Aem fic
08-31-2008, 02:16 AM
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Aem fic
Does anyone know how this thing works on our cars? my ECU is really slowing my car down right now do to my new set up. Its pulling 5% fuel and 37% timing because of the ECU not being able to keep the A/F where it wants it. I Dyno tuned with my NEO last week and it felt better for a little bit but then the ECU came back and took over. Then I reset the ECU thursday and I instantly felt the difference in the restored power from before I reset. Now today the car is back to it again and I need to reset it again. Im not trying to have to reset my ECU every week so I need something other than the emanage that can correct my problem by overriding the ECU so that it never comes back into full control.
08-31-2008, 08:35 AM
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08-31-2008, 03:25 PM
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08-31-2008, 03:35 PM
#6
AEM wideband is a tool and I don't think you need to try and incorporate it into any piggyback system just read its display when tuning the car and use it for that sole reason. I suppose the GEU might be able to do some type of self tune using the wideband, maybe thats what your refering to.
08-31-2008, 03:44 PM
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The Greddy will work for sure its been tested and done many times on our ECU's and cars in general.
AEM wideband is a tool and I don't think you need to try and incorporate it into any piggyback system just read its display when tuning the car and use it for that sole reason. I suppose the GEU might be able to do some type of self tune using the wideband, maybe thats what your refering to.
AEM wideband is a tool and I don't think you need to try and incorporate it into any piggyback system just read its display when tuning the car and use it for that sole reason. I suppose the GEU might be able to do some type of self tune using the wideband, maybe thats what your refering to.
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08-31-2008, 11:24 PM
#10
Ebay ($365-399)
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/_Car-Tru...fxdZ1QQ_ptasZ1
AEMs website:
http://aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=116
http://motors.shop.ebay.com/_Car-Tru...fxdZ1QQ_ptasZ1
AEMs website:
http://aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=116
08-31-2008, 11:32 PM
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I thought that it was established that the NEO worked on the CL-S 6speed? Its downstream of the ECU and hence the ECU would not be able to override the signal from the piggy back comp.
I am almost up to 100% with my NA bolt-ons and wanted to finish up with the NEO and a tune.
I am almost up to 100% with my NA bolt-ons and wanted to finish up with the NEO and a tune.
09-01-2008, 12:34 PM
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I thought that it was established that the NEO worked on the CL-S 6speed? Its downstream of the ECU and hence the ECU would not be able to override the signal from the piggy back comp.
I am almost up to 100% with my NA bolt-ons and wanted to finish up with the NEO and a tune.
I am almost up to 100% with my NA bolt-ons and wanted to finish up with the NEO and a tune.
09-02-2008, 09:30 AM
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So basically we have no cheap easy piggy back option to advance our timing to make more power.
09-02-2008, 09:45 AM
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09-02-2008, 09:49 AM
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09-02-2008, 11:06 AM
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How the FIC works with stock ECUs and O2 sensors:
Most of the time, the stock ECU is running in closed loop mode. This means it is sending a certain amount of fuel into the engine, then checking the O2 sensor to see if that made the car run lean or rich. If the O2 sensor indicates the engine was too lean, it will add some fuel using the short- or long-term fuel trims. If it indicates too rich, it will decrease the fuel. You can monitor the fuel trims, in real-time, with a good OBD scan tool.
The stock ECU is usually trying to maintain an air/fuel ratio of 14.7 for emissions and fuel economy purposes. It will monitor the O2 sensor and change the fuel trims until it is happy with the sensor readings. If you've modified your engine for increased airflow, the stock ECU might be adding 10% fuel to maintain its desired air/fuel ratios. If you've increased the fuel pressure, the stock ECU might be subtracting fuel to maintain its desired air/fuel ratios. To summarize, the stock ECU is pretty smart but you might not agree with its desired air/fuel ratios. Then again, the stock ECU is assuming you haven't installed an aftermarket turbocharger, and that 14.7 will work just fine.
