Bad Dyno and the Day Got Worse, Long...
06-12-2003, 09:11 PM
#1
Suzuka Master
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Bad Dyno and the Day Got Worse, Long...
I finally made it to the dyno yesterday and very reluctantly. Upon making a few sales calls yesterday I noticed that my OAT was reading 87 degrees at 10:30 this morning so I knew I wasn't going to set any records. Add to that a front coming in with pretty serious storms later on so the dropping baro wouldn't help. Plus I had been driving around metro Atlanta all day in traffic so the engine was good and hot. At the time of arrival the OAT was reading 92 F with the sun beating down on the shop entrance.
But I decided to go anyway since the appointment was made and I was in the neighborhood but the results were worse than I expected.
Needless to say I was reluctant to post this as many here do not grasp relative or unusual circumstances. Now after reviewing the pulls I have a little relief and less worry. But there is, without a doubt, a problem.
Per the below image you can see peak power at the 264 range. The amazing part is the repeatability; all plots are nearly identical; albeit a bit rough (possibly do to the problem) but obviously power is down. Now this was done in forth gear which historically has made less power in my car on the order of about five WHP. So discounting this I may have been near 270 WHP.
Now the conditions were horrendous which may attribute to a 5 - 10 WHP drop. But even being optimistic I was still short 15 - 20 WHP. So where did this go; there are two thoughts. Before I ran a '93 Cobra was on the rollers. It had a higher boost pulley, intake, headers, exhaust, etc. He was expecting around 450 WHP based on other similar cars which seemed reasonable. He barely made over 400 WHP. Needless to say he was disappointed. So one potential problem may be the dyno being off or such awful conditions that all cars would be down about 12%...
The second issue stood out significantly during testing. I began the tests with the fuel pressure set to give a fuel trim value just on the negative side as it was when I installed the kit. After the first test I adjusted the fuel pressure to make it run leaner. This obviously had little affect. I then went the other way with basically no results. So the there is one possibility that the FPR may not be ramping up the FP under boost or is not doing a controllable job of it. This would seemingly coincide with the issue I had before when one day the higher boost pulley promoted knock no matter what. Luckily I do have the means to test this and just finished.
I hooked up a gauge to the return line and found the static pressure to be about 50 PSI. I put the vacuum line back on and it only dropped to about 45 PSI. Comptech stated that it should be at about 65 – 70 PSI static and 37 – 40 PSI with 20 Inch HG vacuum. I then proceeded to bump the pressure up to get the static where it should be. But it did not do so smoothly; it took several turns before it started increasing contrary to what I expected. I brought it up to about 70 PSI and put back on the vacuum line where it read 55 PSI. This was far from the specifications given. Now when I removed the line and it was reading 72 PSI so I decided to drop it a little. But when I turned the screw nothing happened. I then hooked up the vacuum line and it dropped to about 45 PSI. I pulled the line again and it read 50 PSI.
So obviously there is a problem with the FPR which I will take up with Comptech tomorrow
As you would expect I was disappointed. But after consideration and testing I now know the culprit; the fuel control. This is not unlike the time about three years ago where the IMRC issue was uncovered with a dyno I made. The dyno can tell quite a bit about what is going on.
As a side note, I actually typed this last night but was interrupted. Jennifer called to me just after letting in our cat of thirteen years (just shortly after we met and we were fresh out of high school of a year or so). This cat had adopted us after being born in a barn near her college house. It was an outdoor cat never having used a liter box or seen one. She would literally wake us up to let her out.
The cat was acting funny and had a hard time walking so I picked here up and put her on the sofa. Her breathing was shallow and labored along with fluid sounds. I then saw here side as she breathed and noticed it was collapsing. Right then we took her to the animal hospital.
It turns out she was attacked by something which they felt was another cat. There was one bite/puncture wound on her back but that wasn’t the problem. She had seven broke or fractured ribs one of which was completely broke off near the spine. Needless to say she was in trauma and required O2.
After some debate we decided to let her go as she was at least 14 – 15 years old (we do not know for sure, she could have been older). Her injuries would severe enough that she had a 50/50 chance of living and no chance of a complete recovering. Add to that she was an outdoor cat and there was no way she would be happy cooped up for about eight weeks recovering particularly at her age.
