Only in your dreams.

 

No I'm actually quite awake.

 

i think the answer is very simple here, the CL-S is a superior car (for many many reasons), but the GTP is, in most cases faster and without a doubt easier to mod.

 

BINGO

 

I beg to differ. Nevermind actually a cl-s is based on a at the most a 2 yr old design, whilst the GPs are around 8 yrs old.

 

i know we really shouldnt have to go down this list about WHY we know the CL-S is a superior car but here is a PARTIAL list...

-HID headlights
-17" rims
-heated mirrors
-6 CD in dash changer
-Navigation
-MUCH better quality leather
-MUCH more efficent motor (260 N/A hp from 3.2 vs. 240 supercharged hp from 3.8)
-DUAL heated seats
-Honda reliability
-MUCH better warrenty
-TLC (Total Luxury Care)
-MUCH better interior quality, fit and finish
-better than GTP (but still not that great) factory sound system
-simply put....its an Acura....entry level luxury...vs...Pontiac...which is what? economy performance?
-reverse tilt down mirror
-auto up/down driver window
-much more refined suspension
-better quality materials


thats just what i could think of off the top of my head, and to be fair (and being the GTP enthusiast that i am) i will list what i love about the GTP

-Heads up display
-much better factory tires
-dual climate control zones
-great aftermarket support
-awesome performance potential with mods.



so to each his own, but its truely safe to say that the CL-S is without a doubt, the superior car.

 

Much more efficient motor HAHAHA.

the 3.8 is a much better motor, it's cleaner burning, a much more stout engine overall. "economy performance" don't be stupid. These cars cost close to 30 grand. Our overall powertrains are way better than a CL-s's

Your motors are making more HP, not TQ stock cause of a much higher compression ratio. I'd like to see how much boost you guys can run when that SC comes out, I'm willing to bet it'll be under 10 PSI.

 

we dont have a pushrod, iron block engine and our compression ratio is already quite high so yes, our boost levels will be limited with the S/C but seriously a GTP for 30k?? hahahahahaha

you can get them brand new at any dealer for 24k or less with all the discounts and insentives these days, the dealers are practically GIVING them away.

oh and cleaner burning??? is the GTP certified as LEV??? what about the normal CL, that one is ULEV??? and a GTP is cleaner burning?? whateva dude!!

 

Actually yes they are cleaner burning, shit there was a study done, by some firm, shit I forgot but it's cleaner burning than a cl-s, and the VQ engines also. Why do you think they are now around 24 K with all these incentives and shit. Cause the new GP's are coming out in Feb/March. Gotta clear out the inventory.

You wanna see what this engine is made of herehttp://www.thrashercharged.com/L67_htm/engine_tear.shtm

They tear down a L67 (3800), and take a look at the internals and shit. This engine has alot of race preped features.

 

Intresting criteria for what makes a more "superior" car. You obviously hold priorities in different areas.

 

Economy performance...AHAHAHHHAHAHAAHAHA!!!!!

I'm still rolling on that one.

 

I have to disagree on this one......The CL-S has a much better engine than the 3800. The only thing that makes the 3800 appealing is its torque. Look at the non-supercharged version, its a decent engine, but nothing special. It is quick to about 40 mph and then falls flat on its face. The 3800 engine was designed 40+ years ago and has been outdated for years. It is lacking many of the modern features, such as Variable Valve timing for example.

 

I geuss the fact it's been voted one of the top ten engines by I think Ward's over the last 100 yrs doesn't matter either.

Did you even read thec article I linked??

It is a more stouter engine.

Fuckit. These cars are capable of 11s no nos. I'd love to see a cl-s do that when there Sc comes out. Oh yeah the 11's was with no IC either.

Why don't you read the article?

EDIT: The 3800 was designed 40 yrs ago. It was a SBC V8 with two cylinders cut off.

 

I read the article....Look at the current 10 best engines, I dont see the 3800 anywhere there. The 3800 is a good solid engine, dont get me wrong, but its very dated. I believe GM fortified the internals for the S/C version, but I could be wrong. That will explain why it is so durable under high hp.

 

I linked this thread to clubGP, there are more qualified ppl to explain these engines.