Since you can't (or might not want to) reprogram the stock ECU, and it will get very upset if you just disconnect the O2 sensor, what we need to do is trick the ECU. The FIC's O2 table is how you do this. The FIC can modify the signal from the O2 sensor: it can tell the stock ECU that the O2 sensor reading is 14.7, even when it is actually something different. If you adjust your O2 table correctly, the stock ECU can actually add fuel until it gets to A/F ratios of 12.0 or 11.0 or whatever air/fuel ratio you choose to run.
Here is how we suggest you modify the values in the O2 table:
1. Install a wideband O2 sensor.
2. With the car idling, adjust the O2 table volts parameter and monitor the A/F Ratios on the wideband.
3. Get a piece of paper and create a simple table: 1.0V = ____ AFR, 2.0V = ____ AFR, 3.0V = ____ AFR, etc...
3a. If you have an OBD scan tool, try to write down the fuel trims that the ECU is using: for instance, 1.0V = 11.9 AFR = +20% fuel. (note: I pulled 20% out of thin air, it might be adding more or less fuel than that)
4. Use your paper to fill in the O2 table. For instance, if you want to run 11.9 AFR when the car is boosting, and 1.0V resulted in 11.9 AFR, you will enter 1.0 in those parts of the table.
5. If you want more fuel than the stock ECU was using, you should add some fuel using the fuel map.
5a. When adding fuel to the fuel map, you might want to use the fuel trim percentages you found in part 5a.
6. Drive the car and monitor the wideband to verify that the AFR's are near where you wanted them to be.
6a. The FIC Version 2.01 software allows you to datalog the output from an AEM wideband (UEGO) sensor. Just connect the white wire from the UEGO to pin 18 (Aux input) of the 22-pin connector on the FIC.
As an aside, the stock ECU doesn't always monitor the O2 sensor. It might not be monitoring the O2 sensor at high RPMs and wide open throttle. A good OBD scanner will tell you if the car is in closed loop (monitoring the O2 sensor) or open loop (not monitoring the O2 sensor) mode. We have an AutoXray EZ-Scan 6000 here at AEM, it allows you to monitor channels such as open/closed loop status, coolant temp, intake air temp, short & long-term fuel trims, fuel injector duty cycle, ignition timing, engine RPM, engine load, MAF voltage, MAP voltage, and a few other parameters that aren't as useful as the ones I've mentioned.
Most of the time, the stock ECU is running in closed loop mode. This means it is sending a certain amount of fuel into the engine, then checking the O2 sensor to see if that made the car run lean or rich. If the O2 sensor indicates the engine was too lean, it will add some fuel using the short- or long-term fuel trims. If it indicates too rich, it will decrease the fuel. You can monitor the fuel trims, in real-time, with a good OBD scan tool.
The stock ECU is usually trying to maintain an air/fuel ratio of 14.7 for emissions and fuel economy purposes. It will monitor the O2 sensor and change the fuel trims until it is happy with the sensor readings. If you've modified your engine for increased airflow, the stock ECU might be adding 10% fuel to maintain its desired air/fuel ratios. If you've increased the fuel pressure, the stock ECU might be subtracting fuel to maintain its desired air/fuel ratios. To summarize, the stock ECU is pretty smart but you might not agree with its desired air/fuel ratios. Then again, the stock ECU is assuming you haven't installed an aftermarket turbocharger, and that 14.7 will work just fine.
Since you can't (or might not want to) reprogram the stock ECU, and it will get very upset if you just disconnect the O2 sensor, what we need to do is trick the ECU. The FIC's O2 table is how you do this. The FIC can modify the signal from the O2 sensor: it can tell the stock ECU that the O2 sensor reading is 14.7, even when it is actually something different. If you adjust your O2 table correctly, the stock ECU can actually add fuel until it gets to A/F ratios of 12.0 or 11.0 or whatever air/fuel ratio you choose to run.
Here is how we suggest you modify the values in the O2 table:
1. Install a wideband O2 sensor.
2. With the car idling, adjust the O2 table volts parameter and monitor the A/F Ratios on the wideband.
3. Get a piece of paper and create a simple table: 1.0V = ____ AFR, 2.0V = ____ AFR, 3.0V = ____ AFR, etc...
3a. If you have an OBD scan tool, try to write down the fuel trims that the ECU is using: for instance, 1.0V = 11.9 AFR = +20% fuel. (note: I pulled 20% out of thin air, it might be adding more or less fuel than that)
4. Use your paper to fill in the O2 table. For instance, if you want to run 11.9 AFR when the car is boosting, and 1.0V resulted in 11.9 AFR, you will enter 1.0 in those parts of the table.