IMO, I think it was a bobcat which attacked her as I have chased one off before. I just wish my Lab had been nearby at the time to run it off. I can't see how another domestic cat could have doen ths damage. BTW, my back yard ends at Army Corp property surrounding Lake Alatoona so wildlife is not uncommon.
Sorry for the long winded post; it would have been out last night and much shorter had this issue not happened. Below is the dyno run:
But I decided to go anyway since the appointment was made and I was in the neighborhood but the results were worse than I expected.
Needless to say I was reluctant to post this as many here do not grasp relative or unusual circumstances. Now after reviewing the pulls I have a little relief and less worry. But there is, without a doubt, a problem.
Per the below image you can see peak power at the 264 range. The amazing part is the repeatability; all plots are nearly identical; albeit a bit rough (possibly do to the problem) but obviously power is down. Now this was done in forth gear which historically has made less power in my car on the order of about five WHP. So discounting this I may have been near 270 WHP.
Now the conditions were horrendous which may attribute to a 5 - 10 WHP drop. But even being optimistic I was still short 15 - 20 WHP. So where did this go; there are two thoughts. Before I ran a '93 Cobra was on the rollers. It had a higher boost pulley, intake, headers, exhaust, etc. He was expecting around 450 WHP based on other similar cars which seemed reasonable. He barely made over 400 WHP. Needless to say he was disappointed. So one potential problem may be the dyno being off or such awful conditions that all cars would be down about 12%...
The second issue stood out significantly during testing. I began the tests with the fuel pressure set to give a fuel trim value just on the negative side as it was when I installed the kit. After the first test I adjusted the fuel pressure to make it run leaner. This obviously had little affect. I then went the other way with basically no results. So the there is one possibility that the FPR may not be ramping up the FP under boost or is not doing a controllable job of it. This would seemingly coincide with the issue I had before when one day the higher boost pulley promoted knock no matter what. Luckily I do have the means to test this and just finished.
I hooked up a gauge to the return line and found the static pressure to be about 50 PSI. I put the vacuum line back on and it only dropped to about 45 PSI. Comptech stated that it should be at about 65 – 70 PSI static and 37 – 40 PSI with 20 Inch HG vacuum. I then proceeded to bump the pressure up to get the static where it should be. But it did not do so smoothly; it took several turns before it started increasing contrary to what I expected. I brought it up to about 70 PSI and put back on the vacuum line where it read 55 PSI. This was far from the specifications given. Now when I removed the line and it was reading 72 PSI so I decided to drop it a little. But when I turned the screw nothing happened. I then hooked up the vacuum line and it dropped to about 45 PSI. I pulled the line again and it read 50 PSI.
So obviously there is a problem with the FPR which I will take up with Comptech tomorrow
As you would expect I was disappointed. But after consideration and testing I now know the culprit; the fuel control. This is not unlike the time about three years ago where the IMRC issue was uncovered with a dyno I made. The dyno can tell quite a bit about what is going on.
As a side note, I actually typed this last night but was interrupted. Jennifer called to me just after letting in our cat of thirteen years (just shortly after we met and we were fresh out of high school of a year or so). This cat had adopted us after being born in a barn near her college house. It was an outdoor cat never having used a liter box or seen one. She would literally wake us up to let her out.
The cat was acting funny and had a hard time walking so I picked here up and put her on the sofa. Her breathing was shallow and labored along with fluid sounds. I then saw here side as she breathed and noticed it was collapsing. Right then we took her to the animal hospital.
It turns out she was attacked by something which they felt was another cat. There was one bite/puncture wound on her back but that wasn’t the problem. She had seven broke or fractured ribs one of which was completely broke off near the spine. Needless to say she was in trauma and required O2.
After some debate we decided to let her go as she was at least 14 – 15 years old (we do not know for sure, she could have been older). Her injuries would severe enough that she had a 50/50 chance of living and no chance of a complete recovering. Add to that she was an outdoor cat and there was no way she would be happy cooped up for about eight weeks recovering particularly at her age.
IMO, I think it was a bobcat which attacked her as I have chased one off before. I just wish my Lab had been nearby at the time to run it off. I can't see how another domestic cat could have doen ths damage. BTW, my back yard ends at Army Corp property surrounding Lake Alatoona so wildlife is not uncommon.