I've already warned them no flaming, or BSing.

 

Hey im not knocking the 3800, its a very reliable engine. It just isnt the greatest on the market right now. I could name 10 engines off the top of my head currently out that are superior. GM makes good engines, look at the Northstar and LS6 for example...

 

Wow, this thread is still alive. Here's my $.02.

They are both great engines!!! The CL-S uses the latest and greatest technology to create HP and reliablilty. The 3800 uses 40+ years of coninuous improvement to do it. The 3800 is cheaper and more compact. Both engines are very economical(MPG), the CLS is 1 MPG higher on the highway(28 vs 29). Which is amazing considering my old 1988 Escort GT(110hp and manual tranny) only got 31 HWY. Lets see 130 and 150 HP for only 2-3 MPG(and in automatic!!!). I think we're splitting hairs on economy.

It comes down to preference, do you like the neck snapping torque of a blown pushrod engine, or do you prefer the smooth build up of power with a screaming top end. To each his own, I just wish I could have both!!!

As far as refinement, since the 3800 is a bit rough up top, I'd give the nod to the CLS.

Which is better, well, I drive a Regal GS so I think the 3800 is better, but it is just my opinion, not fact. I bought mine partially based on the over 300,000 miles my sister in-laws 93 Regal has on it. All original except power antenae and alternator(X2).

They are both great engines.

 

My $.02....

I am one of the few CLS owners that usually defends GM and I actually defended the 3800 in a discussion where someone was bashing it.... My parents have owned many 3800 powered cars over the years which I have driven. I used to love them because they were all I knew. Try out our engine, and you will finally know what you are missing (in a refinement sense)

The CLS engine is a superior engine.
Yes, the 3800 is a great design.... Cheap, can take a beating, etc... but the CLS engine is FAR more refined.

260hp out of only 3.2L is also impressive - 81.25 hp/L while the NA 3800 is 52.6HP/L and makes LESS TORQUE than our supposed wimpy Honda engines. Yup.... the 3800 NA makes ONLY 225lb/ft of Torque. Very efficient from .6 more L

Sure with the blower you make much more torque (280), but you have to use forced induction to do it.

Don't get me wrong. The 3800 S/C is a nice engine, and fast, but once you drive CL-S engine, you will definitely KNOW the difference.

 

'
Please tell me what you been smoking, because I would like to have some.

 

You couldn't afford what I smoke. And I read that study awhile ago, forgot the name of the ppl who did it. You don't want to believe it fine, I've done my homework on this engine, now I'm looking, and trying to find info on the 3.2. I know for a fact that the 3.8 is a superior engine.

It's all good though, you guys believe your shit is better, I believe mine is better. I'm not gonna change your mind, your not gonna change my mind. But let me say this when I'm modding the shit out of my car, and your modding the shit out of yours', and we're both starting to push 400-450 HP (when your SC and IC comes out) I'm gonna have alot more faith in the 3800 to take the abuse. One more thing the 3800 is not internally modified to handle the SC.


It's good to see no flaming, I'm loving this good clean disscusion.

 

Not this again, you guys have to use v-tec to get torque. C-mon, its not how you do it, its that you do it. That arguement is the same as, well, out GTP cost $XXXX less, so that makes ours better. It is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Again, whether you use low tech - blower- or high tech - Vtech doesnt matter, neither is inherently better. The output, reliablility, and refinement(NVH) are probably the most relevant areas for discussion. And I give 2 out of those 3 to the 3800.

I have driven a CL-S and my friends new TL-S, and they are great, but I prefer to get immediate torque, and therefore, I actually prefer my car's powerplant. I hope that is not too hard to believe. For freeway driving, I'd probably take the CLS, but for city and mountain driving, I prefer torque.

 

I'd take the L67, with a rockers, and a DHP PCM.:P

 

this is a very good conversation, but seriously, if the 3800 is so clean burning, why isnt it ULEV like the CL 3.2 motor???? hmmmm

also, the low price point of the GTP has been going on for at least a year now, its not just because of inventory clearance, its just that no one is willing to pay 30k for that thing, its selling for what its worth....roughly 25k

 

I can promise you the VQ is better than our engine and yours for sure. That engine has been on that list since 1995. And still going. Like wards says. It's the engine that other manufactures should learn from.

