Car Cultures
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From: Everywhere
Car Cultures
The Honda corporation is very conservative. The type-S cars were very lucky to make it to the market. Honda rarely takes chances and would rather have a car make 30mpg than 300mph. It's just Honda. I think the owners need to understand this.
Toyota is damn near the BIG 3 auto company in THE WORLD. Different culture. Toyota takes chances more, win or lose.
I take the CL-S as a upscale luxo coupe with a hint of Sportiness, hence TYPE-S, Instead of Type-R. The IS is a sport sedan with a hint of luxury.
As you can see, Honda took an Accord platform and made the Tl/CL and made the Type-S models to strecth the platform to the limits.
Toyota took the Camry platform, made the ES 300, TRIED (and failed) to make it sporty/luxury (I know, I have an ES 300 MANUAL) and decided to make the ES flull blown lux and introduce the IS to take on sports sedans.
That more than anything should let everyone know how different the cultures are.
This is my take. I posted that at .net. I cannot believe some of the crap I read from both forums. Do ya'll realize just 4 years ago, neither car existed (IS or CL-S) in the states. Get a damn grip and enjoy the car. Snap on the OWNER, not the car (well joke here and there).
Nuts and crazy. Really, is it that serious???
Toyota is damn near the BIG 3 auto company in THE WORLD. Different culture. Toyota takes chances more, win or lose.
I take the CL-S as a upscale luxo coupe with a hint of Sportiness, hence TYPE-S, Instead of Type-R. The IS is a sport sedan with a hint of luxury.
As you can see, Honda took an Accord platform and made the Tl/CL and made the Type-S models to strecth the platform to the limits.
Toyota took the Camry platform, made the ES 300, TRIED (and failed) to make it sporty/luxury (I know, I have an ES 300 MANUAL) and decided to make the ES flull blown lux and introduce the IS to take on sports sedans.
That more than anything should let everyone know how different the cultures are.
This is my take. I posted that at .net. I cannot believe some of the crap I read from both forums. Do ya'll realize just 4 years ago, neither car existed (IS or CL-S) in the states. Get a damn grip and enjoy the car. Snap on the OWNER, not the car (well joke here and there).
Nuts and crazy. Really, is it that serious???
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From: Philly
I gotta say that the only car I can consider a "Sport Sedan" is the M5 .... Performance/Handling/Ride Comfort... I really am not flaming but other then the ///M5 the word Sport & Sedan are self defeating.
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From: Los Angeles, CA
Maybe it's just me, but I don't really totally understand your argument.
Yes, Honda is conservative, but I feel Toyota is even moreso lately. Honda has the NSX and the S2000. Toyota has nothing in those segments.
The IS is Toyota's (IMO) failed attempt to take on the 3 series.
Personally, I feel it's overpriced, underpowered, and too small. But that's just me. I agree that the only "true" sport sedans are the M5, the new Volvo (maybe) and the RS6
Yes, Honda is conservative, but I feel Toyota is even moreso lately. Honda has the NSX and the S2000. Toyota has nothing in those segments.
The IS is Toyota's (IMO) failed attempt to take on the 3 series.
Personally, I feel it's overpriced, underpowered, and too small. But that's just me. I agree that the only "true" sport sedans are the M5, the new Volvo (maybe) and the RS6
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From: Philly
Originally posted by cusdaddy
I agree that the only "true" sport sedans are the M5, the new Volvo (maybe) and the RS6
I agree that the only "true" sport sedans are the M5, the new Volvo (maybe) and the RS6
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From: Milwaukee, WI
IS300 is indeed very overpriced...should be more like starting price of 27,000....loaded 31,000 the L-tuned package is just a total waste...just adds unneeded weight to the car and makes it more of a rice rocket than it is to begin with....i think its cool how toyota offers a dealer installed supercharger for certain vehicles..too bad honda/acura doesnt do that
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From: Lenexa, KS
Originally posted by Zapata
What do you call the NSX?
What do you call the NSX?
NSX=Sportscar
Hence it's name
"New Sportscar eXperimental"
But, ya it's not conservative, but it certainly isn't what it used to be. They really haven't done much with it in many years now.
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From: burbs of philly
Originally posted by SiGGy
Certainly not a sports sedan since it only has 2 doors.
