Hurleysurf24

and all because i dont have as many posts as you or im not a moderator does not make me stupid or lack automotive knowledge

scalbert

I was joking about the plate. I should have used this.

Anyway, I am coming across as a dick, even though I am responding to a thread that makes claims about something which I and another have already tested?? And when I say tested, I mean on a dyno and not through enthusiasm. Some of what was said didn't make sense. I never claimed you were lying or he didn't do good work. But the claims just didn't add up.

So let’s recap:

You stated that the TB plate was shimmed and confirmed this above. However, that makes no sense. If you reduced the size of the throttle plate you would need to decrease the bore. Otherwise you would have a bad leak and your idle would be much higher.

No pictures were taken of the injector base which is half the runner length and seemed to be alluding that it was done.

How long did this take?? I know what it should take and based on the prices quoted, it sounds about right if not including tear down and rebuild.

You claimed to be making more power but have no proof of it. Nor do you have any before runs to qualify the final results. You are going by feel which has been proven to be notoriously incorrect in the past.

Calm down and discuss the matter, don't fly off the handle due to questioning.

scalbert

No one said you are stupid. If something is posted which doesn't add up it can certainly be challenged for clarification.

scalbert

And to clarify my position, I think it is a good modification (outside of the way the TB changes are being explained). The gains are just being optimistically proclaimed and not until other serious work is performed that the full benefits would be realized.

What I don't want to see is others beleiving that this will give them great gains and sending money to another.

Hurleysurf24

im not flying of the handle im just getting agrevated that you questioning how this was done and how MY car feels, which your right. Has the potential to feel different or indifferent depending on whats what and whos who. You are just coming off very dense.

I have documented track time and will be going back to the track this Friday due to similar conditions and as well as the dyno, I will provide track times as well.

We all know what the stock TL type s is capable of laying down to the wheels, I know it wont be the same because every car is different. But we can use comparable results to use against the upcoming dyno that I will be having.

This whole process took an entire day, well three quarters of a day to tear down, port and polish then rebuild. The tear down and rebuild only took approximately 25 minutes to take apart and 15 to reinstall.

And the throttle body issue, the idle is sitting right at where it normally does. There is absolutely no leak. We even did the water test last night as well (Throttle body face down, pour 1/2 cup of water in, see if anything poors out the bottom) Nothing came out of the bottom.

The only noticeable thing is that when the car is cold, and it hasnt warmed up yet, there is a bit of resonance, but that is to be expected.

After all was said and done, the parts were reinstalled and now I await the dyno/tuning and track

Hurleysurf24

I agree with you. I dont want to see people waste money on a modification not worthy of it.

But who am I to say go buy it because it WILL give you gains

on the other side of the fence

Who are you to say dont but this because it WONT give you gains

We both have equally debateable arguments but netiher of us have valid ones until all has been tested AND tuned


I as well never stated that this WILL give 15-25hp. I said it feels like it. Feels like and actual hp are different things as we've come to understand, but as stated before we will see

scalbert

That is fine, I am coming off as "dense". But I do have some experience in these areas and am sharing them to help shed light on the matter in the ares which were not clear.

About the TB, it sounds like you have misrepresented what was done. If you decreased the throttle plate diameter then that water test would have failed. You would end up with a gap; especially if the bore was increased.

Hurleysurf24

we decreased the width not diameter

scalbert

Not true, I have before and after dyno tests as well as another's testing.

Hurleysurf24

and it still catches fine with the bored out internals of the TB. i can video tape it for you when i take it back off to do the head

scalbert

You mean thickness??

If so, why not just have the TB bored and a new plate added?? The main blocking portion of the TB is the pivot shaft as long as the plate is horizontal when opened.

Hurleysurf24

exactly you have yours and ill have mine

i have other mods that i will be testing as well with the port and polish on the dyno. but thats after i get a baseline run with it. It is up in the air until then.


