Jens, this is a mod I mentioned last night and I wanted to see if you can foresee any negative ramifications from it. I know it won't make a huge increase in HP, but every bit counts. Thanks in advance.

The throttle body has coolant flowing through it and of course the coolant can get quite hot. This is doing nothing but warming the air that is entering the engine. I think it's designed to keep things warm and nimble when in a cold environment but if you're in a warm climate, bypassing the flow should keep the entering air cooler, thus increasing HP. There's one coolant line going into the top of the throttle body and two coming out the bottom. Get a T-connector for these hoses, connect all three and the hot coolant will stay out of the throttle body. I snapped a picture showing the line on top but the two on the bottom were too buried to see clearly in a photo:

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?...465&p=46626718

 

I may be wrong on this, but I believe after a time when your engine is running, without the coolant lines attached the intake maifold's temperature will rise above that of the coolant. So at that point the coolant lines might actually help bring the temperature of the intake down.

 

Tinman let me go take a look and see if there is anything bad that can come of this before I give an answer to this one.This trick is actually an old one from the Integra/Civic gang and apparently seems to give some small amount of power but to date I have not seen any dyno runs to verify this.Jens

------------------
1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on

 

Somebody give this guy a reward! I've been telling people this exact thing for the longest time. At full operating temp, the coolant CAN actually pull heat away from the throttle body.

This is a stupid mod. Only guys who are clueless about the system do this mod.



------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

Guys were doing this to 5.0L Mustangs since 1986 (first year of the fuelie Stangs). Don't waste your time.



------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

Thanks for the encouraging words. Before I got the CL-S (and before the market correction), I was dreaming of getting a Vette so I followed their forum quite regularly. A surprisingly high percentage of them have performed this exact mod on their C5's. I figured if it's good enough for them, it's worth discussing here. Even they admit it doesn't give a lot of benefit, but for the cost of a $1.50 plastic T-connector there’s potentially not much to lose. Why not wait to see what Jens has to say?

 

Where can I pick up one of these plastic "T" connectors? What size,diameter, etc.?

------------------
Y2K Satin Silver/Ebony 3.2TL
AEM Short ram w/ custom CAI conversion | Magnaflow axle-back exhaust | Neuspeed Sport springs(modified: 3.5"F/3"R drop) | BOSCH platinum+4 spark plugs | Acura OE Wing | Mesh grill and bumper | Acura Indiglo Emblem | Mugen badging | Body color door handles | Polarg M12 sidemarkers | Opti-Blue Xenon HB's | Hiper Strobes F/R | 20%/35% Llumar Platinum tint | Razo RA42 Shiftknob | Alloy pedals | Blue neon exterior lighting | Rockford 10" RFP2410 Punch XLC subs | Boss Audio CLR60 600watt 4ch. amp | Escort Passport 7500 Radar/Laser detector

 

I'm not sure if anybody has actually performed this mod yet so I don't know the specific part to recommend. If Jens gives a thumbs-up here to my original question, I'll try to find out.

Realistically, this mod is not going to offer a huge benefit but the reason I mentioned it was that somebody in another thread was wondering what other mods are available to squeeze out every bit of HP after all the basic ones (CAI, headers, etc...) have been performed. It's true that after a certain period of running the engine, the TB will warm from heat transfer from the intake manifold (regardless if there is coolant flow or not) but how much so remains unknown. While the benefits are definitely controversial, here are dyno results of this mod on one person's LS1 engine (the one used in Vettes). He saw over 6HP but of course, with our smaller displacement, we'd see less (if any):

http://ws6.com/mod-8.htm

Here's what the part looks like for Vettes if you buy it commercially (as opposed to the Pep Boys/Home Depot route):

http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corve...tions/TBB.html

 

Tinman, Just because it good enough for guys with Vettes, we should discuss it here? Do you have an inferiority complex or something? Guys with Vettes are no smarter than anyone else out there. I'm trying to let people on this board know that it's a waste of time and can potentially cause you to LOSE a little power under the right conditions.


As for Jens..... I personally don't care what he has to say in the matter. I'm not trying to disrespect him, and I know he helps a lot of you guys on this forum. But Jens is an Acura Auto Tech, probably even ASE certified. Years ago, I was also an Auto Tech, ASE Master Certified. Since then I've continued my education and became an Automotive Engineer. Thus,I feel that I'm pretty qualified to voice an opinion on performance modifications.



------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

This is silly. You voiced your opinion and that's fine. I just mentioned a mod and I'm waiting to hear from somebody whose opinion I trust. If I choose to do it based on what I feel, then that's my decision. I'm not here to get into a pissing contest.

