what do yu guys think of a lower temp thermostat?
#41
Suzuka Master
Re: Re: what do yu guys think of a lower temp thermostat?
Originally posted by Wires
Has anyone checked the stock thermostat temperature? I started looking around, and nobody here has a listing for a thermostat for a CL-S (no 2001+), so it's pretty much impossible to find out what is supposed to go in there (temperature wise) (Acura parts don't know as well).
Did some reaseach, found the AutoZone website, and found out the thermostat in a 98+ V6 Accord is the same for the CL-S. According to the Dyno video from VTEC.NET, the car ran at 200F, and then they dumped in a 180F thermostat, and she picked up 6HP, 7 lbft of torque.
Sounds cool, so I called around town, and found 170F and 180F thermostats at the regular parts stores (FYI: Motor Rad PN#302-170 and 302-180 for the 170F and 180F thermostats). I picked up a 180F since winter is coming.
So, I drained a bunch of antifreeze, and pulled out the OEM unit. The OEM unit is a waaaaayy better looking piece, and mine is stamped 78 degrees C. That works out to 172F?!?! WTF? I thought it was supposed to be 195ish? Long story short, I put the OEM back in.![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Has anyone else (those who put in Spoons or Mugens) checked what they pulled out?
P.S. I have a '03 6 speed.
P.P.S. Honda Antifreeze is SUPER expensive shit! In Canada it's $18 for a pre-mixed gallon!!!!!!! :o :o
Has anyone checked the stock thermostat temperature? I started looking around, and nobody here has a listing for a thermostat for a CL-S (no 2001+), so it's pretty much impossible to find out what is supposed to go in there (temperature wise) (Acura parts don't know as well).
Did some reaseach, found the AutoZone website, and found out the thermostat in a 98+ V6 Accord is the same for the CL-S. According to the Dyno video from VTEC.NET, the car ran at 200F, and then they dumped in a 180F thermostat, and she picked up 6HP, 7 lbft of torque.
Sounds cool, so I called around town, and found 170F and 180F thermostats at the regular parts stores (FYI: Motor Rad PN#302-170 and 302-180 for the 170F and 180F thermostats). I picked up a 180F since winter is coming.
So, I drained a bunch of antifreeze, and pulled out the OEM unit. The OEM unit is a waaaaayy better looking piece, and mine is stamped 78 degrees C. That works out to 172F?!?! WTF? I thought it was supposed to be 195ish? Long story short, I put the OEM back in.
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Has anyone else (those who put in Spoons or Mugens) checked what they pulled out?
P.S. I have a '03 6 speed.
P.P.S. Honda Antifreeze is SUPER expensive shit! In Canada it's $18 for a pre-mixed gallon!!!!!!! :o :o
Here is thermo specs (it's under the Prelude):
"This thermostat has the operating temperature set lower than normal. It prevents engine power loss by minimizing rapid water-temperature rises under harsh conditions such as during circuit driving. The use of a flow-control-type valve prevents hunting, thereby achieving rapid stabilization of the water temperature (the engine warms up within a short period).
Operating temperature: 68°C (STD.: 76~80°C)
Full-throttle acceleration temperature: 83°C (STD.: 90°C)
PIC:
![](http://www.kingmotorsports.com/images/engine/thermostat_small.jpg)
I was told that this was "one" of the 80-degree C thermostats for the Accord. (Someone else said this should fit the CLS, but...)
AND
HELMS (2001 CL/CLS Service Manual) page 10-6:
Thermostat Test
....
....
STANDARD THERMOSTAT
Lift height: above 10.0 mm
Starts opening 169 - 176F (76-80C)
Fully open: 194F (90C)
Mugen fully open is 83C (181F)
#42
Suzuka Master
Re: Re: what do yu guys think of a lower temp thermostat?
Originally posted by Wires
Has anyone else (those who put in Spoons or Mugens) checked what they pulled out?
Has anyone else (those who put in Spoons or Mugens) checked what they pulled out?
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/produ...de/engine.html
(Yeah, I know it says Prelude...)
P.P.S. Honda Antifreeze is SUPER expensive shit! In Canada it's $18 for a pre-mixed gallon!!!!!!! :o :o
I don't remember paying as much down here, and try to stick with the factory stuff, distilled water, & Water Wetter ...
[b]
SECOND REQUEST:
IF anyone puts the Mugen thermo and/or switch in, can you report back on the fan switch and thermo part #s?
