C credit balance....

Red Rider

I completely agree with you. Alot of these people who don't want to spend another 4-5K on a "30K" car spent thousands on a nav that's worth $400 on trade now or big $$ on heavy Bling Bling wheels, or huge expensive systems. Why now are they so apprehensive ? Power aint cheap

darrinb

i'll wait for obx to make a blower for like 1000, same price as the comptech headers, lol ,

jim, you would have to ditch the obx's before u get the comptech blower

bullaculla

I'm not too worried about the car. just the cash and the time my car will be down. I'd like to do the S/C and the headers at the same time. and I do have other cars to drive. I'm just waiting to see some others with the S/C and hear what they have to say before dropping $4000-$5000 on the S/C. plus I have to worry about recon and safety checks and crap like that. I have already tried to talk to the service managers and the general manager at the only Acura dealer in Hawaii, and they said it will definately void the warranty. and they won't even touch it! not even the headers! but with that kind of mods, I would expect to pay for anything that breaks. Hopefully I can order one this year!

EGH

The IS-300 engine is derived from the Supra Twin Turbo's that's why the upgrade there is logical, they can just mimic the Supra set up it is fundamentally the same engine...

Not the case with the CLS. The CLs was build to spin not be boosted, different engine design. There aren't many superchared NSXs out there either are there??? With the proper ventilation equipment the 3.2L will spin over 300 bhp. Who needs a supercharger.

I ran down a late model 911 Carrera on I-15 in CT the other day full power in 3'rd gear around a bend, the limited slip working it's magic...he flashed his lights in respect as he brought up the rear....that's a $65,000 automobile - I'm good where I am. Honda didn't dominate F1 for 10 years by mistake dudes.

Juker008

Are u quotign me from one of my last posts ?

...people say things like:





WOA..................





Well........Said..........




Juker008

Juker008

Ok Guys,

About the low boost in the CT SC. Now I don't know much or even anything about IS300s or the "new Neon's" internals. But has anyone taken into consideration the high compression ratio of our engines. There is a formula for calculating the total compression output when u factor in the compression of the piston and boost levels. That is why a boosted car that has a compression ratio of 8.5 can take an easy 15psi boost. Now u start increasing the compression ratio everything begins to increase. So to have everything in relation to each other, by adding more compression u need to lower the boost. Or by adding more boost u thus need to lower the compression ratio. With that said it scares me to read all these guys running nitrous setups. Especially "DRY" and hp shot of 100+ . When people go to nitrous thier only mind-set is that never to go lean. Well that is true but they never take into consideration the cilinder pressure levels that are claculated by factoring boost and compression ratio.


I hope that this give some insight as to boosting applications. And clarify why there is such little boost out of the CT SC. Ohhh and nor am I condoneing CT's FKin outragious prices.




Juker008

DtEW

I know this thread is not intended for me, but I think I can shed some light at least on our side of the aisle.

As others have already noted, the engine that comes in the IS300 is the 2JZ-GE, which is a close sibling to the 2JZ-GTE that comes on Supras and have been proven to accept very large amounts of boost dependably. The 2JZ-GTE is pretty much a legendary engine for tolerating boost (along with the Nissan RB26) within the Japanese car tuner community. Everything that matters in terms of withstanding boost, by which I mean the crank, the block, and the rods, are nearly identical to what comes on the Supra Turbo, including construction, except for the lack of oil passages for the OEM turbo and oil squirters. The pistons are more domed for the higher compression of NA use in the 2JZ-GE. But otherwise the strength for tolerating boost is identical to the 2JZ-GTE that comes in the Supra.

Both the Toyota 2JZ and Nissan RB26 blocks are iron, closed-deck designs. In case you're unaware of what that means, here's some photos from a N/A (open deck) and a F/I (closed deck) Impreza engine:




As you might gather, the closed-deck design supports the cylinder from distortion at high pressures much better than the open-deck design.

Also unique to the I6 configuration, both the 2JZ and RB26 have seven main bearings for the crankshaft instead of the five main bearings that are dictated by the V6 configuration.

So basically, the engines in the IS300 (and the N/A Supra, and the SC300/GS300) were originally designed with forced induction in mind, but slightly modified for natural aspiration use. To "un-mod" it for forced-induction duty is easy and doesn't at all exceed the parameters that it was originally engineered for.

In terms of our tranny, our autotranny comes from a higher-duty source, namely the GS series and the LS430. Our autotrannies are used in the GS430, which as you might know puts out 300hp and 325ft-lbs of torque. Aftermarket tuners have have enough experience with these trannies to determine that they are good for up to 350rwhp without any modifications, and I believe ~450rwhp with valve body work (the tranny is fine, but the stock valve body needs to be reworked to provide enough pressure to shift :P ). I'm not familiar with the limits of the manual tranny, but it is undoubtedly significantly higher. Even beyond those limits, we can bolt-in alternate transmissions, including the ones from both Supras.

The axle, rear-end, and halfshafts are so far proving indestructible. We have not had any hint of a failure even on 600rwhp examples.

Finally, all the pioneering for F/I for the 2JZ-GE and trannies have been established by the N/A supra community and the SC300/GS-series communities. Everthing has been proven already, so nothing we F/I is terribly original nor risky.

So this is why we can F/I without worry. Whether you guys can or not, only time will tell, assuming you can get people to risk it. It always hurts to be a pioneer. I'm acutally figuring that you guys will probably have a better time trying to pursue a severe N/A tune along the lines of what some Japanese enthusiasts do to the NSX.

power3dfx

juker, you obviously know well about toyota. i wish every company followed their reliability skills, the lexus gs,sc,etc are built like rocks, honda is also good, but lately they need to revise their plans a bit if they want to compete or beat toyota.

Juker008

Do u actually mean that I know my shit about Hondas ? Cause really I don't know jack about Toyota. I was just elaborating on a topic that is usually discussed around the water cooler. It is very crutial to calculate cylinder pressure or else things go.



Juker008