5. If you want more fuel than the stock ECU was using, you should add some fuel using the fuel map.
5a. When adding fuel to the fuel map, you might want to use the fuel trim percentages you found in part 5a.
6. Drive the car and monitor the wideband to verify that the AFR's are near where you wanted them to be.
6a. The FIC Version 2.01 software allows you to datalog the output from an AEM wideband (UEGO) sensor. Just connect the white wire from the UEGO to pin 18 (Aux input) of the 22-pin connector on the FIC.
As an aside, the stock ECU doesn't always monitor the O2 sensor. It might not be monitoring the O2 sensor at high RPMs and wide open throttle. A good OBD scanner will tell you if the car is in closed loop (monitoring the O2 sensor) or open loop (not monitoring the O2 sensor) mode. We have an AutoXray EZ-Scan 6000 here at AEM, it allows you to monitor channels such as open/closed loop status, coolant temp, intake air temp, short & long-term fuel trims, fuel injector duty cycle, ignition timing, engine RPM, engine load, MAF voltage, MAP voltage, and a few other parameters that aren't as useful as the ones I've mentioned.
09-02-2008, 08:42 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Great info, just wish I could make good use of it. Sounds like there is a large potential for power gain if we could get a good tune in the car!
09-02-2008, 10:46 PM
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yea very possible but until someone resolves the greddy emanage timing issue we will never know without going out and buying a full stand alone
09-04-2008, 09:25 PM
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The sensor produces a voltage which corresponds to a % of 02 reading. It seems producing the desired output out of an O2 sensor is a matter of a variable resistor and a volt meter.
Also, I find it hard to believe that a piggy back computer can't alter the sensor signal if that's whats necessary. I will be digging into this in the coming months, maybe you can figure it out thought and I wont have to bother.
Also, I find it hard to believe that a piggy back computer can't alter the sensor signal if that's whats necessary. I will be digging into this in the coming months, maybe you can figure it out thought and I wont have to bother.
09-04-2008, 10:45 PM
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The sensor produces a voltage which corresponds to a % of 02 reading. It seems producing the desired output out of an O2 sensor is a matter of a variable resistor and a volt meter.
Also, I find it hard to believe that a piggy back computer can't alter the sensor signal if that's whats necessary. I will be digging into this in the coming months, maybe you can figure it out thought and I wont have to bother.
Also, I find it hard to believe that a piggy back computer can't alter the sensor signal if that's whats necessary. I will be digging into this in the coming months, maybe you can figure it out thought and I wont have to bother.
09-12-2008, 11:12 PM
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Couple good links for those interested.
http://jdm-insider.com/Blogs/Eric/?p=647
http://www.dezod.com/files/FICvsEMAN.pdf
Its sounding like AEM FIC is the only way to go as it monitors the O2 sensor. I am surprised that noone has tried it yet. It can't advance timing, but thats the only shortcoming, if its even a shortcoming. The ECU should advance the timing as far as possible on its own, and only retract it when it senses knocking.
http://jdm-insider.com/Blogs/Eric/?p=647
http://www.dezod.com/files/FICvsEMAN.pdf
Its sounding like AEM FIC is the only way to go as it monitors the O2 sensor. I am surprised that noone has tried it yet. It can't advance timing, but thats the only shortcoming, if its even a shortcoming. The ECU should advance the timing as far as possible on its own, and only retract it when it senses knocking.
09-12-2008, 11:47 PM
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Yea the only downfall is that it doesnt advance timing. I mean being able to control timing on a well modded motor can easily add 15+ hp. For what im running now I would really like to get my car tuned and squeez out every bit of power and advancing as well as increasing fuel would be a good combo. I need someone to do a good deep comparison on the FIC vs the Emange Blue because at this point all I really know is that the blue cant adjust vtec and the fic cant advance timing. I want to know more before im ready to make my purchase next month.
