mantis23

WakAttack came over today to install the brake lines. Without going into detail, lets just say it didn't take an hour like we expected. More like 6 hours. We ran into a little problem when bleeding the brake lines, but I am really happy with the results.

We went out to a deserted strip to test out stopping distance on the brake lines. We only tried it twice. Both times we got up to about 60 mph (correct me if I'm wrong Wak). I didn't 'mash completly on the gas the first time, so Wak stopped about 1 car length before me.

The second time I gave the brakes all I had and stopped about 1 car length before Wak. All and all I'm happy with the $100 purchase. As Wak can tell you, the install is simple. Its bleeding the brake lines that gives you the headache. Don't waste your money by having someone else do it.

Here is one of the small problems we ran into. We seemed to have the most problems with the install on the last line. Figures.

While working on the last line,
we put the last screw to the test...
we wanted to see what he was really made of...
we asked the screw if he was a man, or a little boy...

We found out was is still a boy. He couldn't take the pressure of being a man. Here is the proof of his adolescence...







It made us question the craftsmanship on some of these aftermarket products.

bnavarro

hate to say it boys but every screw has a torque rating on it. So, now every bolt on ur cars is about to break off just when u need to stop the most because u wanted to test ur stregth. That's why most people have problems with there cars. Question, What is the purpose of ss brake lines and how does it improve ur stopping power?

SilverKnight

Check this thread from ATL for more info.

http://www.acura-tl.com/forum/showth...threadid=34927

Now I'm heading out to put in the SS brakelines

EricL

RE: purpose of brake lines -- they don't make that much of a difference when the car is "brand new" (VERY NEW). When a car is new, most of the factory brake lines only swell a little bit. As time goes on, the factory lines get "mushy" (note: some people will argue this point, and it depends on the car, time, make, and do forth). The SS lines don’t expand as much under pressure. There is a lot of pressure in the brake system when you hit the brakes, and factory lines make for a "mushy" feel (the longer I've had my cars, the mushier they've gotten).

RE: if someone puts in a "good" set of SS lines, it generally feels like there is a "tighter" feel between the brake pedal and the braking action of the "binders" (brakes). Along with some new brake fluid and or some high quality DOT4 fluid, the feel can be much better (the bleeding is a must do as brake fluid absorbs water like crazy [hygroscopic] and once it gets enough water in it, it will “bubble” like crazy with very little heating).
BTW -- The Goodridge carbo covered lines have a nice coating to prevent fraying (and the bulk of the problems with “some” SS lines comes from the outside braid getting frayed or having someone do a lousy crimp job on the fittings

So, quick answer: better feel, control and *firmness*…

The downside is related to Acura warranty – if you have a problem, like any other part, you are on your own. The SS lines need inspection to make sure they are in good shape. There have been a “few” people with other makes of lines and cars that have had “failures”, and have been lucky to not have died with their brakes going out! (I think the Acura NSX forum will point this out).


MANTIS:

What kind of torque were you guys trying to apply to the Goodridge bolt when it went away? I can’t tell if you are using a little “tongue in check” or if you really were giving the bolt a “crash”/”bolt buster” test…

Did you guys use the factory (DOT3) or higher BP fluid (Motul, ATE, etc)????

EricS

www.speedbleeder.com

mantis23

We didn't have a torque wrench, so we were just 'guesstimating' how tight it should have been. We weren't really doing the bolt buster test.

Here is a pic of the brake fluid we used.

mdaniel

I thought Honda brake system went to hell if you used non-Honda approved fluid. Same with the cooling and steering.

mantis23

I sure as hell hope thats not the case. I saw that some other folks used non-honda brake fluid, so I figured I'd be in the clear with this.

mdaniel

I think it has something to do with the seals and/or lubrication. Hondas have a reputation for being fussy about the fluids. For example, there's plenty of stories of people using top quality, ultra premium, but NON-HONDA tranny fluid and it just doesn't work right.

Scooter

i wonder what brand Park Ave uses...either Comptech or AEM i thought...less than 5 days to go!!

EricL

I see use the Honda/Acura "approved" fluids notes in all the manuals... This is the first car I've had where they didn't have a list of "commercial" equivalents that were "OK" to use (and not just in a pinch).

I have one friend who is using the ATE blue/orange and the dealer happily puts the stuff in (as to how the dealer enters the info -- who knows).

If there ever was a brake seal (or other) problem that could be traced to some incompatibility, I think one would be on shaky ground. However, speed shops have been putting in Motul and ATE fluids in the Hondas and Acuras for years without problems...

Just be sure to stay away from silicone DOT5 fluid. (It has it uses and I've used it, but would never put it in the Acura)...

YMMV

EricL

You mentioned the one fluid that I would be "uncomfortable" about changing from "factory brand" at this moment at time (all though, I thank the pioneers for their efforts)

bnavarro

you also have to be careful that the stock screws are the same size as the ones provided with the kit. I'm not talking same thread. The length and placement of the hole in the bolt. The bolt has a hole for the fluid to pass though it. Be carefull because the distances could be different. If the hole is higher up, it could reduce the amout of fluid going to the calpers. I would order new bolts and torque them down. I used to work in a auto repair shop but i don't know everything. Good Luck!!!!1

bnavarro

There's also a special way to blead brakes. don't just pump and open the valve. I'm not trying to bust ball. Just don't want to see someone get hurt. Brakes are one thing you don't want to mess with.

mantis23

Thanks for all the input guys. It looks like I need to order another bolt. The stock bolt and the goodridge bolt were not the same length. I can't find my manual to look up the list of OK brake fluid types. I think I left the manual in WakAttacks car.

mantis23

Hmm, are you saying you would never use anything but honda brake fluid? I'm just a bit confused as to what you mean.