TIA
#43
OK here is my question. And this would pertain to u too TypeR (sell-out u should have bee at Moroso that Fri. night....j/k). Well if it is good to lower the temp in the thermostat. Then what were to happen for us people, down here in the South, where it never freezes. To remove the thermostat all together, throw in a Mugen radiator cap, and Red Line WW. Sure we would have to also do something about the fans. So how bout having the fans run at 160oF. Or if possible all the time? Maybe that might be too much for the fans to do, operate all the time, but would this type of setup work?
Also can u guys make a list of parts for the people here in the south and for people who live up north with climate changes throught the year.
Juker008
Also can u guys make a list of parts for the people here in the south and for people who live up north with climate changes throught the year.
Juker008
#44
Originally posted by Juker008
OK here is my question. And this would pertain to u too TypeR (sell-out u should have bee at Moroso that Fri. night....j/k). Well if it is good to lower the temp in the thermostat. Then what were to happen for us people, down here in the South, where it never freezes. To remove the thermostat all together, throw in a Mugen radiator cap, and Red Line WW. Sure we would have to also do something about the fans. So how bout having the fans run at 160oF. Or if possible all the time? Maybe that might be too much for the fans to do, operate all the time, but would this type of setup work?
Also can u guys make a list of parts for the people here in the south and for people who live up north with climate changes throught the year.
Juker008
OK here is my question. And this would pertain to u too TypeR (sell-out u should have bee at Moroso that Fri. night....j/k). Well if it is good to lower the temp in the thermostat. Then what were to happen for us people, down here in the South, where it never freezes. To remove the thermostat all together, throw in a Mugen radiator cap, and Red Line WW. Sure we would have to also do something about the fans. So how bout having the fans run at 160oF. Or if possible all the time? Maybe that might be too much for the fans to do, operate all the time, but would this type of setup work?
Also can u guys make a list of parts for the people here in the south and for people who live up north with climate changes throught the year.
Juker008
For fuel economy reasons, you're probably going to want to run at least a 160 F thermostat though.
As for the fans, the less they run the better. When their spinning, they're sucking HP from the engine (via the alternator). Normally, the fans won't be running when cruising on the highway. The airflow through the rad should be better than the fans. They are needed when idling at the lights....
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#46
Re: Re: Re: what do yu guys think of a lower temp thermostat?
Originally posted by EricL
Here is thermo specs (it's under the Prelude):
I was told that this was "one" of the 80-degree C thermostats for the Accord. (Someone else said this should fit the CLS, but...)
AND
HELMS (2001 CL/CLS Service Manual) page 10-6:
Thermostat Test
....
....
STANDARD THERMOSTAT
Lift height: above 10.0 mm
Starts opening 169 - 176F (76-80C)
Fully open: 194F (90C)
Mugen fully open is 83C (181F)
Here is thermo specs (it's under the Prelude):
I was told that this was "one" of the 80-degree C thermostats for the Accord. (Someone else said this should fit the CLS, but...)
AND
HELMS (2001 CL/CLS Service Manual) page 10-6:
Thermostat Test
....
....
STANDARD THERMOSTAT
Lift height: above 10.0 mm
Starts opening 169 - 176F (76-80C)
Fully open: 194F (90C)
Mugen fully open is 83C (181F)
Ok, so the deal is the Mugen opens faster. Hmmm... Kind of wish I dunked the OEM in hot water to see how slow it was.
:P
#47
Originally posted by scalbert
Hello Eric, I certainly agree. One additional issue of running a 160 degree stat is that even if the fan switch was set for this range, it is nearly constantly running.
But still, $69 for a 180 stat, must be made out of Titanium.
I need to check the schematic tonight but what I recall we would probably just replace the low speed fand switch. Again, from what I recall there is another switch for high speed fans. But typically when it is hot enough I will have the AC on which triggers the high speed fans.
I will try to re-read the schematic to verify this.
Hello Eric, I certainly agree. One additional issue of running a 160 degree stat is that even if the fan switch was set for this range, it is nearly constantly running.
But still, $69 for a 180 stat, must be made out of Titanium.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
I need to check the schematic tonight but what I recall we would probably just replace the low speed fand switch. Again, from what I recall there is another switch for high speed fans. But typically when it is hot enough I will have the AC on which triggers the high speed fans.
I will try to re-read the schematic to verify this.
The fans do run independantly. One sensor mounts into the thermostat housing (low temp), and the other into the head (high temp).
Normally A/C forces both fans on....
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#48
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Wires
I agree with the Titanium thermostat! Wow!
The fans do run independantly. One sensor mounts into the thermostat housing (low temp), and the other into the head (high temp).