Sorry for the long winded post; it would have been out last night and much shorter had this issue not happened. Below is the dyno run:
06-12-2003, 09:20 PM
#2
Senior Moderator
Thanks for the info Steve! Look at the nice flat torque 'curve'
Your pulls were done w/the stock pulley right?
Sorry about your cat. That's a long time to have a pet and I'm sure you guys were very attached to her.
Your pulls were done w/the stock pulley right?
Sorry about your cat. That's a long time to have a pet and I'm sure you guys were very attached to her.
06-12-2003, 09:26 PM
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Suzuka Master
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Yes, the stock (base) Comptech pulley.
Yea, the curve was very flat albeit low. I'll look into getting the FPR replaced and then head back for a morning session.
Yea, the curve was very flat albeit low. I'll look into getting the FPR replaced and then head back for a morning session.
06-12-2003, 09:33 PM
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Sorry to hear about the kitty. I've had two cats with me to the end, both were 18-19 years old when they passed. It's hard seeing one of the 'family members' go after being around them so long, I grew up with those cats! Anyway sorry this has nothing to do with the car in the car forum but I like kitties and miss mine :'(. Good luck with the car.
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06-12-2003, 11:30 PM
#9
Senior Moderator
sorry to hear the bad news.
keep us posted on the fpr situation.
keep us posted on the fpr situation.
06-13-2003, 12:40 AM
#13
Safety Car
Sad to hear about the problems....
On the car note: The Comptech FPR is by NO MEANS TUNED when it arrives from Comptech. Also... check the bleed-valve on the FPR... if that is loose, the rise-rate is affected. If the FPR is entire non-functional... then Comptech will replace the unit.
Temp. effects are huge on these motors... just fix the FPR and re-dyno.. you'll pull much higher #'s.
On the car note: The Comptech FPR is by NO MEANS TUNED when it arrives from Comptech. Also... check the bleed-valve on the FPR... if that is loose, the rise-rate is affected. If the FPR is entire non-functional... then Comptech will replace the unit.
Temp. effects are huge on these motors... just fix the FPR and re-dyno.. you'll pull much higher #'s.
06-13-2003, 01:03 AM
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sorry about the cat steve,
hope u get everything sorted out with the blower, i guess thats y they call it HOTLANTA, even though your in woodstock, same state, lol
hope u get everything sorted out with the blower, i guess thats y they call it HOTLANTA, even though your in woodstock, same state, lol
06-13-2003, 07:52 AM
#16
Suzuka Master
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Thanks for all of your condolences. The cat issue had a greater impact my wife adding to it with her being more emotional with the pregnancy. Although I will miss the cat I was more concerned about my wife.
06-13-2003, 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
That is still some 45 WHP more than Stock CLS-6, no?
That is still some 45 WHP more than Stock CLS-6, no?
06-13-2003, 07:58 AM
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sorry abt the rough day scalbert
hopefully everything will get sorted out
If I were you, I would call comptech and go over what may be wrong w/them.
hopefully everything will get sorted out
If I were you, I would call comptech and go over what may be wrong w/them.
06-13-2003, 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by allmotor_2000
On the car note: The Comptech FPR is by NO MEANS TUNED when it arrives from Comptech. Also... check the bleed-valve on the FPR... if that is loose, the rise-rate is affected. If the FPR is entire non-functional... then Comptech will replace the unit.
Temp. effects are huge on these motors... just fix the FPR and re-dyno.. you'll pull much higher #'s.
On the car note: The Comptech FPR is by NO MEANS TUNED when it arrives from Comptech. Also... check the bleed-valve on the FPR... if that is loose, the rise-rate is affected. If the FPR is entire non-functional... then Comptech will replace the unit.
Temp. effects are huge on these motors... just fix the FPR and re-dyno.. you'll pull much higher #'s.
I did check the bleed valve and it was solid. Why I am sure it is not working is due to it not adjusting correctly. When I tried to lower the pressure it didn't drop. But when I hooked up and removed the vacuum line it then dropped. Plus, it was higher than the base pressure should be with 20 Inches HG vacuum but only went up 5 PSI without vacuum.