Additionally theres a lot of different factors that can be accounted for when a decrease of performance is encountered, ie. temperatures, faulty work, environmental conditions, vacuum leak, etc.

Not saying these are prevailant but they can definately alter ones per formance

scalbert

But the TB bore of the plate area remained the same as stock then.

What I am suggesting is that the TB be bored, increasing the diameter everywhere which would nessecitate a new plate.

Hurleysurf24

yep when its a circle the width is the thickness

How about we settle on fair ground, and just come to the understanding that we will see when the numbers come back ?

Hurleysurf24

the thing is that there was still enough material were the TB caught to remove some of it and still allow it to catch where it does

scalbert

No one who did manifold work lost power, everyone gained. The gains were just not as great as we would have liked. But it was just a step in a further build up.

The lost power statements were incorrect; they were a result of head work, not manifold work.

As for the quality, it took me three days to complete the work:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81192

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81430

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81626

scalbert

If you are going through this trouble, why not take it to the maximum level for nearly the same cost??

Hurleysurf24

i got a special intro price on the entire package. so this is how it sits now. More adjustments will be made to the port and polish as necessary.

We are going to dyno with what we have now and then see what else can be done with the manifold and TB if anything (we didnt think so)

but I understand what your saying. I mean I can always order a larger plate, but if it works, it works you know? No leaking and it still catches so i cant complain

scalbert

But for $150 you could increase the bore 3mm throughout. That is a decent jump in flow throughput capability.

Hurleysurf24

lol i meant that i got a special intro price on the entire package

scalbert

:gotcha:

Hurleysurf24

i see you had the same problem with the gasket in between the tb and mani lol that thing was a bit ch and then we had to clean it .. what a PITA lol

we ended up using a silicon gel as a gasket

Hurleysurf24

btw did they come out with cams that provide more power for our tl type s yet ?

scalbert

Not a big problem, I scraped it and had a new one waiting. I actually picked up a full gasket set but ended up using only the TB gasley.

scalbert

Nothing yet. There is not enough market to justify the expense. A guess could be made as the the changes and if a stock unit can be supplied, a new cam could be made. But for how much I can't say.

xenon7

whoa! this got interesting fast.....

Scalbert, you can blame me for already getting Hurley worked up some.

I think he means well, but could learn a great deal from your past work. But that is entirely up to him ofcourse.

(background) One should know that Scalbert has tested, tried, developed, and installed many more modifications to the J32a engine than you can shake a cam at. Most members here would agree that his experience over past 4 years has revealed so many things.

that is all. Be kind to one another.

Hurleysurf24

we have a moderator lol

Im going to do some reasearch on the whole cam thing. Becuase if we could get a nice set of cams that actaully produe more then stock, wed be in for a wild ride

Joe5.0

For the money you'd spend on a full set of cams it would probably be halfway towards a SC.

I'm interested in the dyno & track improvements (if any). Not that I'd ever do it to my car, but its nice to see people still tinkering & experimenting with the J32.

typeR

still doesnt make sense...if the Tb was ported polished it was enlarged even if ever so slightly now perhaps he only P&P's right up to the plate and right after leaving the area where the plate closes untouched...though your Tb would still function ..this would have been pretty much a waste of time and money...still im interested in the track results...likely though they along with a dyno pull wont beable to tell much....i have over 400 passes on my car and it would for certain take 10 passes with and 10 w/o on the same kind of day for me to accept the results..and as far as a dyno well...it should fall in the 10 hp range and so if you put down 240 ,how are we to know you werent gonna make 235 w/o the P&P if you make 230 maybe you were making 233 w/o ... i guess if your I/H ...and you go 250 then ill say theres good power there...sure whish you did a before as this is one of my likely future mods

ThinJim

iTrader: (3)

I don't have a dog in this fight, but want share my opinion, briefly. First, no aftermarket cams, but search away and hope I missed a manufacturer.