Normally A/C forces both fans on....
I agree with the Titanium thermostat! Wow!
The fans do run independantly. One sensor mounts into the thermostat housing (low temp), and the other into the head (high temp).
Normally A/C forces both fans on....
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#49
Originally posted by Wires
For fuel economy reasons, you're probably going to want to run at least a 160 F thermostat though.
For fuel economy reasons, you're probably going to want to run at least a 160 F thermostat though.
Why is that? How would fuel economy affect this?
Juker008
#50
Originally posted by Juker008
Why is that? How would fuel economy affect this?
Juker008
Why is that? How would fuel economy affect this?
Juker008
Also, I don't know how Acura does it, but in order to "choke" a fuel injected motor, they spray in more fuel when cold. If you are running at a temperature below what the computer thinks is warmed up, then it'll always be running rich = shitty fuel economy, and poor power.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#51
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Wires
Hot fuel atomizes and burns better than cold fuel. If the engine is too cold, then the fuel doesn't atomize right, and ends up pooling in the intake manifold.
Also, I don't know how Acura does it, but in order to "choke" a fuel injected motor, they spray in more fuel when cold. If you are running at a temperature below what the computer thinks is warmed up, then it'll always be running rich = shitty fuel economy, and poor power.
Hot fuel atomizes and burns better than cold fuel. If the engine is too cold, then the fuel doesn't atomize right, and ends up pooling in the intake manifold.
Also, I don't know how Acura does it, but in order to "choke" a fuel injected motor, they spray in more fuel when cold. If you are running at a temperature below what the computer thinks is warmed up, then it'll always be running rich = shitty fuel economy, and poor power.
![Wink](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
The fuel, in our cars, will not pool in the intake manifold during "normal" operation. The injectors are spraying into the ports, so unless there was a catastrophic/major failure that caused the injectors to stick open, there would not be any fuel pooling/collecting in the manifolds and/or plenum. Your assertion is correct with regards to earlier carburetor and fuel injection systems that didn't use port injection (some FI systems had an injector or two in a hollowed-out carb. body..
Acura adjusts the fuel-air mix depending on the intake air temperature (IAT), coolant/water temp (ECT), throttle position (TP), manifold vacuum (MAP), and the O2 sensor if the PGM-FI signals the system to go into closed loop mode (warm-up over).
Before the car is warm, the thermostat may have some influence on how the car warms up (if it has holes drilled in it or it is of a different design that prevents it from closing off the radiator as well as the stock thermostat).
The service manual notes that it looks at the ECT and IAT and if they are the same, it presumes that the engine is cold.
If a thermostat had a low-enough temperature (during normal closed loop operation) to cause the engine to see a temp well below it’s normal operating temp, I’m pretty sure you would see the engine light come on. I put a note in (earlier) that refers to an engine code associated with “out of range” engine coolant temperatures (ECT).
The largest impact could be in emissions (colder cylinder wall temps) that could cause “quenching”. It is also possible that the higher air density could result in lower gas mileage, lower fuel economy, but higher power output!
The fuel-air trim tables will compensate for the intake air temp and coolant air temp to insure that the mixture has the correct fuel-air mixture (the O2 sensor has a very narrow range of operation and would turn on the engine light if it could not get the mixture in range.
#52
I stuck the old Fluke temperature probe on the thermostat housing last night. I have a bottle of water wetter in it, so I don't know if that helps or not, but this is what I found:
The thermostat housing would reach 175 F, the cooling fan would kick in, the housing dropped to 165 F, the fan stuff off. The temperature oscillated between 165F and 175F (depending if the rad fan was running or not). Garage was about 65 F.
That's with the OEM thermostat, idling in the garage after driving around town (the thermostat was open - rad hoses were under pressure).
The thermostat housing would reach 175 F, the cooling fan would kick in, the housing dropped to 165 F, the fan stuff off. The temperature oscillated between 165F and 175F (depending if the rad fan was running or not). Garage was about 65 F.
That's with the OEM thermostat, idling in the garage after driving around town (the thermostat was open - rad hoses were under pressure).
![Cool](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif)
#53
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by Wires
I stuck the old Fluke temperature probe on the thermostat housing last night. I have a bottle of water wetter in it, so I don't know if that helps or not, but this is what I found:
The thermostat housing would reach 175 F, the cooling fan would kick in, the housing dropped to 165 F, the fan stuff off. The temperature oscillated between 165F and 175F (depending if the rad fan was running or not). Garage was about 65 F.
