Supercharger Thoughts
08-29-2003, 02:06 PM
#201
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Originally posted by scalbert
Yep, Brad is correct. We just want to get the most out of what we have. And Smitty hit it too; this is for fun too...
Just FYI, I ran some numbers on the whole system with intercooler. I used Corky Bell's formula for determining estimated HP in a supercharged vehicle. I also made an assumption of headers already being added making the engine HP total 290. The results are as follows:
Power = Original Power * Pressure Ratio * Density Ratio * Volumetric Efficiency Ratio * Drive Power Efficiency
Original Power = 290 HP
Pressure Ratio = 8 PSI Boost = 14.7 + 8 / 14.7 = 1.54
Density Ratio = Original Absolute Temperature / Final Absolute Temperature = (460 + 90) / (460 + 112.5) = 0.96
Note: I used an IC efficiency of 0.85 which is conservative in this application and the expected temperature rise as defined in the blower specifications from Magnuson.
Volumetric Efficiency Ratio = SC VE / Engine VE = 0.97 / 0.90 = 1.08
Note: The SC VE was also taken from Magnuson’s website. I assumed an engine VE of 0.90 since this is a Honda engine
Drive Power Efficiency = 0.92
Note: As estimated based on the boost and blower type.
290 * 1.54 * 0.96 * 1.08 * 0.92 = 426 Crank HP
For 6-Speed WHP I’ll use a 17% drivetrain loss: 426 * 0.83 = 354 WHP
For 5-Speed WHP I’ll use a 23% drivetrain loss: 426 * 0.77 = 328 WHP
This is somewhat conservative so real gains may be a little higher. But regardless, 350 WHP should satisfy my urge for quite some time; 370 WHP would be even better.
I ran the same numbers on the currently available higher boost pulley; generating around 5.5 – 6.0 PSI boost. The crank HP came out to 394 HP and 6-Speed WHP is 327 WHP. Again, this is conservative and will most likely be a little higher. But once again, 325 WHP or maybe even 335 WHP will be nice.
Remember, both examples are with the intercooler.
Yep, Brad is correct. We just want to get the most out of what we have. And Smitty hit it too; this is for fun too...
Just FYI, I ran some numbers on the whole system with intercooler. I used Corky Bell's formula for determining estimated HP in a supercharged vehicle. I also made an assumption of headers already being added making the engine HP total 290. The results are as follows:
Power = Original Power * Pressure Ratio * Density Ratio * Volumetric Efficiency Ratio * Drive Power Efficiency
Original Power = 290 HP
Pressure Ratio = 8 PSI Boost = 14.7 + 8 / 14.7 = 1.54
Density Ratio = Original Absolute Temperature / Final Absolute Temperature = (460 + 90) / (460 + 112.5) = 0.96
Note: I used an IC efficiency of 0.85 which is conservative in this application and the expected temperature rise as defined in the blower specifications from Magnuson.
Volumetric Efficiency Ratio = SC VE / Engine VE = 0.97 / 0.90 = 1.08
Note: The SC VE was also taken from Magnuson’s website. I assumed an engine VE of 0.90 since this is a Honda engine
Drive Power Efficiency = 0.92
Note: As estimated based on the boost and blower type.
290 * 1.54 * 0.96 * 1.08 * 0.92 = 426 Crank HP
For 6-Speed WHP I’ll use a 17% drivetrain loss: 426 * 0.83 = 354 WHP
For 5-Speed WHP I’ll use a 23% drivetrain loss: 426 * 0.77 = 328 WHP
This is somewhat conservative so real gains may be a little higher. But regardless, 350 WHP should satisfy my urge for quite some time; 370 WHP would be even better.
I ran the same numbers on the currently available higher boost pulley; generating around 5.5 – 6.0 PSI boost. The crank HP came out to 394 HP and 6-Speed WHP is 327 WHP. Again, this is conservative and will most likely be a little higher. But once again, 325 WHP or maybe even 335 WHP will be nice.
Remember, both examples are with the intercooler.
08-29-2003, 04:58 PM
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I'm thinking of buying the UR SS pullies. What kind of effect will they have on the supercharger?
08-29-2003, 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by JaDia4
so higher psi will come from a larger or heavier pulley?
so higher psi will come from a larger or heavier pulley?
08-30-2003, 08:43 AM
#206
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Originally posted by ModAddict
I would like to offer you the use of a new blower pulley.