When it comes to porting/polishing; to get the most, an experienced tech with a flow machine should be used. On honda motor's it's not just the size of the ports, it's the shape, additionally, it doesn't have to be smooth with a mirror finish to perform, that doesn't mean leave the runners as is. The air should be a little disrupted. That could be one of the reasons why the gains were not as expected as well as the flow. My heads are in the port shop and are being flowed. If the items being "worked over" are not flowed, doesn't matter how good it looks, how shineyit is, or how good of a mechanic you are, etc, it's going to be off. The flow bench is a must to maximize the results for this head or any other head or manifold.

This is my porter's opinion on the cl's head, it should deliver about an extra 30-35 bhp with FI; and one reason is the cams. Those valves are only going to be open so long. (And if you found cams, then what about springs, spring hieght, spring tension, compression, taller valve, the can of worms get deeper, but this is another topic.)

As to your tb, can't see any gains happing there when the inside diameter has not been opened up, it's your money and I hope you get lucky and see the gains your expecting. Keep us posted

O-FL Motorsports

Stepping in finally... ThinJim, I agree 100% with you about what you said with the heads. I have thousands of hours on the flow bench and that is the only true way to get the most out of heads. As for his Throttle Body, it was bored completely out with the steps flattened and it is completely even throughout. Inside diameter is optimal for his N/A setup. The new T-Blade was shimmed and fit properly to accomodate for the bigger diameter. We have see dyno proven results from our customers, and I can vouch for the gains personally. If you guys have any questions or comments, please pm or call me and I'll help you all out! Sorry for the late response. Also, There are NEVER losses in power, only gains with an experianced shop. I personally have seen very optimistic gains throughout the powerband and have never seen any losses anywhere.

Thanks, Greg

evilone

hahaa

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

How can you vouch for his gains when he didn't have a dyno done prior to the work? I wouldn't put your neck out there so eagerly since there will be NOTHING to prove this modification gained (or lost) any power.

scalbert

I agree to a point. With heads it is nearly required to flow test them. With a simple manifold, some assumptions can be made. The simple geometry of these runners welcomes smoothing.

I almost had a chance to flow test them though at Calsonic. But the time never became available.

scalbert

So you did do a complete bore, to what diameter?? I assume you mic'd it before and after??

Are you vouching for the gains made about the thread subject or other cars?? As I am sure you are aware, gains of this type are often hard to feel but can be seen in track times and on the dyno. Too bad a dyno wasn't done before making any changes.

mattg

so where are those track results, Hurleysurf?

O-FL Motorsports

Hey guys... Who said that I was vouching for his gains? He hasn't even been on a dyno or to the track yet.... I have done several of your cars. I have seen dyno results from several of my customers all with very nice gains that were felt. I have thousands of hours on the flow bench, and know how to makes these intakes flow to maximize efficiency and flow velocity. The gains are there to be had for a relatively inexpensive price with the stock look, did I mention under warranty? Why are you guys so against a mod that has had proven gains, looks stock, increases gas mileage, and is relatively inexpensive? I have been porting engines for years, and I know that there are and have been gains just with the intake manifold alone. Have you guys even ever seen the inside of one? It is very rough and unfinished. I am trying to get in contact with some of my previous customers to see if any still have the dyno's. Power is there, end of story...

--Greg

mrsteve

iTrader: (1)

Because it doesn't have proven gains on our cars, period.

Oh and...

proaudio22

Stock warranty? Have no doubt if they found out about this and any internal engine problems happened, they wouldn't pay for a thing. Unless you are a Honda/Acura dealer - best not be promising anyone their factory warranty.

Why are "we" against it? While it's great you are so optimistic about it, and supposedly have proven it - noone here has seen it proven except the orignal poster.

O-FL Motorsports

Mrsteve, how can you say doesn't have proven gains on your cars when I have seen dyno's and am trying to get them to you guys? When the person who posted this posted for a reason and is going to get dyno tested. For the warranty, they will bring a car in and work on it completely without seeing the inside of the engine, and if they by chance open it up, it will have some carbon buildup and look the same to them as stock, as they don't know the difference.