gavriil

So I am reading this article on European Car Mag called The Grand Prix and I qote:

"The task was a simple one; the decision was anything but. Naming the most significant European import of the year for the 2003 european car Grand Prix trophy was the most difficult decision we've faced in the five years of this annual accolade."

http://www.europeancarweb.com/features/0308ec_grandprix

Then I look at the contenders and I see the following cars listed:

Mercedes-Benz E500
Porsche Boxster S
BMW Z4 Roadster
Saab 9-3
Jaguar XJR
New Beetle Convertible
Volvo S60 R
Audi RS6

The Volvo won, but back to my point:

My point is: How are the Volvo, the Saab and the Jaguar, IMPORTS?

Volvo and Jag are owned by Ford and Saab by GM. Both USAmerican companies.

Just because they are built outside the USA, they are considered Imports? So when GM/Ford builds cars in Canada and South America and then imports them to our market, they are also considered Imports? So the Silverado and the Blazer are imports? What am I missing?

gavriil

Quote from the article:

"Along with most of the drivers, my first impression of the S60 R--months earlier at the Paul Ricard High Tech Test Track in southern France--provoked a loud "wow" of astonishment that the conservative Swedish car maker pulled off such a stunt."

What Swedish maker? Ex-Swedish maker you mean?

What is the matter with these...."auto journalists" ?

darrinb

well are cars are made here but are still imports, i wish it was made in japan and shipped here

JaDia4

how about the new pontiac gto? It will be built in australia. engines built in the US and shipped to OZ then the whole car built and shipped back to the us. Import or domestic?

gavriil

Exactly my point.

In my opinion, the GTO is 100% a domestic car.

amisconception

I think domestic/versus import has to do with the historical context of the company, and the nation with which it's corp.'s headquarters are located geographically.

The starkest example of this that I know of is the Range Rover. Originally British (or whatever), then owned by German BMW (which is why they have the 4.4 in their) and is NOW owned by Ford all in a year or two transition... weird... but I'd label it domestic (american). It's of course relative to whichever country you're in.

SilviaGTO

In my opinion, the GTO will always be the 3000gt from Japan.

Morris

I always consider a car an import if more than 50% of the car's content is imported. For example, the CL (in my opinion) is a domestic car because it is about 70% domestic content.

I would probably call the GTO an import because the domestic content will probably be less than 50%.

zamo

Import brand, with domestic reliability

dallison

gm ford chrysler all domestic.. everything else import. i even consider mazda a domestic, b/c most of its parts are ford. i know geo was basically a corolla with gm skin et al

JaDia4

Why though? The GTO will built on an Australian platform known as the Holden Monaro. Just rebadged. Admittedly Holden is an affiliate or subsidiary of GM. GM is going to have the whole world working on their different vehicles icluding South Africa and Europe. But if the car is foreign built and/or designed wouldn't it be an import regardless of the badging? Maybe there should be a GMi division, for Gen. Motors Imports, that would make it alot simpler.

GreenMonster

The lines are getting less clear now. With many auto companies partly owned by "the big three", it's hard to make easy an fast distinctions.

I usually consider the country of origin of the manufactor's home office as the defining point.

Honda for example is headquartered in Japan, so it's an import (even tho' the cars are built in Maryville OH).

That's the way I see it, but I can see the argument of anything that was built outside the USA as being an import.

Where the car is engineered and designed is probably more important then where it's put together.

You're not going back far enough in history.

Pontiac had a GTO back in the 60's when Mitsubishi was still making heavy equiptment and wasn't even thinking about building cars yet.

To me a GTO has to have a V8 in it, and have a song written about it by the Beach Boys (or someone similiar)

JaDia4

[QUOTE
You're not going back far enough in history.

Pontiac had a GTO back in the 60's when Mitsubishi was still making heavy equiptment and wasn't even thinking about building cars yet.

