Nitrogen in tires
11-01-2004, 02:10 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Nitrogen in tires
Buddy says Costco now offers nitrogen in its new tires.
Allegedly over time the poundage does not fluctuate one iota.
Anybody checked this out?
Allegedly over time the poundage does not fluctuate one iota.
Anybody checked this out?
11-01-2004, 02:16 PM
#2
Adventurist.
Nitrogen Instead of Air
Most of the teams remove the air from the tires and replace it with nitrogen. Compressed nitrogen contains less moisture than compressed air. When the tire heats up, moisture in the tire vaporizes and expands, causing the pressure inside the tire to increase. Even small changes in tire pressure can noticeably affect the handling of the car. By using nitrogen instead of air, the teams have more control over how much the pressure will increase when the tires heat up.
Most of the teams remove the air from the tires and replace it with nitrogen. Compressed nitrogen contains less moisture than compressed air. When the tire heats up, moisture in the tire vaporizes and expands, causing the pressure inside the tire to increase. Even small changes in tire pressure can noticeably affect the handling of the car. By using nitrogen instead of air, the teams have more control over how much the pressure will increase when the tires heat up.
11-01-2004, 02:23 PM
#4
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Originally Posted by NiteQwill
So... accordingly, it would be useless for daily driving. Periodic tire maintenance is all we'll ever need. 
I mean if you're paying $500+ for a set of tires, i'd take every advantage I could get to extend the lifetime of them.
11-01-2004, 02:42 PM
#5
Where is my super sauce?
Originally Posted by slyraskal
But woudln't it help with less wear and tear on the tire because the tire doesn't expand and contract as much over the life of the tire?
I mean if you're paying $500+ for a set of tires, i'd take every advantage I could get to extend the lifetime of them.
I mean if you're paying $500+ for a set of tires, i'd take every advantage I could get to extend the lifetime of them.
)Of course this might be important if you are moving your tires from extremes in ambient pressure or heat -- from the vacuum of space to the Jovian atmosphere. Does anyone know the expansion coefficients of air vs. 100% N2 and how much they differ? ...I digress
Maybe for a show car that's going to have the same tires on for 20-30 years, or for racing as cited above -- but apart from sounding cool it sounds like a gimmick to me.
11-01-2004, 02:54 PM
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One tire place near me used to do this and I ran Nitrogen in my Legend’s tires for years.
They charged something like an additional 2-3 dollars when the tires were mounted.
The extra cost was because I guess they need to “purge” the air the first time like when you fill an LP gas tank.
If you stopped back they offered lifetime pressure checks and “topping off” whenever you needed it.
It’s supposed to also prevent corroding of your rims from the INSIDE due to moisture in the air.
They offered this service for several years then stopped it all together due to lack of demand.
I guess it's gaining interest again.
They charged something like an additional 2-3 dollars when the tires were mounted.
The extra cost was because I guess they need to “purge” the air the first time like when you fill an LP gas tank.
If you stopped back they offered lifetime pressure checks and “topping off” whenever you needed it.
It’s supposed to also prevent corroding of your rims from the INSIDE due to moisture in the air.
They offered this service for several years then stopped it all together due to lack of demand.
I guess it's gaining interest again.
11-01-2004, 02:54 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Slimey
Good point, but how many tires have you had that rotted before the tread wore down? Besides, tires are made to expand and contract by a few PSI during use. AFAIK, tires have been doing this since Mr. Goodyear vulcanized some rubber -- I'm not sure what drive there is for this 'advance' (although I would guess it's like a lot of things -- cost -- maybe Costco got a deal on compressed N2 )
Of course this might be important if you are moving your tires from extremes in ambient pressure or heat -- from the vacuum of space to the Jovian atmosphere. Does anyone know the expansion coefficients of air vs. 100% N2 and how much they differ? ...I digress
Maybe for a show car that's going to have the same tires on for 20-30 years, or for racing as cited above -- but apart from sounding cool it sounds like a gimmick to me.
)Of course this might be important if you are moving your tires from extremes in ambient pressure or heat -- from the vacuum of space to the Jovian atmosphere. Does anyone know the expansion coefficients of air vs. 100% N2 and how much they differ? ...I digress
Maybe for a show car that's going to have the same tires on for 20-30 years, or for racing as cited above -- but apart from sounding cool it sounds like a gimmick to me.
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11-01-2004, 02:58 PM
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Supposedly the nitrogen particles are larger then air and less likely to weep through microscopic holes in the rubber & metal.
That’s another reason the pressure holds better and all the race teams use it.
That’s another reason the pressure holds better and all the race teams use it.
11-01-2004, 03:42 PM
#9
Meat stick
Originally Posted by Shawn S
Supposedly the nitrogen particles are larger then air and less likely to weep through microscopic holes in the rubber & metal.
That’s another reason the pressure holds better and all the race teams use it.
That’s another reason the pressure holds better and all the race teams use it.