 

Ok in looking at this definite thumbs down (sorry) and here is why.The hose you referenced in the picture is actually a vacuum line for a portion of the emission control system.If you follow it as it snakes around you will end up at a solenoid.The hoses you mentioned below the throttle body are for coolant however they are part of the fast idle system in your car.Although your Acura does use an electric idle control it also makes use of an thermostatically controlled fast idle system.Negating these hoses will affect your idle which is not good.Overall I have seen this mod on various Civics Integras but as I said I have never seen any substantiated power increases.However these cars all had some interesting idle problems including hard starting etc.


------------------
1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on

 

Thanks very much for taking the time to research this Jens. Now we officially know this mod is bogus for our cars (as Tom2 said all along).

Oh well, on to next idea...

 

Tom2,not everyone is an automotive engineer so take it easy on those of us who are not as "qualified" as you are.The gentleman asked an honest question and you slammed him.And by the way I am not ASE certified I learned the trade of auto repair the old fashioned way at the side of the most experienced man in the shop.Frankly I think if you can read you can pass an ASE test but that does not make you a mechanic.Jens

------------------
1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on

 

Interesting...... If you feel that the ASE tests are so easy, why not take all 8 of them and get your Master Certification? Doesn't Park Ave Acura offer more compensation for Master Techs? I'm certainly sure that they would reimburse you for the cost of registration for the tests at the very least.

By the way, according to the ASE, nearly 3 out of 4 technicians/mechanics fail each ASE test they take the first time. Maybe you should take a few of them yourself before you talk junk about them......

In this day and age of computer controlled automobiles, a vast majority of the public need to feel that they are bringing their "high tech" automobile to a shop that has people that are actually qualified to repair it. ASE is just about the only organization that certifies technicians all over the USA. You really should become a member.



------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

by talking to jens numerous times you need to relax, jens knows what he is talking about and i realized this just after a few minutes in a conversation with him. i am sure he is qualified to work on any of our acuras as well as many other cars. One of my friends is a technician and his dealership sends him to school at least once a year for training and im sure acura does the same. If Jens was working at an outside garage im sure the ASE tests would be necessary. As long as he is properly trained by Acura i could care less what type of certifications he has. Jens keep up the good work at Park Ave Acura

 

This reminds me of the "experience" vs more letters (degrees) after a person's name.

Is certification good -- sure. Does it guarantee some will be a great mechanic -- no.

I've heard only good things about Jens and his work. And Tom seems to know his stuff. Isn't there more to all of this?


BTW -- There are some old-timer's out there, that have NOT ONE SINGLE piece of paper hanging on their wall, and who do you think the experts go looking for...

------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 04-19-2001).]

 

The company I currently work for does not offer additional compensation for ASE certification.Neither did Miller Motorcars in Greenwich CT (Ferrari Aston Martin Alfa Romeo) nor did Danbury Autohaus (Mercedes Benz SAAB) what all of these companies did offer was factory training which I assure you is specific to the cars in question.So why would I go and spend the time money and effort to go learn about GM/Ford/Chrysler cars which is what most of the testing was all about anyway?Yeah I guess that shingle would look nice hanging over my toolbox so I can point it out to anybody who cares but I attend factory training where you work on and learn about the cars we sell and service.So what would you prefer generic training or product specific training????????Jens

------------------
1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on

 

Jens, I was referred to you by a Kenny aka F=ma from the Acura-tl.com board and where I'm from (Superhonda.org Accord v6 forum), to discuss the current modification that I have in the works. I would like your opinion and thoughts on the matter of you have the time. And Tom, if you have any time as well, please feel free to give me your opinion. I appreciate both of your time and effort put into it. Thank you.

http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004139.html



------------------
-=SoCalV6=-
1999 TW Accord EX v6 Cpe
aka Valentine with some show 'n go.
*Comptech Headers, Sways, V6 Oil Cap/Batt TD
*WeaponR Circuit Pros,CF Intake, Dragon Filter, FPR, Breather, Coo Res, G-Spec Floors, 4-PTs
*Koni Yellows
*18/7.5/+40 Volk TE37s
*225/40/18 Nitto NT-555s
*Tanabe Hyper Medals
*PIAA Hi's,lo's,Fogs, Wedge
*Nology HotWires,Powercore Ig Amp
*Razo Pedals, NE AT Knob
*GD2000BW, WW Touring Wing

 

ASE certification is not manufacturer specific at all. Not in the very least. It applies to various system/subsystems present in ALL makes/models. As a matter of fact, ASE goes out of their way to make sure that the tests are applicable to all makes/models of cars, otherwise, the tests would be biased.