SF Pulley said on the GP, the difference between the 4" and 3.4" pulley was about 2.5 PSI.
I would like to offer you the use of a new blower pulley.
SF Pulley said on the GP, the difference between the 4" and 3.4" pulley was about 2.5 PSI.
As for the size, since we have a smaller blower the size change makes a larger difference in the boost. I’ll come up with the approximate numbers this weekend. Btw, the stock GTP pulley was 3.8" and going to a 3.4" made about that 2.5 psi more boost; sometimes 3.5 depending on conditions.
08-30-2003, 09:02 AM
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I've always wondered if we could reduce the parasitic loss with the proper size pulley combinations. Smaller crank would mean a larger stepper or smaller blower, and in the end is the parasitic loss the same anyways?
08-30-2003, 09:46 AM
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[QOUTE]Originally posted by ModAddict
The problem with larger is it runs all your accys faster also, which robs power, and might overwork the accys, but yes it will give you more PSI. [/B][/QUOTE]
please for give my "rookie-ness" but where is a good place to find the basics of boost? I would think going to a smaller diameter pulley would spin faster thus increasing boost, but above ModAddict says a larger one will. There must be more there than meets the eye. When I do get an SC I'd like to know what is going on rather than just drop my car off at a shop and say give me more boost!
The problem with larger is it runs all your accys faster also, which robs power, and might overwork the accys, but yes it will give you more PSI. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by scalbert
Thanks Brad, but i don't think that will be necessary. I’ll buy one once we know the size.
As for the size, since we have a smaller blower the size change makes a larger difference in the boost. I’ll come up with the approximate numbers this weekend. Btw, the stock GTP pulley was 3.8" and going to a 3.4" made about that 2.5 psi more boost; sometimes 3.5 depending on conditions.
Thanks Brad, but i don't think that will be necessary. I’ll buy one once we know the size.
As for the size, since we have a smaller blower the size change makes a larger difference in the boost. I’ll come up with the approximate numbers this weekend. Btw, the stock GTP pulley was 3.8" and going to a 3.4" made about that 2.5 psi more boost; sometimes 3.5 depending on conditions.
08-30-2003, 12:42 PM
#210
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Think of two gears equally sized; gear A and B, both are 2 inches diameter. If gear A turns gear B they both will turn at the same rate; a 1:1 ratio.
Now make gear A bigger; to 4 inches. This gives you a 2:1 ratio and for every single rotation of gear A, gear B will turn twice. In other words, for any given rate of gear A, gear B will turn twice as fast.
Take the converse of this and leave gear A at 2 inches but decrease gear B to 1 inch. This is still a 2:1 ratio with the same results as example two.
Think of the crank pulley as being gear A and the SC pulley being gear B. However, there are intermediate gears in this application but the basics are there. If you really want to learn this, pick up the book “Supercharged” by Corky Bell:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...072117-2610556
Now make gear A bigger; to 4 inches. This gives you a 2:1 ratio and for every single rotation of gear A, gear B will turn twice. In other words, for any given rate of gear A, gear B will turn twice as fast.
Take the converse of this and leave gear A at 2 inches but decrease gear B to 1 inch. This is still a 2:1 ratio with the same results as example two.
Think of the crank pulley as being gear A and the SC pulley being gear B. However, there are intermediate gears in this application but the basics are there. If you really want to learn this, pick up the book “Supercharged” by Corky Bell:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...072117-2610556
08-30-2003, 12:45 PM
#211
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Originally posted by ModAddict
Did you get your fuel pressure/boost squared away?
Did you get your fuel pressure/boost squared away?
08-30-2003, 05:37 PM
#214
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OK, I ran some of the numbers on the two pulleys in question. We already know the following sizes of SC drive portion of the alternator pulleys:
3.000 Inch for the Standard Pulley
3.275 Inch for the Higher Boost Pulley
As we discussed, from here it might be better to swap the SC pulley to get even more boost. The standard SC pulley measures about 3.92 inches. The following are estimated sizes and their associated boost levels for the SC pulley.
3.6 Inch should generate about 7.5 PSI boost
3.5 Inch should run it up to about 8.0 PSI boost.
Now all we need to do is send off out SC drive pulley to get copied and a smaller one made. Hopefully just in time for the completion of the intercooler.
3.000 Inch for the Standard Pulley
3.275 Inch for the Higher Boost Pulley
As we discussed, from here it might be better to swap the SC pulley to get even more boost. The standard SC pulley measures about 3.92 inches. The following are estimated sizes and their associated boost levels for the SC pulley.