Anyone who knows any chemistry will tell you that is complete crap. The main component of "air" is nitrogen, so this is crap. Besides the fact when you start talking about "size" differences in those molecules, the difference is not really enough to make any mechanical difference.
Also, most air compressors have a dryer unit attached to get most of the water out of the air they spew. Since the air is quite dry, there would probably be very little reason to use this in a street car. Both air and nitrogen expand with heat at the exact same ratio, since they are both gases. I really don't see any reason to use N2 instead of air, I think it is probably more of a gimmick.
11-01-2004, 04:26 PM
#10
11-01-2004, 06:27 PM
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From Ingersoll-Rand about their new Nitrogen Tire Filling System:
Nitrogen -- a dry, inert gas used by racing professionals and the U.S. military to inflate racecar tires and military vehicles, respectively -- leaks through a tire's rubber walls three times more slowly than oxygen. As a result, tires filled with high-quality nitrogen delivered by IR's system stay inflated longer, which allows them to grip the road better and provide greater control in all weather conditions.
Nitrogen -- a dry, inert gas used by racing professionals and the U.S. military to inflate racecar tires and military vehicles, respectively -- leaks through a tire's rubber walls three times more slowly than oxygen. As a result, tires filled with high-quality nitrogen delivered by IR's system stay inflated longer, which allows them to grip the road better and provide greater control in all weather conditions.
11-01-2004, 06:37 PM
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The amount of air that leaks through rubber is negligible and with proper maintenance (i.e., checking inflation) this point is mute. And I don't see how the lack of leaking air would provide a higher level of grip. It might improve the length of the tire's life (although, as previously stated, the life of the tire normally ends due to tire wear not from rot) but I don't see how this correlates to the performance the tire provides.
11-01-2004, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JaredGMS
Anyone who knows any chemistry will tell you that is complete crap. The main component of "air" is nitrogen, so this is crap. Besides the fact when you start talking about "size" differences in those molecules, the difference is not really enough to make any mechanical difference.
......
Besides, I’m not selling it…just repeating what was told to me and what was in the brochure they gave me.
Is it true that NASCAR, F1 Indycar & such use Nitrogen or is that BS too ???
11-01-2004, 08:19 PM
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11-01-2004, 08:42 PM
#15
Suzuka Master
If you want to keep something in great shape, store it in nitrogen.
OTOH, there is a rather big problem that happens to people ALL the time when it comes to tire pressures. It's called changes in ambient temperature. Search on “Ideal Gas Law.
I have been called many times with a, "Why are my tires' pressures reading so low all of sudden?" When I ask if they just had a cold front move in, the answer is, "Huh?" So, I ask, "Is it really cold today compared with yesterday?" Answer (in 99% of cases): YES, How did you know?
So, where are you going to get the extra nitrogen to put in your tires when the weather goes cold? Better have a plan and/or get a tank of clean-dry nitrogen to keep around for pumping up the tires when the weather changes.
Nitrogen is great stuff, and with all high-technology pursuits, it has its use and place. However, if you are going to pay to have it put in your tires, realize that the tire's cold pressure (what you see in the AM before the car moves) will largely depend on ambient temperature. The air pressure you should put in your car is the COLD AIR PRESSURE. IOW, make sure you can get more nitrogen if you don't want to be wasting your money.
OTOH, there is a rather big problem that happens to people ALL the time when it comes to tire pressures. It's called changes in ambient temperature. Search on “Ideal Gas Law.
I have been called many times with a, "Why are my tires' pressures reading so low all of sudden?" When I ask if they just had a cold front move in, the answer is, "Huh?" So, I ask, "Is it really cold today compared with yesterday?" Answer (in 99% of cases): YES, How did you know?
So, where are you going to get the extra nitrogen to put in your tires when the weather goes cold? Better have a plan and/or get a tank of clean-dry nitrogen to keep around for pumping up the tires when the weather changes.
Nitrogen is great stuff, and with all high-technology pursuits, it has its use and place. However, if you are going to pay to have it put in your tires, realize that the tire's cold pressure (what you see in the AM before the car moves) will largely depend on ambient temperature. The air pressure you should put in your car is the COLD AIR PRESSURE. IOW, make sure you can get more nitrogen if you don't want to be wasting your money.
11-01-2004, 08:46 PM
#16
Suzuka Master
How about why for aircraft?
Originally Posted by Shawn S
I was never good at chemistry.
Besides, I’m not selling it…just repeating what was told to me and what was in the brochure they gave me.
Is it true that NASCAR, F1 Indycar & such use Nitrogen or is that BS too ???
Besides, I’m not selling it…just repeating what was told to me and what was in the brochure they gave me.
Is it true that NASCAR, F1 Indycar & such use Nitrogen or is that BS too ???
Airplane info and link: http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae192.cfm
Question
The tires of airplanes (at least the big ones) are inflated by nitrogen (instead of air). Why is this done?