I will call Comptech shortly and discuss the matter with them. Gotta wait a few hours though for you west coast guys to wake up.
Yea, the temperature was not going to help. It was about 90 F in the shade right there with the entrance to the dyno having the sun beating down on the blacktop outside. So high intake temps and a non-intercooled system makes for some wicker IAT readings; over 200 F.
06-13-2003, 08:06 AM
#20
Administrator Alumnus
Sorry to hear about your cat Steve.
While you may be disappointed in the dyno runs, give yourself a pat on the back for figuring out what the issue is. I really wish I had 1/100th the automotive knowledge you do.
While you may be disappointed in the dyno runs, give yourself a pat on the back for figuring out what the issue is. I really wish I had 1/100th the automotive knowledge you do.
06-13-2003, 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by darrinb
i guess thats y they call it HOTLANTA, even though your in woodstock, same state, lol
i guess thats y they call it HOTLANTA, even though your in woodstock, same state, lol
But yes, we do have some warm weather around here not to mention humidity pushed up from the gulf. Add to it being at just over 1000 feet elevation; it is never the good place to try and set ET records during the summer.
06-13-2003, 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by Scrib
While you may be disappointed in the dyno runs, give yourself a pat on the back for figuring out what the issue is.
While you may be disappointed in the dyno runs, give yourself a pat on the back for figuring out what the issue is.
IMO, after the FPR issue is taken care of I do expect to see another 15 - 20 WHP. Which with running in 3rd as I had before it should put me right where I would expect to be.
06-13-2003, 08:19 AM
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Oh, and BTW, I was going to head to the track tonight but that is now canceled. Canceled due to the FPR issue and canceled since it is raining out right now.
Maybe next week though...
Maybe next week though...
06-13-2003, 09:27 AM
#24
lover and fighter
Losing your pet is awful...I have two cats: one being 2, the other being almost 10...The older one is also an abnormal 27lbs, and he was actually the runt of the litter at the animal shelter. I swear he's just like a dog: comes when you call him, waits in the morning and at night for you to get up and go to bed, like certain people, hates others...He's even a freakin' lap cat. But he won't be around too much longer as his innards aren't fulyl developed and his size will be too much for him. The little one runs him ragged and it's sad to watch him slow down...That day will suck. He has outlasted all of my cars, a couple of jobs, my wife, and a lot of my friends...
On a lighter, note, if I had the blower and something went wrong, I d@mn sure wouldn't know what was wrong...These posts are often well above my level, but I do like learning knew things and you guys help in doing that...
Question: Has you car performed any differently from right after install to now? Has the FPR gone "bad" or do you think it came that way???
While there is disappointment, there is also relief. Relief in knowing something isn't just right and being able to see it on paper, test ideas and determine the cause. Otherwise I'd be driving around in ignorance the whole time not knowing a problem does exist.
Question: Has you car performed any differently from right after install to now? Has the FPR gone "bad" or do you think it came that way???
06-13-2003, 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by r10apple
Has you car performed any differently from right after install to now? Has the FPR gone "bad" or do you think it came that way???
Has you car performed any differently from right after install to now? Has the FPR gone "bad" or do you think it came that way???
06-13-2003, 10:29 AM
#27
Safety Car
If Comptech gives you a hard-time... let me know - although I doubt it.
Have you tried taking the FPR apart? Possibly the diaphragm and/or spring might be mis-aligned? It's interesting that the FPR works with vacuum on/off (30psi to 60psi 'ish right?)... but not as a rising-rate?!? This is why I thought of the bleed valve. There is also another valve... the air-bleed block-off which comes from Comptech. This needs to be blocked up as well.
I think I still have the different diameter calibration washers and different-length springs to adjust the rising-rate per psi of fuel pressure if you need them!
Have you tried taking the FPR apart? Possibly the diaphragm and/or spring might be mis-aligned? It's interesting that the FPR works with vacuum on/off (30psi to 60psi 'ish right?)... but not as a rising-rate?!? This is why I thought of the bleed valve. There is also another valve... the air-bleed block-off which comes from Comptech. This needs to be blocked up as well.
I think I still have the different diameter calibration washers and different-length springs to adjust the rising-rate per psi of fuel pressure if you need them!