3.6 Inch should generate about 7.5 PSI boost
3.5 Inch should run it up to about 8.0 PSI boost.
Now all we need to do is send off out SC drive pulley to get copied and a smaller one made. Hopefully just in time for the completion of the intercooler.
08-30-2003, 06:05 PM
#216
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Originally posted by typeR
no hopefully just in time for someone to take there damn car, to the damn track, damn it
no hopefully just in time for someone to take there damn car, to the damn track, damn it
On the converse, where is your dyno... :pfawk:
08-30-2003, 07:07 PM
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Sometimes I think I think too much. I've been thinking about this thermostat swap. Reading thru the old posts, the theory is that at higher temps the ECU will pull timing, so if we run a cooler stat, the ecu won't pull timing and won't cause a loss. With a FI motor don't we want to reduce the advance anyways? I know we don't want to pull timing at all rpm, and at this level of boost we're ok, but I'm just saying..... 
08-30-2003, 07:08 PM
#218
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Originally posted by scalbert
Even then, we'll be sure to keep them from you.
On the converse, where is your dyno... :pfawk:
Even then, we'll be sure to keep them from you.
On the converse, where is your dyno... :pfawk:
08-30-2003, 10:03 PM
#219
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Originally posted by scalbert
Now all we need to do is send off out SC drive pulley to get copied and a smaller one made. Hopefully just in time for the completion of the intercooler.
Now all we need to do is send off out SC drive pulley to get copied and a smaller one made. Hopefully just in time for the completion of the intercooler.
I assure you that will not be a problem at all... just let me know where we are going with it..
Smitty
08-31-2003, 05:16 AM
#220
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Originally posted by typeR
you goto to the track and ill dyno ...deal ?
you goto to the track and ill dyno ...deal ?
Just to be of assistance, local DynoJet locations:
Fordspeed
11735 66th North
Largo, 33773
Tel. 727-549-8255
Hybrid Performance
17604 Hwy 41 N.
Lutz, 33549
Tel. 813-546-3788
Massari - Muller Racing
1984 Sherwood St.
Clearwater 34625
Tel. 813-282-3255
Race Related Inc.
12485 44th St. North
Clearwater 33762
Tel. 727-561-9440
Spec R Tuning
14513 N. Nebraska Ave. Suite 109
Tampa 33613
Tel. 813-910-7235
08-31-2003, 05:20 AM
#221
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Originally posted by Smitty
I assure you that will not be a problem at all... just let me know where we are going with it..
I assure you that will not be a problem at all... just let me know where we are going with it..
But it is still drivable if you consider 0 - 60 in about 15 seconds drivable.
But it sounds like you may have alternative transportation planned. If so, Brad has the address and contact information.
08-31-2003, 05:45 AM
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Originally posted by scalbert
Just FYI, it is not pleasant to drive without the SC enable; the car is dog slow since the only air getting into the motor is through the bypass valve. As you get more on it the vacuum drops closing the valve. So everything works against you.
But it is still drivable if you consider 0 - 60 in about 15 seconds drivable.
But it sounds like you may have alternative transportation planned. If so, Brad has the address and contact information.
Just FYI, it is not pleasant to drive without the SC enable; the car is dog slow since the only air getting into the motor is through the bypass valve. As you get more on it the vacuum drops closing the valve. So everything works against you.
But it is still drivable if you consider 0 - 60 in about 15 seconds drivable.
But it sounds like you may have alternative transportation planned. If so, Brad has the address and contact information.
09-16-2003, 03:45 PM
#226
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Originally posted by Smitty
Let me see what I can do... I might be able to get one and everyone will keep theres where it belongs for now... sit tight.
Let me see what I can do... I might be able to get one and everyone will keep theres where it belongs for now... sit tight.
09-16-2003, 04:03 PM
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Originally posted by ModAddict
Headers go on this weekend,.... you got something else lined up?
Headers go on this weekend,.... you got something else lined up?
Either Baty will get us one directly from the horses mouth or EssaraK Hout will pull his off since his S/C is not installed yet....
right on schedule...
09-16-2003, 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by ModAddict
okie-doki
where's my "Smitty Exhaust Mod"?
okie-doki
where's my "Smitty Exhaust Mod"?
Did you install the SIM yet?
ALL I need to do is make the measurements and call him, then we are in business... have not had the time yet, hopefully this week I can get it done.