NSX=Sportscar
Hence it's name
"New Sportscar eXperimental"
Certainly not a sports sedan since it only has 2 doors.
NSX=Sportscar
Hence it's name
"New Sportscar eXperimental"
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From: burbs of philly
Originally posted by TheModMole
Like Zapata said .. I think the NSX was Acura letting its BALLS hang out by introducing the NSX when it did and with a N/A 6 to compete with the Big Biys turbo's , v8's , and v10's
Like Zapata said .. I think the NSX was Acura letting its BALLS hang out by introducing the NSX when it did and with a N/A 6 to compete with the Big Biys turbo's , v8's , and v10's
I really dont care if Honda is conservative or not. I love my CL-S. It goes faster than I want to go and it is comfortable. Keeps me warm when its cold and dry when it rains. Love that cls
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From: Everywhere
I was not looking for an argument. Did you know Honda dictates ALL STYLING for EVERY CAR. Did you know they PURPOSELY make Hondas and Acuras look alike. It took damn near killing the CEO just to put dual exhausts on your cars. The NSX is a wonderful car, but I meant sports sedans.
So, I guess you would rather a Cadillac Deville since all other sedans basically suck at being a sports sedan.
If the IS failed so much, why did BMW RE-tighten it's steering to pre-IS 300 specs. Why the G35 RWD sedan? The RWD Caddy CTS? Because Lexus did suceed. It brought younger (and some very immature and plain batty) owners to Lexus.
Consider the 330 is 6-8 grand more at equivilent pricing levels so it may be overpriced to an Acura owner but not a BMW owner. I agree, the L-tuned packages from Lexus are very pricey.
Since 1998 Toyota
RX 300 (1st car based SUV)
IS 300
IS 300 Sportcross (a crazy risk)
GS series (looks weird to most)
Echo (this was nuts too)
MR-2 Spyder
Celica
Last year of the Supra TT
SC430 (looks weird again)
Since 1998 Honda
S2000
Honda Element (2003)
I gotta say that the only car I can consider a "Sport Sedan" is the M5 .... Performance/Handling/Ride Comfort... I really am not flaming but other then the ///M5 the word Sport & Sedan are self defeating.
The IS is Toyota's (IMO) failed attempt to take on the 3 series.
IS300 is indeed very overpriced...should be more like starting price of 27,000....loaded 31,000 the L-tuned package is just a total waste...just adds unneeded weight to the car and makes it more of a rice rocket than it is to begin with....i think its cool how toyota offers a dealer installed supercharger for certain vehicles..too bad honda/acura doesnt do that
Yes, Honda is conservative, but I feel Toyota is even moreso lately. Honda has the NSX and the S2000. Toyota has nothing in those segments.
RX 300 (1st car based SUV)
IS 300
IS 300 Sportcross (a crazy risk)
GS series (looks weird to most)
Echo (this was nuts too)
MR-2 Spyder
Celica
Last year of the Supra TT
SC430 (looks weird again)
Since 1998 Honda
S2000
Honda Element (2003)
Ain't No Other...
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From: California
Originally posted by Zapata
Don't forget the all aluminum sub-frame construction......Audi is JUST getting around to it this year with the new a8. Honda has had this for oooooh 12 years?
Don't forget the all aluminum sub-frame construction......Audi is JUST getting around to it this year with the new a8. Honda has had this for oooooh 12 years?
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From: Swansea, MA
Toyota has been around longer the honda. I remember reading something on the honda.com history page that "mr. honda" sold one of his first companys to Toyota.
Corporate cultures take years to develop, and can also take years to change. Honda has this hangup with fuel ecomomy (not that's it's a bad thing tho'). It's believed that the honda name means reliability and effeciency. The V8 engine doesn't fit in with this image (or the image that honda is trying to protray), so don't expect to see a V8 in a honda anytime soon (acura maybe, but not a honda). FWD is a big part of the honda image, so it'll take alot to change that too.
Honda likes to play it safe with their automotive offerings and tends to play catchup w/ the competition. While the NSX was a great "image changing" car for honda/acura with it great handling (and hp at the time), it's losing the battle in the horsepower wars. It's not the crowning gem it used to be. They have to up the HP now that there are Vipers and 350Zs (and Z06's, etc). that are competitors at a lesser price.