 

First off, you can't take stock numbers to mean anything when you are talking about a GM engine. it is well known that GM chokes it's engines for whatever reason they have for doing it. Opening up the intake and exhaust of a GTP and putting an appropirate pulley on the supercharger can potentially knock about 1 sec off of an otherwise stock L67. (3800 S/C) That is less than $200 in mods that should have come that way from the factory, but probably didn't because it would make a family sedan that would be encroaching on the F-bodies. (which are underrated and chocked so that they don't get too close to the Vette.)

Also someone said that the 3800 isn't a good engine because it is an old pushrod design and not a new DOHC type design. But then you went and said that the LS6 is a remarkable engine. i would just like to point out that the LT1, LT4 (im pretty sure), LS1, LS6, L36, and L67 are ALL pushrod engines. Now compare these the their competition. LT1, LS1 vs. Ford 4.6 l V-8..... no competition. You have to add a Blower to a DOHC Cobra engine to match the performance of an LS6 or LT4 or two more cyliners and over 2.3 liters of displacement like the Viper. L36 vs 24V ford 6 cylinder or the CL engine, or the Nissan sentra's engine or anything else in its class... the L36 is going to win. L67 vs CL-S, or 4.6 L Ford V8, Nissan Maxima and Altima engine... these alll can be beaten in the 1/4 mile a Stock GTP... modify it to open up what should be it's factory power and driver not-with-standing all of these cars will fall to an Old outdated engine with an inefficient Eaton Roots type blower.

What it comes down to is despite years of technological advancement GM has been able to continually make an old design in to a class competing (if not leading) engine. This is wy the 3800 is a better engine, and why I will keep going back to GM year after year.

I have no doubt that your engine is smooth running, and has a lot of top end power. One of my favorite engines of all time was the one on the early '90s Acura Legends. But just because it is Japanesse, and has PERCEIVED better quality doesn't mean anything when it can only compete on a good day, and fall back on a bad day, to an old proven design. (for those of you that still have this misconception that American cars won't last as long as a Japanesse car, I point you to the Club GP boards where MANY people who have taken care of their 3800 series engine are well over 100,000 miles with plenty of hard driving and modifcations and their engine is still running like the day they bought it.)

Really when it comes down to it this is all about personal preferences. I prefer to get thrown back into make seat when I stomp on the gas, while other prefer the mild acceleration and higher top speeds. Real world im not planning on seeing 130 mph too pften, but 0-70 or 80 i see rather often and I prefer to be the first one there, not second. (I have a vette in my future. )

 

Oh well hell, i know i'm convinced!

 

Nice post Black2k, and yes I can testify as I have 120K on my L67 that has been modded since about 40K, and it runs as strong as ever. Thank you Mobil 1.

Later,

 

I have almost 110,000, extremley hard driven miles, and it is still purrs. Like GTPguy97 said thanks mobil 1 tri-syn.

 

That is very good mileage on a GTP thats been driven hard....and your saying you never had a problem with it, I mean non whatso ever even if you fixed it yourself. If not!!! Your one of the lucky ones! I would keep that baby! I use Mobil 1 too and I must say I love it

 

Any modern engine will last long with proper preventive maintence. The 3800 is an old design, but its had years of refinement to it. Is it one of the best engines on the market.....No. Modabilty and 1/4 times do not make up a good engine. If so the 5.0 would be at the top of the list. Compare apples to apples......a VQ or CL-S vs. a non-supercharged 3800.

 

To change the subject, we ran again tonight...

GTP vs CLS

This time he was running 10psi with a new belt. That SC is louder for sure! hehehee

All runs were up to 110 mph.

Anyways, each time didn't matter he got the jump on me off the line. More TQ just let him pull 1 car ahead and I sat on his rear bumper once I hit vtec.

A 30 mph roll, either it was dead even or I inched a hair on him sometimes or he did the same. It was just a tie every time we ran. Till we hit about 80 then I started to pull on him a bit, not much till we let off, maybe 1/4 a car or so.