That's with the OEM thermostat, idling in the garage after driving around town (the thermostat was open - rad hoses were under pressure).
I stuck the old Fluke temperature probe on the thermostat housing last night. I have a bottle of water wetter in it, so I don't know if that helps or not, but this is what I found:
The thermostat housing would reach 175 F, the cooling fan would kick in, the housing dropped to 165 F, the fan stuff off. The temperature oscillated between 165F and 175F (depending if the rad fan was running or not). Garage was about 65 F.
That's with the OEM thermostat, idling in the garage after driving around town (the thermostat was open - rad hoses were under pressure).
![Cool](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif)
I'm starting to wonder about moving the temp too much lower (re: the Helms OBD II diagnostic notes/codes).
I'm starting to think that a "fan override" switch might be the best solution for "forced" cool downs of the car...
Helms info again:
Helms 11-56 (DTC Troubleshooting):
Note: ECT == Engine Coolant Temperature sensor.
There is a reference to a DTC P0116 OBDII code: "Range Performance Problems in ECT Sensor Circuit"
1. Start the engine. Hold the engine at 3,000 rpm with no load (in Park or neutral) until the radiator fan comes on, then let it idle.
2. Check the ECT with the scan tool
is 176 - 200F (80 - 93C) or 0.4 - 0.7 V indicated?
YES -- Intermittent failure, system is OK at this time. Check the thermostat and the cooling system
NO -- Check the thermostat and the cooling system. IF they are OK, replace the ECT sensor.
I'd sure hate to drag around an OBD II tool to keep resetting the computer...
#54
Originally posted by EricL
The Fluke's Type-K thermocouples are pretty accurate... As to how much temperature loss there is -- who knows...
I'm starting to wonder about moving the temp too much lower (re: the Helms OBD II diagnostic notes/codes).
I'm starting to think that a "fan override" switch might be the best solution for "forced" cool downs of the car...
Helms info again:
Helms 11-56 (DTC Troubleshooting):
Note: ECT == Engine Coolant Temperature sensor.
There is a reference to a DTC P0116 OBDII code: "Range Performance Problems in ECT Sensor Circuit"
1. Start the engine. Hold the engine at 3,000 rpm with no load (in Park or neutral) until the radiator fan comes on, then let it idle.
2. Check the ECT with the scan tool
is 176 - 200F (80 - 93C) or 0.4 - 0.7 V indicated?
YES -- Intermittent failure, system is OK at this time. Check the thermostat and the cooling system
NO -- Check the thermostat and the cooling system. IF they are OK, replace the ECT sensor.
I'd sure hate to drag around an OBD II tool to keep resetting the computer...
The Fluke's Type-K thermocouples are pretty accurate... As to how much temperature loss there is -- who knows...
I'm starting to wonder about moving the temp too much lower (re: the Helms OBD II diagnostic notes/codes).
I'm starting to think that a "fan override" switch might be the best solution for "forced" cool downs of the car...
Helms info again:
Helms 11-56 (DTC Troubleshooting):
Note: ECT == Engine Coolant Temperature sensor.
There is a reference to a DTC P0116 OBDII code: "Range Performance Problems in ECT Sensor Circuit"
1. Start the engine. Hold the engine at 3,000 rpm with no load (in Park or neutral) until the radiator fan comes on, then let it idle.
2. Check the ECT with the scan tool
is 176 - 200F (80 - 93C) or 0.4 - 0.7 V indicated?
YES -- Intermittent failure, system is OK at this time. Check the thermostat and the cooling system
NO -- Check the thermostat and the cooling system. IF they are OK, replace the ECT sensor.
I'd sure hate to drag around an OBD II tool to keep resetting the computer...
I agree with you, I don't think I would want to take it too much lower.
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#55
Suzuka Master
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I'll d a screen capture tonight as I need to hook up my laptop. But I assure you the temps are in the 195 - 200 range when fully warmed.
BTW, has anyone seen a P0217 in the manual?? I didn't see it in the index nor a P1299.
BTW, has anyone seen a P0217 in the manual?? I didn't see it in the index nor a P1299.
#56
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Here are the captures and what I expected.
Cooling fan turning on:
![](http://www.flwse.com/images/steve/PCM_Test/ECT_Fan_On.JPG)
Cooling fan turning off:
![](http://www.flwse.com/images/steve/PCM_Test/ECT_Fan_Off.JPG)
However, there is an intersting point to this. The 6-Speed has only one fan switch versus three for the auto. Additionally with the AC running, the temps were running about 180 - 185 degrees F versus 195 - 205 F without the AC on.