Now, I really don't like the styling offerings (frountier/altima/new max) from Nissan, but have to argue that they do take chances. The 350Z is a non-brainer, as it'll definitely help change people opinions about the performance of Nissans as a whole (much like the initial NSX did for acura). The redesigned altima and maxima definitely represent a change in Nissans corporate culture.
When Honda sells almost 1/2 million accords without fleet sales, it's hard to argue with the honda philosophy.
Corporate cultures take years to develop, and can also take years to change. Honda has this hangup with fuel ecomomy (not that's it's a bad thing tho'). It's believed that the honda name means reliability and effeciency. The V8 engine doesn't fit in with this image (or the image that honda is trying to protray), so don't expect to see a V8 in a honda anytime soon (acura maybe, but not a honda). FWD is a big part of the honda image, so it'll take alot to change that too.
Honda likes to play it safe with their automotive offerings and tends to play catchup w/ the competition. While the NSX was a great "image changing" car for honda/acura with it great handling (and hp at the time), it's losing the battle in the horsepower wars. It's not the crowning gem it used to be. They have to up the HP now that there are Vipers and 350Zs (and Z06's, etc). that are competitors at a lesser price.
Now, I really don't like the styling offerings (frountier/altima/new max) from Nissan, but have to argue that they do take chances. The 350Z is a non-brainer, as it'll definitely help change people opinions about the performance of Nissans as a whole (much like the initial NSX did for acura). The redesigned altima and maxima definitely represent a change in Nissans corporate culture.
When Honda sells almost 1/2 million accords without fleet sales, it's hard to argue with the honda philosophy.
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From: DUMB ISLAND
1sicklex, I'm very sorry if it seemed that I wanted to start an argument w/u bro, my apologies since I really respect ur opinions and comments 
I agree w/u that w/o a doubt, toyota has taken alot more risks than Honda when it comes to car designs, IMO, that is why toyota is where they are now b/c of these risks...it was the RX that sealed the case in the American Public's eyes that lexus belonged up there w/benz and bmw...also the IS is pretty succesful in its own rite; i mean there aren't many cars that have a huge aftermarket following if they were sales failures...
However, yes Honda is very methodical and conservative...if anyhing, they are probably the least diluted car company in terms of hearing what the public wants...i.e. that is why it took them so long 2 get their own Suvs and why they still don't have their own pickup yet...however, u must rmbr, Honda is also the most profitable car manufacturer in the world, last year they made a profit of close to $1500 per each new car sold, ford on the other hand lost over $1000+per car
Thus, yes honda needs to take more risks, but they must know when and how to take them (i.e. the 02 civic si is a dissapointment)
I agree w/u that w/o a doubt, toyota has taken alot more risks than Honda when it comes to car designs, IMO, that is why toyota is where they are now b/c of these risks...it was the RX that sealed the case in the American Public's eyes that lexus belonged up there w/benz and bmw...also the IS is pretty succesful in its own rite; i mean there aren't many cars that have a huge aftermarket following if they were sales failures...
However, yes Honda is very methodical and conservative...if anyhing, they are probably the least diluted car company in terms of hearing what the public wants...i.e. that is why it took them so long 2 get their own Suvs and why they still don't have their own pickup yet...however, u must rmbr, Honda is also the most profitable car manufacturer in the world, last year they made a profit of close to $1500 per each new car sold, ford on the other hand lost over $1000+per car
Thus, yes honda needs to take more risks, but they must know when and how to take them (i.e. the 02 civic si is a dissapointment)
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From: Tick-Tock Tech
I have to agree with TheModMole: the sport sedan market is one I fail to understand. If I am going to have a car with four doors (ie: a car that I expect people to ride in the back seat) it should primarily be comfortable. Power is a second (accelerating to enter freeway or to pass other cars). Handling is low on the list. Who in their right mind is going to take a four door car in a slalom?
In answer to your question - yes, I'd rather take a behemoth DeVille that rides like floating on a cloud over an IS (ha!) if I'm going to cart around friends/family/business people. I don't live in Germany, so I don't have any need to have the car drive on the autobahn at >120 MPH, nor do I feel that it's appropriate to transport others at that speed (in an automobile - give me a plane and I'll take you faster any day). The M5 meets this criteria, but is unnecessary in my book.