To me a GTO has to have a V8 in it, and have a song written about it by the Beach Boys (or someone similiar) [/B][/QUOTE]

I thought everyone knew about the Pontiac GTO. The old one that is....

GreenMonster

Only old people like you and me remember

Most of the MTV generation (born after 1980), don't associate the term "Gran Turismo" with anything but a game you can play on playstation

Heck, I forgot what the "O" stood for in GTO, but doing a google search just leads me to thousands of gaming websites

Type S

some of jaguars are imported...
but i am not sure X type..as it has ford's engine in it
even benz is owned by chrysler group.
but the production lines are still in germany...
that consider as import..
so the way i figure is..foreign car manufactures are almost considered as import..no matter they are purchased by which of our domestic car manufacures...

dallison

saab has gm parts too. the american co's sometimes ruin a perfectly good foreign car co. but i think in jaguars case it helped.
you don't really hear the phrase
you buy 2 jags, one to drive when the other is in the garage

gavriil

OK. And I ask. Why its historical context and not the present context? Fair enough?

gavriil

Ah?

gavriil

Wait a sec. Why should a car's "nationality" be dependant upon the "nationality" of its parts? The parts dont make the car. The car becomes reality by a company. Ford for example might import all the parts of the Mustnag from Korea, but it should still be considered a USAmerican car. BEcause Ford, which is a USAmerican company, conceived it, designed it, financed it, promoted and marketed it. Where Ford buys the parts for it, is ONE of the many things that have to be done for a car to become reality.

gavriil

Holden is a WHOLY OWNED GM SUBSIDIARY. That means that Holden is PART of General Motors. GM is a USAmerican company, HENCE, Holden is USAmerican, hence the Monaro is USAmerican and that makes the GTO USAmerican.

Why does this seem so obvious to me and others get so confused?

"The car is foreign built"

So the Z3, Z4, X5 and others are USAmerican cars? Cos they are built here. Same with Camry and a million others. Come on. Holden BELONGS....TOTALLY to GM. If it's built in Australia is irrelevant. That does not make the car an Australian car, nor the company Australian. It belongs to GM. The shots for OPEL, Vauxhul, Holden, Saab are called in Detroit!


"The car is designed"

So? The car is designed by Holden which OPERATES in Australia and hires Australian employees. So that makes the Monaro an Australian car? No. Holden OPERATES because it's financed by GM. So if it operates financed by GM, it pays people it hires with "GM money". Which makes the whole "deal" a GM "deal". Which makes it a USAmerican deal.

fahoumh

The Jaguar XJ series is still built in the UK and shipped out. So is the XK series.

gavriil

That's fine.

You know where the SHOTS for Opel's next Astra's platform are called at? At Detroit. You know where the budget for Saab comes from? From detroit. You know who says "we got to lay off 35,000 people next year and close 4 plants"? Execs from Detroit.

You got to have an HQ somewhere close to where you operate, so that is why OPEL chose Germany as the HQ for its European operations. Same with other subsidiaries.

If you are a WHOLY OWNED subsidiary of a bigger company, you WHOLY belong to that mother company. Period. The rest is dust in people's eyes to think that certain brands are of certain
"nationality".

See above please. Honda is a Japanese company cos the SHOTS are called in Tokyo. The board of directors is of Japanese origin (at least in its majority if not holisticly), same with the CEO and most of his lutenants.

3 things denote a company's nationality:

1. Where the HQ is at
2. What nationality the CEO (and the executive VP team) and the board of directors are
3. Of what nationality are the funds holding most of the stocks of that company (most if not all of auto manufacturers are public companies trading at major stock exchanges around the world).

Number 3 is slightly of lesser importance but still a major factor.


And why is that?

So OPEL is a German company? What is Ford's operations in Europe then? There are tons of cars the Ford manufactures for the EUropean market only, UNDER THE FORD NAME! What does that make those cars? European? And the Taurus is USAmerican?