06-13-2003, 11:41 AM
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considering all of comptechs claims, on their site, in their promotional material, in Car and Driver...not to mention given the ultra high price for the kit... that dyno is saddening.
there should be no excuse a CL-S 6 speed with headers and S/C should put down less than 300 whp. thats the magic number everyones been tossing around and comptech blabs about, and this dyno was sickeningly short of that.
scalbert, i really hope you can solve the issues that may be causing such a low dyno. even with the hot weather, that thing should be putting down at least 280-290. no question about it.
also, why do you dyno in 4th if you know its not going to give you the best result?
there should be no excuse a CL-S 6 speed with headers and S/C should put down less than 300 whp. thats the magic number everyones been tossing around and comptech blabs about, and this dyno was sickeningly short of that.
scalbert, i really hope you can solve the issues that may be causing such a low dyno. even with the hot weather, that thing should be putting down at least 280-290. no question about it.
also, why do you dyno in 4th if you know its not going to give you the best result?
06-13-2003, 01:02 PM
#32
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Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
Do you have the uncorrected dyno numbers or the correction factor?
Do you have the uncorrected dyno numbers or the correction factor?
06-13-2003, 01:12 PM
#33
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Originally posted by jimcol711
there should be no excuse a CL-S 6 speed with headers and S/C should put down less than 300 whp. thats the magic number everyones been tossing around and comptech blabs about, and this dyno was sickeningly short of that.
even with the hot weather, that thing should be putting down at least 280-290. no question about it.
also, why do you dyno in 4th if you know its not going to give you the best result?
there should be no excuse a CL-S 6 speed with headers and S/C should put down less than 300 whp. thats the magic number everyones been tossing around and comptech blabs about, and this dyno was sickeningly short of that.
even with the hot weather, that thing should be putting down at least 280-290. no question about it.
also, why do you dyno in 4th if you know its not going to give you the best result?
Needless to say I was reluctant to post this as many here do not grasp relative or unusual circumstances.
This post was not meant to say "Hey, look at these SC numbers". It was meant to show that a problem has been uncovered and to share what I have found so far. Once fixed I will return to the dyno and get some numbers that are more to your liking.
I made the first pull in 4th and planned on making another pull in 3rd to compare the two. But since it was so far off to begin with my intentions shifted directions.
06-13-2003, 01:20 PM
#34
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BTW, this dyno was done with the IMRC plates removed. Based on the torque curve (albeit lower than expected, just looking at the curve alone and not the numbers) there is no effect on power with the plates removed.
As theorized, the dual stage manifold is worthless under boost.
As theorized, the dual stage manifold is worthless under boost.
06-13-2003, 05:24 PM
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Sorry to hear about your loss, but I can say as a father of three your lives will be full again soon with the little ones coming along!
Hope you can sort out the FPR problem and maybe that day the dyno temps and humidity will be lower too....keep us posted!
Hope you can sort out the FPR problem and maybe that day the dyno temps and humidity will be lower too....keep us posted!
06-13-2003, 05:33 PM
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So do the guys who are thinking about purchasing a S/C need to worry about this issue?, or is your problem an isolated issue since you said you tweeked some of the set components?
What about the guys who already have the kit?...
Smitty
What about the guys who already have the kit?...
Smitty
06-13-2003, 10:02 PM
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Steve, loosing a family pet is hard enough, but having to put one down multiplies the emotions ten-fold. I'm very sorry.
Do you have any wideband numbers from the dyno?
When you increase the fuel pressuure the fuel trim is supposed to increase, right?
What are you using to check your fuel pressure?
Last but not least, what are you scanning/logging with?
Do you have any wideband numbers from the dyno?
When you increase the fuel pressuure the fuel trim is supposed to increase, right?
What are you using to check your fuel pressure?
Last but not least, what are you scanning/logging with?
06-13-2003, 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by Smitty
So do the guys who are thinking about purchasing a S/C need to worry about this issue?, or is your problem an isolated issue since you said you tweeked some of the set components?
What about the guys who already have the kit?...
Smitty
So do the guys who are thinking about purchasing a S/C need to worry about this issue?, or is your problem an isolated issue since you said you tweeked some of the set components?
What about the guys who already have the kit?...
Smitty