09-16-2003, 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by ModAddict
No need for the sim until the cut-out's in. I'll take some measurements while I'm under there this weekend.
No need for the sim until the cut-out's in. I'll take some measurements while I'm under there this weekend.
We will compare notes:....this weekend...
09-16-2003, 04:48 PM
#232
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Just FYI, the shop hasn't started yet on the base plate for the IC. I do hope it will be this week but when it comes to CNC work, we are minnows...
I will run by there Friday to get a status check.
I will run by there Friday to get a status check.
09-17-2003, 04:17 PM
#233
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Essarack is sending the polished pulley to me and then off to Florida it goes.....
... I should have it soon and in the mail by mid next week......
... I should have it soon and in the mail by mid next week......
09-17-2003, 05:19 PM
#234
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Two months ago I contacted Payne Tech and gave them my standard boost pulley while I was trying Steve's high boost pulley. They took the measurements, sent it back to me, and told me they would need a deposit to get one made, and would take about two weeks. I told them I'd let them know what I wanted and would give them a deposit at that time. I never called them back. Today, they called to tell me my pulley was ready. 
I'll see what they made up tomorow, and if it looks right, I'll probably go ahead and take it. This is a stepper pulley that goes on the alternator, not the blower pulley.
I'll see what they made up tomorow, and if it looks right, I'll probably go ahead and take it. This is a stepper pulley that goes on the alternator, not the blower pulley.
09-17-2003, 05:50 PM
#235
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Oh O.... going to push the envelope so early...
P.S. just got off the phone with the exhaust guy... he is overnighting the 22 degee flange and assembly so I can test fit it this weekend.... the end link flanges will not be welded on since there might be fitment issues....he has no problem with doing the bung.. He just needs the thread and size...(I think it is 18mm)...
He expects measurements by the end of this weekend... It will take about 1 week for him to put together... he estimates 6 feet of electrical wiring so we can get 12V from the cig lighter on a 30amp fuse... plus that is where the switch for the dump will be... but we need to figure out where we want to hide it or have it.
this is going to be bitchin
P.S. just got off the phone with the exhaust guy... he is overnighting the 22 degee flange and assembly so I can test fit it this weekend.... the end link flanges will not be welded on since there might be fitment issues....he has no problem with doing the bung.. He just needs the thread and size...(I think it is 18mm)...
He expects measurements by the end of this weekend... It will take about 1 week for him to put together... he estimates 6 feet of electrical wiring so we can get 12V from the cig lighter on a 30amp fuse... plus that is where the switch for the dump will be... but we need to figure out where we want to hide it or have it.
this is going to be bitchin
09-17-2003, 06:01 PM
#236
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I will not put the Max pulley on untill I have some sort of engine management or a intercooled intake charge.
I will however, install the Smitty Exhaust Mod, as soon as I get it. :P
I will however, install the Smitty Exhaust Mod, as soon as I get it. :P
09-19-2003, 07:45 PM
#237
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The Max Boost Stepper Pulley is made of lightweight aluminum, and incorporates a unique groove design to eliminate belt slippage at high boost, track tested at 12 psi on a Paxton blown NSX. Estimated boost on a Comptech S/C kit, for the Acura 3.2 CLS/TLS is 8 psi. Actual boost numbers could vary from car to car. Not recommended without an intercooler, such as the "Type S/C"
09-20-2003, 04:32 PM
#239
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The Headers are on and they leaned out my pig pretty well! It's allmost impossible to go below 10:1 now, and when it does, it just bumps it and then heads back up as the RPM's go up. I'm seing high 10's and low 11's, and that really wakes this blower car up!!
I have started the install of the Type S/C intercooler,..... I took the IMRC control off and put it up on the shelf.
It's allmost impossible to go below 10:1 now, and when it does, it just bumps it and then heads back up as the RPM's go up. I'm seing high 10's and low 11's, and that really wakes this blower car up!! I have started the install of the Type S/C intercooler,..... I took the IMRC control off and put it up on the shelf.
09-20-2003, 06:31 PM
#240
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Cool and congrats; the headers are wonderful and definitely open up the top end. It is so nice pulling to redline without the feel of acceleration letting up. As expected, the greater exhaust scavenging is leaning it out a bit, but what is the boost level doing?? Any changes there??
Dang, I haven't even got the first base plate made and you are already getting prepared.
Dang, I haven't even got the first base plate made and you are already getting prepared.