Asked by: Fernand Zwickl
Answer
Air has a certain moisture content and it is generally very hard to remove this moisture. If an airplane tires were filled with air, at the flight altitude ice would form inside the tires since the temp up there is about -30 degrees F. Landing with a chunk of ice in the tire would make it out of balance and change the tire pressure. Tires would probably burst.
On the other hand, nitrogen doesn't form a liquid till -173C and pure nitrogen has almost no moisture.
In addition, consider if the brakes overheat and cause a fire. The nitrogen will not burn, but air has oxygen which will feed the fire. Jet airline tires are fused. When the fuse is heated it deflates the tire so they don't explode.
Answered by: Scott Grasmick, B.A., Health Physicist, Bremerton, WA
The huge tires on aircraft are expensive, and difficult to mount and dismount. They are also subjected to tremendous forces on landing when they must accelerate very quickly. The friction on touch-down creates great heat within the tires and produces very high stresses in the walls of the carcass.
Therefore, every effort is made to reduce or eliminate the deterioration caused over time by oxidation.
Since normal atmospheric air is approximately 20% oxygen, the tires are inflated with 100% nitrogen - a relatively inert gas.
Answered by: Dick Brill, B.S.
11-01-2004, 09:10 PM
#17
Meat stick
Originally Posted by TampaBayCLS
From Ingersoll-Rand about their new Nitrogen Tire Filling System:
Nitrogen -- a dry, inert gas used by racing professionals and the U.S. military to inflate racecar tires and military vehicles, respectively -- leaks through a tire's rubber walls three times more slowly than oxygen. As a result, tires filled with high-quality nitrogen delivered by IR's system stay inflated longer, which allows them to grip the road better and provide greater control in all weather conditions.
Nitrogen -- a dry, inert gas used by racing professionals and the U.S. military to inflate racecar tires and military vehicles, respectively -- leaks through a tire's rubber walls three times more slowly than oxygen. As a result, tires filled with high-quality nitrogen delivered by IR's system stay inflated longer, which allows them to grip the road better and provide greater control in all weather conditions.
11-01-2004, 09:11 PM
#18
Meat stick
Originally Posted by EricL
NASCAR, F1, etc: ==> YES and...
Airplane info and link: http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae192.cfm
Airplane info and link: http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae192.cfm
11-02-2004, 12:32 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by slyraskal
Where's the dyno?!?!?
I don't need no stinking dyno, I can FEEEL it
11-02-2004, 12:50 PM
#22
CLS 6MT Navi
So if I have nitro in my tires and have a low tire and add plain air to fill it up will it explode like a nitrogen bomb...cool.
maybe hydrogen would be good too, lighter than air, better performance, mpg and less weight for the blimps we drive.
maybe hydrogen would be good too, lighter than air, better performance, mpg and less weight for the blimps we drive.
11-02-2004, 01:08 PM
#23
Meat stick
Originally Posted by 123456SPEED
So if I have nitro in my tires and have a low tire and add plain air to fill it up will it explode like a nitrogen bomb...cool.
maybe hydrogen would be good too, lighter than air, better performance, mpg and less weight for the blimps we drive.
maybe hydrogen would be good too, lighter than air, better performance, mpg and less weight for the blimps we drive.
11-02-2004, 03:30 PM
#25
Meat stick
Originally Posted by TypeSAddict
PV = nRT
Ideal gas law
P=pressure
V=volume
n=moles of gas
R=universal gas constant
T=temperature
WOOHOO!!!!
God, I am such a fucking science nerd......
11-02-2004, 10:32 PM
#26
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Just a question...but how do they get the original air out that resides in the tire when they first mount it? My thought would be that they seat the bead with the nitrogen, but there still is going to be some risidual air. Even if they tried to suck it out, I would think the vacuum would unseat the bead sucking the air. 
11-03-2004, 01:01 AM
#27
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Originally Posted by tsass
Just a question...but how do they get the original air out that resides in the tire when they first mount it? My thought would be that they seat the bead with the nitrogen, but there still is going to be some risidual air. Even if they tried to suck it out, I would think the vacuum would unseat the bead sucking the air.
11-03-2004, 01:44 PM
#29
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by JaredGMS
We have none of these problems in normal vehicle usage
11-03-2004, 02:25 PM
#30
Suzuka Master
Picture of dual valve and single valve purge system.
Originally Posted by azian21485
some race specific rims have a dual valve system..one for bleeding and one for pumping...if you find a picture it'll explain everything...i couldn't find one but i'll try getting one for you later
The following system is for purging tires with only one valve stem per rim. It uses repeated cycles; it basically removes the existing gas from the tire, then fills it up with nitrogen; the cycle is continued a few times to remove most of the water vapor and air.
Something else to consider, a lot of tires get water in them during install, etc. You've got to heat the tire up and purge it to remove the water inside.
Tire Purging FAQ
Movie
http://www.clparts.com/dloads/Tire_Squid_2002a.mov
NOTE: This is for information purposes only.
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