That's why they're recognized by all manufacturers, from Ford to Ferrari.

But if your dealer doesn't offer more compensation, then maybe it wouldn't make any sense to get tested. I thought MOST dealers did still offer more money to ASE techs. Does your dealership have the ASE logo anywhere in the shop? I'd be amazed if you said they did not display the ASE logo.



------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

I wasn't trying to turn this into a pissing contest, but experience is cerainly a good thing. In the auto repair industry, however, old timers are leaving in record numbers. Why? Because a lot of them do not want to make the effort to learn the new systems on modern cars. All their experience is great, for olders cars. But when a new system is introduced that didn't exist in the past, the old timer's experience doesn't do shit for him.

As far as certification goes, of course it's good. And of course it doesn't guarantee that the person is a good mechanic/technician. But how would you have ANY idea about a technician that you're not familiar with in a new shop? You'd be blind, don't ya think? At least the certification is SOMETHING to show that he's got some competence in the very least.

ANYBODY can put on a mechanics uniform and call themselves a mechanic. You don't need to be licensed, like a plumber or electrician. So how do you know if an auto mechanic/technician knows his stuff? Well, that's the reason for the ASE. I'm not saying that there aren't plenty of good guys that know their shit that have NO certification. But it's a starting point for most service customers.

Lastly, as far as the old timers...... There aren't too many old timers left working on cars today that know much about a modern vehicle like an Acura CL. Where do the "experts" go for help today? Not the old timers. They usually ask for factory reps and factory engineers for advanced problems.

Next time you're at your local Acura dealer, take a peek into the shop and look at the people working on the cars. I'd bet most of them are younger guys. You probably won't even see more than 1 or 2 guys over the age of 40.



------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

And in this corner..............


TOM JENS

 

Tom:

1. I generally agree with most of what you said.

2. I've been at shops where the mechanics have had their certificates up, but the car was still screwed up. (Who knows what happens/happened.)

3. I've had service managers in the past with my Bimmer that didn't know sh*t, and they had the "certificate."

I know the cars' have electronic systems, so old timer's *that* *don't* *keep* *up* are useless when presented with an "electronic" car. However, there are guys (including old-timers), who like to read books and keep up, and don't have a single shingle that I've talked to, and have had a great experience with them on newer model cars!

So, as I said, Isn't there really more to all of this...

BTW -- I've run into a number of people with Masters Degrees who:

1. Couldn't spell
2. Didn't have basic math skills (forget about Tensor mechanics, matrix, vectors, calculus (differential and others). THEY COULDN'T do ratios and simple equations!!!
3. Couldn't put a paragraph (let alone a sentence) together.

And then I've met some who blew me away with the stuff they knew...


So, anything is possible. And there is nothing like a good rep and good references.


------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 04-20-2001).]

 

Shawn,

No, not at all. I'm sure Jens is a good guy and knows his stuff. And I'm not questioning his integrity.

I'm only trying to point out that the auto repair industry is largely unregulated. For all you know, you might bring your car into a shop and have a monkey with a wrench working on your car.

Believe me (as someone in the industry) when I say that I've seen guys that could barely turn a wrench working at dealerships on new cars.

Certification in the only way for the customer to have any idea about his mechanic/shop......... unless he knows the mechanic/technician personally.



------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

EricL,

And I agree with your last post.

All the certification in the world does not mean someone will be a good tech.

Having NO certification does not mean someone will be a bad tech.

But-- You have to admit that the odds are good in each case, no?

Would you rather have eye surgery by an optometrist or an ophthalmologist?
I'll take the guy with more degrees, thank you. The optometrist can stick to my eye exams.

------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

Ophthalmologist thank you. Yea, I can just see some monkey with a scalpel cutting into my cornea, horror movie time (don't get me started....)




------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

 

Ok Ok enough already we can debate this till the cows come home and still end up on opposite poles.Let me say this,I have worked in four different autodealerships and not one of them displayed or really cared about ASE certifications.None of them offered compensation for it.I agree that somewhere along the line it might be a good idea to have some form of licensing for mechanics as it is really almost without regulation.However as to what this license is and how it is obtained is open to debate.perhaps the ASE or some other organization should come up with a license that is specific to a brand but then again the manufacturers and dealers already spend alot of money on training as it is,so who will pay the tab?Should the mechanic pay for it?Frankly I say no to that I already have spent some 10 grand on tools to be in this game and I still need more.Should the dealer?why would they?they already spend money to send us to schools specific to the brands of cars we sell.As the nature of cars becomes ever more complex I really think my next move as far education goes will be something having to do with computers/electronics as that is what I deal with most not a course on basic auto 101.Well anyway let's move on to the next topic.Off the soapbox,Jens