EricL

I probably didn't communicate the "fluid" issue well...

My manual is back up the street, but you will probably see the, "use Honda/Acura brake fluid" (It's a DOT3 fluid )

If you are interested, there are a lot of people using:

Motul 600 (can get from Tim at ACP and other fine locations). ACP brake page: http://www.autocarparts.com/search/r...hp3?cat=Brakes

ATE SUPER BLUE (and the AMBER stuff)

link to nsxhelp.com/brakeupg page: http://www.nsxhelp.com/brakeupg/

"...

One approach is to simply switch to a brake fluid with a higher boiling temperature. Some popular choices are Motul 600, which is a DOT 4 fluid with a dry boiling point of 585 degrees F, or ATE Super Blue which has a dry boiling point of 513 degrees F, both of which are higher than the regular Honda fluid.

..."

With the ATE, you can switch from the Blue to Amber and thus tell if it is "really" changed (a good thing to keep "some" dealers "honest")

EricL

Didn't say that...


I still have the factory fluid in the system. However, I will be putting in the ATE in a few months (see post above).

Quote from Helms (it is the Acura Factory Service Manual):

"Alway use Genuine Honda DOT 3 Brake Fluid. Using a non-Honda brake fluid can cause corrosion and decrease the life of the system" (page 19-8)

They said it (ACURA), not me...

I'm willing to take the chance with some high BP fluid and others have done so with great success.

As with all things, if you stick with factory "everything", they(Acura) are on the hook for fixing any problems during the warranty.

Once you start modifying, you get into a "gray" area. For example, if the brake lines fail, I don't think Acura will be helping out with any warranty issues (it's not theirs). If you happen to put in some fluid that does have a "problem" and they find corrosion and identify some chemical that is NOT compatible with their system, you get to pay.

For example, on other cars, they would simply say, use DOT3 or higher fluid (or a fluid that conforms to standard xxx,yyy, etc).

wakattack

In my defense, I wasn't pushing on that bolt very hard at all, probably around 25-30 lbs, It didnt' compare in quality to the factory bolt at all. The failure occured in the little feeder tube.
I was just trying to get it snug enuff to tighten the copper washers. I wasn't putting very much strength into it. I'd
say the stock one was made of brass, and the aftermarket
a chromealloy.

I compared the feeder tube position between the two, were the same. The thread lengths were different, but the feeder position was the same. So Mantis should be good, altough I'd go ahead and get them to send another one out. I will help you install it when it gets in.. (This time with a lot less pressure)

Not sure the exact details, but does it REQUIRE or RECOMMEND Honda brake fluid? If it doesn't REQUIRE, then wararnty shouldn't be an issue, because, the fluid he used will have certifications to meet all DOT requirements for DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluids..

In the compairson, his CL was stopping almost a car length quicker from say 80, than my new TL-S (1k miles)

wakattack

Whhopps. I see EricL seemed to post that they Honda fluid is a requirement..

SilverKnight

The user manual specifically spells out to use only Honda's DOT3 fluid, other DOT3 or DOT4 can be used as temporary replacement only and the brake system will need to be bled and replace with with Honda's DOT3 ASAP.

So I'll put in SS brakeline with Honda's DOT3 now

bnavarro

no need to defend yourself. The directions should have said to torque them down. I was just trying to give a helpful hand.

mantis23

I just went around the block to get a better feel for the brakes. Everything feels great. I'm not 'pulling' to either side when braking. About the only thing left to be done is hook up with some honda dot 3 motor oil, and I'm set.

wakattack

How is the best way to swap out the fluid? Is there a dye you can add to the fluid, so that you know you have pushed all the old stuff out?

The stuff Mantis used was a nice golden color, and I remember the Honda fluid or what was in their had the same color as well.

Suppose a search on Flushing Brake system is in order.

SilverKnight

Damn ... even with the head-up from Mantis and the use of a torque wrench, I still managed to broke a bolt.
I set the torque wrench according to the HELM but before I got there, the bolt was gone. I have to put a stock bolt there. The only difference between the stock bolt and Goodridge bolt is the length which should not have anything to do with the functionality of the brake.

Mantis, let me know how you order a bolt from Goodridge. Thanks.

EricL

That's the nice thing about the ATE Super Blue / Amber -- you switch to the blue, and until you see "pure blue", you haven't cleared the old brake fluid out.

On the next "bleed", you run the Amber through and you are pretty much done when you only see blue...

And, yes its DOT4 and not the "official" factory fluid.

(Whenever I used to bleed-out my systems, I would just overkill on buying new fluid and I'd pump it through until it was "super clean". I do remember some stuff for cleaning lines, but my race buddy told me to avoid the stuff. The only time I got "anal" was with a change to silicone/DOT5 [long story] and changed all the seals in the calipers (front/rear) and the master cylinder; in that instance I just pumped the system "dry" and ran TONS of the DOT5 through the system until it was "purged"...)

Something that might help:

http://www.griotsgarage.com/search.jsp?searchtext=brake



BTW -- if the car is a CLS, there is "Honda DOT3" fluid in the VSA "pump" unit and it has a reservoir that needs to be purged (a normal flush won't get at that stuff).

mantis23

Damn, sorry to hear that happened to you too. I'll let ya know how the bolt order comes along. I'm going to call them in the morning.