Y'all can keep your four door IS's, 3 series BMW's, Q35's, etc. If I want handling and power I'm going to a sports car, roadster, or lux-sport hybrid coupe (CL-S). A four door sports car is an oxymoron.
In answer to your question - yes, I'd rather take a behemoth DeVille that rides like floating on a cloud over an IS (ha!) if I'm going to cart around friends/family/business people. I don't live in Germany, so I don't have any need to have the car drive on the autobahn at >120 MPH, nor do I feel that it's appropriate to transport others at that speed (in an automobile - give me a plane and I'll take you faster any day). The M5 meets this criteria, but is unnecessary in my book.
Y'all can keep your four door IS's, 3 series BMW's, Q35's, etc. If I want handling and power I'm going to a sports car, roadster, or lux-sport hybrid coupe (CL-S). A four door sports car is an oxymoron.
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From: NC
I agree with you Lex that Toyota has gone off the board and tried new things and Honda is overall conservative. But you also have to think about their tradtion. Since 1998 they have neither really gained any more market share than the other....I mean its really still GMC, Ford, and Daimler/Chrysler in the US. However, they have gained respect as far as dependability.
Since 1998
Toyota:
Solara (2 door camry)
Echo (hideous)
matrix (cool lookin wagon)
and the others you mentioned
Honda:
Honda Pilot
Acura MDX
Honda Hybrid (hideous)
Civic Si (redesigned)
Hondo Odyssey (doesnt really count cause Toyo discontinued their van)
2003 Acura CL 6 speed
Anyways....they have both gone out on a limb here and there, but to say, neither one have seen striking numbers. Just my $.02, hope no one takes offense
Since 1998
Toyota:
Solara (2 door camry)
Echo (hideous)
matrix (cool lookin wagon)
and the others you mentioned
Honda:
Honda Pilot
Acura MDX
Honda Hybrid (hideous)
Civic Si (redesigned)
Hondo Odyssey (doesnt really count cause Toyo discontinued their van)
2003 Acura CL 6 speed
Anyways....they have both gone out on a limb here and there, but to say, neither one have seen striking numbers. Just my $.02, hope no one takes offense
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From: Everywhere
When Honda sells almost 1/2 million accords without fleet sales, it's hard to argue with the honda philosophy
Honda made the CR-V a winner.
The Honda Passport is the VAN to beat, bar-none.
I have to agree with TheModMole: the sport sedan market is one I fail to understand. If I am going to have a car with four doors (ie: a car that I expect people to ride in the back seat) it should primarily be comfortable. Power is a second (accelerating to enter freeway or to pass other cars). Handling is low on the list. Who in their right mind is going to take a four door car in a slalom?
1. Space, a sedan is more spacious than a coupe.
2. Insurance, 4-doors are cheaper than 2
3. Nowadays, looks, some sedans are just as swoopy as coupes
4. Handling, some sedans can beat some coupes.
5. Acceleration, some sedans can bear some coupes.
I cannot lie, there is nothing like owning a 2-door car. U gotta love the image. But when I purchased the GS for example, there were no coupe at the same price that offered the same amenities and overall package (same could be said for the 5, E-class, A-6, etc). This is another reason why the coupe market took a hit (along with SUVs).
1sicklex, I'm very sorry if it seemed that I wanted to start an argument w/u bro, my apologies since I really respect ur opinions and comments
Cost Drivers!!!!
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From: burbs of philly
Originally posted by SinnedTL
Audi has had the Audi Space Frame construction since the introduction of the 1994 A8...and when did the first NSX come out? Like 1992, so not much difference...the new D2 platform A8 will have this too and it will extend down to the next A6...so Audi is not JUST getting around to it this year...also the Audi R8 racecar wins basically all the Lemans...give credit to where credit is due, Audi's racing technologies are second to none and they bring alot of it into production...like the new TT that is gonna come out with a double clutch tiptronic...some crazy shit...