The GTO denotation belongs to Ferrari to be acurate. Mitsu nor GM were the first to use it.

gavriil

So? How does the above fact make them British? OR, of British descent?

gavriil

O stands for OMOLOGATO. Which means Homologated in Italian. Another proof of the fact that the GTO name is owned by Ferrari.

gavriil

The X type is also made in England. And one of the factories actually is probably closing due to low demand. But so what?

gavriil

You mean Chrysler is owned by Daimler Chrysler? Or DCX ?

gavriil

See one of the major problems with Ford and GM is that they dont advertise their accomplishments they way they should. They suck at promoting their own image.

You have got to be kidding me with the above comment. I am sorry but I take offense at the above, first as a USAMerican citizen.

Jaguar and Saab and Volvo and Aston and others, were at the verge of exctinction before GM and Ford bought whatever remains (assets) left and infused (and still is injecting) TONS of cash and made it possible for them to still exist, albeit some still problmematic (of which Saab in the worse financial distress currently from the above mentioned ones).

If you thought that Saab, Volvo, Jag, Aston were doing fine before the big, bad American company bought them and ruined them, you are beyong mistaken and need to be informed better....as a USAmerican citizen first, before any other reason. Please...

fahoumh

how DOESN'T it? Jaguar was a British company before Ford bought them out in '89 and is STILL a British company. The XJ series has been around for over 30 years and the XK for over 50.

gavriil

Still is a British company? I guess our definition of what consitutes the nationality of a company is totally different. Which is the subject of my thread and why I opened it.

Let me ask you this. Since you are accepting the fact that Ford bought them in 1989, what did that do to Jaguar? The acquisition by Ford that is. Did that not affect Jaguar's "descent"?

fahoumh

Without Ford, there would be no Jaguar today. Jaguar was in a lot of trouble when Ford bought them. I mean, they were still using 70's electrical technology in the 80's! All Ford did was save them, they still manufacture British autos.

dallison

what i meant jag was not doing well on thier own until ford and their reliability soared.


i don't know how financially challenged some of these foreign co's such as saab were doing.

but most american cars are worthy of only rental status. poor quality generally. there are exceptions. the japanese and germans build one hell of a car. we make good attempts and succeed usually.

its just too bad that foreign cars are more reliable and are worth the extra $ that u pay

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Bottom line.....

If it comes to North America on a boat it is an import.

BMW's made in the US are not imports.
Honda's made in Ohio are not imports.

If the majority of the car is not built in North America (Canada, Mexico, US) the car is an import.

Acura doesn't exist in Japan, but it is owned by a Japanese company. That doesn't make it an import manufacturer. Except in certain cases like the TSX which is 100% built in Japan.

gavriil

All Ford did was save them? You make it sound like Ford did something out of their good heart. Ford BOUGHT them. That's what Ford did. Which means that now, they are part of Ford. Which means they are an American company.

gavriil

So Honda is an American company. So is BMW?

GreenMonster

They are all imports and domestics at the same time damn it

I blame it on the "global ecomony" concept that is quite the rage now

fahoumh

what a narrow-minded view you have.

gavriil

OK. I'll take the attack. Now, what is your view to my comment above?

By the way, I just noticed that you are 10 years younger than me and you live in Canada. Just putting things in perspective for you and the rest of the member following this conversation/thread.

Now let's go back to the discussion we had. Your turn and chance to go past the attack and actually bring arguments to the table. So...

fahoumh

Sorry, I'm just being defensive. In case you hadn't noticed I love Jaguar to death.

But I still disagree with the notion that simply because Jaguar is owned by Ford, that makes Jaguar an American company.

gavriil

I know you disagree. What I am asking you is to tell me why do you think they are British? Why are they not USAmerican?

Also, why does Jaguar suddenly look worse in your eyes if it were USAmerican in descent? What's wrong with that?

fahoumh

Please elaborate.