What this says is that we might be able to get away with just the fan switch to keep the temps down at about 180 F. This will be easy to try but since I have my laptop I might still drill a small hole in the stock stat. I guess it is time to order that switch then...
BTW, that P1299 was incorrect, it was P1399 or temporary code for an intermitent misfire. But as expected, I can't get it to repeat when I have the laptop hooked up so I can get the freeze frame data. Oh the joys of DTCs, if you experiment you had better expect them. I'll wait until I run some Techron and swap the plugs before running a compression test.
The P0217 hasn't repeated...
Cooling fan turning on:
Cooling fan turning off:
However, there is an intersting point to this. The 6-Speed has only one fan switch versus three for the auto. Additionally with the AC running, the temps were running about 180 - 185 degrees F versus 195 - 205 F without the AC on.
What this says is that we might be able to get away with just the fan switch to keep the temps down at about 180 F. This will be easy to try but since I have my laptop I might still drill a small hole in the stock stat. I guess it is time to order that switch then...
BTW, that P1299 was incorrect, it was P1399 or temporary code for an intermitent misfire. But as expected, I can't get it to repeat when I have the laptop hooked up so I can get the freeze frame data. Oh the joys of DTCs, if you experiment you had better expect them. I'll wait until I run some Techron and swap the plugs before running a compression test.
The P0217 hasn't repeated...
#58
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by scalbert
What this says is that we might be able to get away with just the fan switch to keep the temps down at about 180 F. This will be easy to try but since I have my laptop I might still drill a small hole in the stock stat. I guess it is time to order that switch then...
What this says is that we might be able to get away with just the fan switch to keep the temps down at about 180 F. This will be easy to try but since I have my laptop I might still drill a small hole in the stock stat. I guess it is time to order that switch then...
Steve, I really have a very strong feeling about just putting in a fan override switch in the car (non-harness butchering way).
It seems that leaving the A/C on (a 1/4-mile no-no) is a round town must-do (A/C turns off at WOT, but keeps fans blasting at full during switch cycling).
Why not just "alter" the system to keep the fans cycling at high when it’s "power-time?"
(Or, better yet, just keep them on for a dyno or run...)
Do you have a Service Manual that includes 2003 model year with manual (#61S3M02)?
#59
Suzuka Master
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Originally posted by EricL
Why not just "alter" the system to keep the fans cycling at high when it’s "power-time?"
Do you have a Service Manual that includes 2003 model year with manual (#61S3M02)?
Why not just "alter" the system to keep the fans cycling at high when it’s "power-time?"
Do you have a Service Manual that includes 2003 model year with manual (#61S3M02)?
Yes, I just got my '01 - '03 manual today.
#60
ex 6 Speed owner :(
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Just a note of caution:
Removing the thermostat alltogether (as someone mentioned in here) is not a good idea. One of the functions of the thermostat is to reduce the flow velocity which increases heat tranfser. Removing this restriction will definitely make the coolant cooler but the engine may actually run HOTTER because these is not enough time for heat transfer to take place. A much lower temp. needle will mislead people into thinking the engine is running cooler when in fact it most likely is not. Much more heat will transfer between a metal slab and slow moving cool water than with fast moving cold water. Just trying to remember my heat transfer and thermodynamic classes...
Removing the thermostat alltogether (as someone mentioned in here) is not a good idea. One of the functions of the thermostat is to reduce the flow velocity which increases heat tranfser. Removing this restriction will definitely make the coolant cooler but the engine may actually run HOTTER because these is not enough time for heat transfer to take place. A much lower temp. needle will mislead people into thinking the engine is running cooler when in fact it most likely is not. Much more heat will transfer between a metal slab and slow moving cool water than with fast moving cold water. Just trying to remember my heat transfer and thermodynamic classes...
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#61
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by BlueCLS6
Just a note of caution:
Removing the thermostat alltogether (as someone mentioned in here) is not a good idea.
Just a note of caution:
Removing the thermostat alltogether (as someone mentioned in here) is not a good idea.
![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
One of the functions of the thermostat is to reduce the flow velocity which increases heat tranfser.
Removing this restriction will definitely make the coolant cooler but the engine may actually run HOTTER because these is not enough time for heat transfer to take place.
As it stands and without further clarification , the statement is nonsense…
A much lower temp. needle will mislead people into thinking the engine is running cooler when in fact it most likely is not.
Much more heat will transfer between a metal slab and slow moving cool water than with fast moving cold water. Just trying to remember my heat transfer and thermodynamic classes...
![Smile](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
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