Audi has had the Audi Space Frame construction since the introduction of the 1994 A8...and when did the first NSX come out? Like 1992, so not much difference...the new D2 platform A8 will have this too and it will extend down to the next A6...so Audi is not JUST getting around to it this year...also the Audi R8 racecar wins basically all the Lemans...give credit to where credit is due, Audi's racing technologies are second to none and they bring alot of it into production...like the new TT that is gonna come out with a double clutch tiptronic...some crazy shit...
NSX was out in 1991 and was the FIRST production car to go that route. There is something to be said about that. I"m not knocking audi, get a grip, just somebody mentioned honda not taking risks.....
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From: Somewhere between here and there, yet neither.
Originally posted by 1SICKLEX
Since 1998 Toyota
RX 300 (1st car based SUV)
IS 300
IS 300 Sportcross (a crazy risk)
GS series (looks weird to most)
Echo (this was nuts too)
MR-2 Spyder
Celica
Last year of the Supra TT
SC430 (looks weird again)
Since 1998 Honda
S2000
Honda Element (2003)
Since 1998 Toyota
RX 300 (1st car based SUV)
IS 300
IS 300 Sportcross (a crazy risk)
GS series (looks weird to most)
Echo (this was nuts too)
MR-2 Spyder
Celica
Last year of the Supra TT
SC430 (looks weird again)
Since 1998 Honda
S2000
Honda Element (2003)
Toyota isn't much better though.
RX300 was not a risk...it was based on extended market analysis
IS...an icon in Europe and Asia...minor cult status here
GS...a very nice slap in the face to BMW...and Euros in general..
Echo...ballz
MR-S...not bad
Celica...a 5 year late response to the Integra
Supra....too bad they canned it
SC430...I wouldnt mind one
Thread Starter
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From: Everywhere
NSX was out in 1991 and was the FIRST production car to go that route. There is something to be said about that. I"m not knocking audi, get a grip, just somebody mentioned honda not taking risks
wned: 
:o :P
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From: mesa AZ
Its the same everywhere you look. Some companys take chances, some dont. Usually they take turns. Look at the chevy vs ford thing. Since 1993 chevy has KILLED the performance car area with their newly designed LT1 engine. Ford couldnt compete, and instead of designing a new motor just for the stang, they took a weak truck motor and put it in. Now the camaro/firebird isent in production anymore, and ford offers a 390hp,390lbs/ft supercharged mustang.
I was blown away when honda released the new accord with 240hp and a 6sp manual tranny. In a family car? DAM! Now thats ballz.
If you guys havent noticed, the old "muscle car" wars of the 60's are coming back, with a passion. Im willing to bet you'll see major offerings from all the manufactures soon.
I was blown away when honda released the new accord with 240hp and a 6sp manual tranny. In a family car? DAM! Now thats ballz.
If you guys havent noticed, the old "muscle car" wars of the 60's are coming back, with a passion. Im willing to bet you'll see major offerings from all the manufactures soon.
Three Wheelin'
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From: Minnesota
Originally posted by bored&stroked
Its the same everywhere you look. Some companys take chances, some dont. Usually they take turns. Look at the chevy vs ford thing. Since 1993 chevy has KILLED the performance car area with their newly designed LT1 engine. Ford couldnt compete, and instead of designing a new motor just for the stang, they took a weak truck motor and put it in. Now the camaro/firebird isent in production anymore, and ford offers a 390hp,390lbs/ft supercharged mustang.
I was blown away when honda released the new accord with 240hp and a 6sp manual tranny. In a family car? DAM! Now thats ballz.
If you guys havent noticed, the old "muscle car" wars of the 60's are coming back, with a passion. Im willing to bet you'll see major offerings from all the manufactures soon.
Its the same everywhere you look. Some companys take chances, some dont. Usually they take turns. Look at the chevy vs ford thing. Since 1993 chevy has KILLED the performance car area with their newly designed LT1 engine. Ford couldnt compete, and instead of designing a new motor just for the stang, they took a weak truck motor and put it in. Now the camaro/firebird isent in production anymore, and ford offers a 390hp,390lbs/ft supercharged mustang.
I was blown away when honda released the new accord with 240hp and a 6sp manual tranny. In a family car? DAM! Now thats ballz.
If you guys havent noticed, the old "muscle car" wars of the 60's are coming back, with a passion. Im willing to bet you'll see major offerings from all the manufactures soon.
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