------------------
1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on

 

Socalv6, the second stage of the plenum on our intakes is actuated by an electric motor pulling on the rear of the intake manifold.It uses a short cable that pulls on a small lever that in turn opens the passages inside the intake plenum when the VTEC engages.All of this controlled by the ecu.Sounds like an interesting project let me know how it turns out.Jens

------------------
1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on

 

By the way Shawn those graphics made my day I laughed for about fifteen minutes.Ok onwards and upwards.Jens

------------------
1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on

 

BTW, just to be a smart ass, it is a PCM, not an ECU...

 

Hrmm, let me first state that this is meant to be a joke. But....

Are you refering to me.... I can't spell worth a darn and rely on spell check in most cases, sometimes unsuccessfully.

 

I agree, heck I spend money on tools and am I a technician?? I wrench on the weekend to do what I need to do. My wrenching ability is better than most but I normally end up with scars. But my tools set is better than many mechanics I have met, guess they don't bring their work home.

But, IMO, I know a hell of a lot more about engine controls than 99% of the dealer technicians out there. So the dynamics of the automotive world have changed, knowledgeable may depend on their specialty...

 

Scalbert actually I think Honda/Acura refers to their electronic blackbox as "PGM-FI" but generally speaking we refer to them as the ecu,pcm,brainbox,calculator,control box,and various other terms not fit to print here when things are not cooperating.You probably do have nicer tools than I do,I buy when it's on sale and stay away from the "brand names".Nowadays you can get high quality tools from many sources so my toolbox is a jumble of good stuff but nothing really matches.Some of my tools are homemade when necc.My toolbox in the my own garage at home is actually all Sears Craftsman stuff and the tools are pretty good for home use.Jens

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1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on

 

I completely agree. When trying to tune the ARC2 on my GTP (the ARC2 was a prototype at the time) I called the PCM many things that it really couldn't be.

But for common sake, I do try to refer to the 'computer' now as a PCM as it does now control the entire powertrain. But the Helms manual does refer to it as a PCM in most cases. Except when it comes to the fusing.

But don't be quick to assume I have good tools, I did say that I come away with scars after nearly every involved session. Something a good mechanic would not always do... Maybe when it comes to the electrical diagnosis, but those 'tools' are borrowed from work (we work in industrial controls). But for hard tools, half are Sears and the other have been acquired (or may left) from a variety of sources. I have also fashioned a tool or two, although my skills are less than desirable. I do tend to buy from sears since I don’t have easy access to Snap-On or similar. Plus there is a decent Sears store about a mile from my office. Heck, I was recently trying to find a 22mm offset box end wrench and the only place that had it was Sears. Home Depot and Lowes didn’t even come close.

I typically rely on my father-in-law when I get stumped mechanically. But when it comes to the controls, I head that area for us.

 

Not you -- no! I need a spell checker too.

For the record, I'm NOT talking about typos, general spelling errors, but the COMPLETE LACK or ABILITY for form a complete sentence (with multiple aids). That combined with the inability to figure out simple ratios and x = 1 + 2*y problems really gives me pause.

My wife met one too (Masters of nothing [I sure don't know]). This one had a MBA, and had stuff so messed up, that you wouldn't believe it We laughed for about 2 hours when she came home one night, and recanted the stories from that day.

<font color=red>
Su ya cun sea Im a grete spelor two -.; OK;

</font>







------------------
Silver 2001 CL-S with NAVI

• Mud guards
• Wheel locks
• Toyo T1S 235/45ZR17-97W* Proxies on 17x8" SSR Competition wheels (48lbs less than stock)
• Kevlar/SS Brake lines ordered
• Comptech headers & sways ready
• Silver AEM CAI ready
• 8 coats of Zaino magic

 

Actually, that varies among the different manufacturers. Honda may call it a 'powertrain control module' because it controls the entire powertrain, but BMW has separate controls for various components. ECM, TCM, BCM have all been used by BMW.



------------------
dead CL-S and M3

 

On top of what Jens and Tom2 has said, I've heard (from when I was one of the Integra guys) that if the humidity was right and ambient temperatures low enough, the throttle can potentially freeze ajar (!!!) with the bypass mod.

------------------
051/LP/SR/LD/HH

 

Yes it can freeze.Airplane pilots call this carb ice.Jens

------------------
1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA high beam headlamp system H.I.D. Xenon low beam tinted, custom taillites and on and on