We ran at least 6 times tonight but no video. He should be posting on TRS tomorrow or tonight.

I am stock only mufflers.

1/4 the GTP owns us, but a roll, its defintely a different story.

But that is with a modded GTP. If it wasn't modded and stock, I believe we will defintely own the GTP either way.

 

So you telling me just with headers you got'em Right! Go get your modds done I/H/E and then see whats up!

 

Headers defintely would make me own that GTP! :P

 

15.3

 

hahaahaahahaha

 

http://www.clubgp.com/forum/topic.as...+comparison%29

GTP board. They really think there 3800 is so much cleaner.

I believe Honda was rated and Nissan the cleanest engines ever made in a few of there cars.

LOL. The 3800 is a nice engine we have had a few in our family. But by all means its not cleaner. Cough, TQ makes the better engine? right, then how come my no TQ engine can stay with a modded GTP? lol

Our engine was rated ULEV, the 3800 has not yet been rated at that. Must be a reason.

 

Must be a reason why GM needs Honda to make better emissions vehicles. lol. Sorry but all the GM engines need help in that area.

From Autonews:

Most of the Honda and Acura models sold nationwide meet the strict Low Emission Vehicle (LEV) standards created for the state of California. Though no regulations require it, Honda has already sold more than one million low emission vehicles nationwide -- the only automaker to do so. The 2000 Accord was the first mass-produced vehicle to meet the advanced Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) status. In 1999 Honda and Acura sold more than 715,000 low emission vehicles -- or 66% of total sales. Honda also launched the Honda Insight gas-electric hybrid car -- the most fuel-efficient car in U.S. EPA history, while also meeting the ULEV emission levels. While the Civic GX natural-gas vehicle is the cleanest internal combustion vehicle in history and is certified as SULEV.

And:

July 24, 2000

GM TO BUY 450,000 HONDA's low-emission engines

General Motors Corp. agreed to buy low-emission engines from Honda Motor Co. in a move by the world's largest automaker to hold down costs as it puts cleaner cars on the road.

Japan's No. 2 carmaker will sell 90,000 powertrain units, consisting of low-polluting V-6 engines and automatic transmissions, to GM annually starting in 2003. The agreement follows an arrangement worked out in December under which Honda also will buy diesel engines from GM affiliate Isuzu Motor Ltd.
Honda is to sell a total of 450,000 of its ultralow-emission vehicle (ULEV) engines to GM in a five-year period starting in the second half of 2003. The Japanese automaker declined to say how much it expects to earn from sales to GM.
The engines will help GM meet California's environmental standards, which require major automakers to sell a certain percentage of vehicles with ultralow-emission engines.

"GM has said it plans to put Honda engines on Saturn (models)," said Honda President Hiroyuki Yoshino in a May interview. "We are still discussing when, how many and which models we will start supplying our engines to."
Isuzu is to provide diesel engines to Honda, mainly for its European models, though specifics haven't been announced.
"We're still deciding on the details of the agreement" between Honda and Isuzu, said Honda Managing Director Hiroshi Okubo in an interview.
The relationship between Honda and Detroit-based GM "includes no equity stake by either company in the other, and each will continue independent technology development activities," the automakers said in a statement.

 

All you got on us is a free screen. That the only thing that I consider better than a GTP and maybe HID's


Acura. Ha!

Peace
Steven

 

I can not believe how pathetic this conversation has become. You are now quoting GM Corporations purchasing habits, wow grow the fuck up. Both sides need to re-evalutate their arguements. You are both annoying as shit. (Of course it's only a select few on each side) Who gives a flying rats ass whose car has a "cleaner" engine. Both cars are near the same class, which means, purchased new either car is affordable.
If everyone on this planet bickered like you children, the world would have lots more fossil fuels, you'd all be dead. Move on....

 

I should apologize, I did not bring proof into the cleaner burning argument. I should have before I stated that. I know it's somewhere around, but I can't find it. So I'll conceit that to the 3.2.

But I do know that when it comes to durability, reliability, and overall stoutness, the 3800 wins hands down. Though the 3.2 is a far more technologically advanced engine.

That's all on this little arguement, I've said my piece.