09-12-2008, 11:52 PM
#25
well you are in luck
Yea the only downfall is that it doesnt advance timing. I mean being able to control timing on a well modded motor can easily add 15+ hp. For what im running now I would really like to get my car tuned and squeez out every bit of power and advancing as well as increasing fuel would be a good combo. I need someone to do a good deep comparison on the FIC vs the Emange Blue because at this point all I really know is that the blue cant adjust vtec and the fic cant advance timing. I want to know more before im ready to make my purchase next month.
09-13-2008, 07:25 AM
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Well my point was that with a piggyback like AEM FIC which maps the output of the O2 sensor your engine wouldn't retard timing. Maybe there is some value in advancing it a past what the stock ECU considers the "as far as possible but w/o knock" point. I really don't know, perhaps P2R or someone with actual tuning experiance can chime in at some point.
davepaul,
If you are getting the Emanage Blue, your only shortcoming is controlling the VTEC engagement point, right? Why not just get some knob adjustable VTEC controler for a $100 bucks to the job. One of the older Apexi AFCs should do the job, just leave all the fuel maps at 0%. Thought?
davepaul,
If you are getting the Emanage Blue, your only shortcoming is controlling the VTEC engagement point, right? Why not just get some knob adjustable VTEC controler for a $100 bucks to the job. One of the older Apexi AFCs should do the job, just leave all the fuel maps at 0%. Thought?
09-13-2008, 10:57 AM
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Well my point was that with a piggyback like AEM FIC which maps the output of the O2 sensor your engine wouldn't retard timing. Maybe there is some value in advancing it a past what the stock ECU considers the "as far as possible but w/o knock" point. I really don't know, perhaps P2R or someone with actual tuning experiance can chime in at some point.
davepaul,
If you are getting the Emanage Blue, your only shortcoming is controlling the VTEC engagement point, right? Why not just get some knob adjustable VTEC controler for a $100 bucks to the job. One of the older Apexi AFCs should do the job, just leave all the fuel maps at 0%. Thought?
davepaul,
If you are getting the Emanage Blue, your only shortcoming is controlling the VTEC engagement point, right? Why not just get some knob adjustable VTEC controler for a $100 bucks to the job. One of the older Apexi AFCs should do the job, just leave all the fuel maps at 0%. Thought?
09-13-2008, 01:27 PM
#28
Well my point was that with a piggyback like AEM FIC which maps the output of the O2 sensor your engine wouldn't retard timing. Maybe there is some value in advancing it a past what the stock ECU considers the "as far as possible but w/o knock" point. I really don't know, perhaps P2R or someone with actual tuning experiance can chime in at some point.
davepaul,
If you are getting the Emanage Blue, your only shortcoming is controlling the VTEC engagement point, right? Why not just get some knob adjustable VTEC controler for a $100 bucks to the job. One of the older Apexi AFCs should do the job, just leave all the fuel maps at 0%. Thought?
davepaul,
If you are getting the Emanage Blue, your only shortcoming is controlling the VTEC engagement point, right? Why not just get some knob adjustable VTEC controler for a $100 bucks to the job. One of the older Apexi AFCs should do the job, just leave all the fuel maps at 0%. Thought?
09-15-2008, 09:50 AM
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09-15-2008, 10:15 AM
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just got some good info off the TL side
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/emanage-blue-aem-fic-687190/
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/emanage-blue-aem-fic-687190/
09-15-2008, 10:28 AM
#33
just cutting off the back up circuit or fuse 4 a few seconds everytime the key is in the igniton ON position.
This will force the engine to fall bck on the NEO map settings
well at least this might wrk for NA bolt Ons
09-15-2008, 10:44 AM
#34
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Ok, i dont know how smart or dumb this is, BUT i am sure I cud or one cud build a circuit that resets the ECU everytime u turn the ignition on.
just cutting off the back up circuit or fuse 4 a few seconds everytime the key is in the igniton ON position.
This will force the engine to fall bck on the NEO map settings
well at least this might wrk for NA bolt Ons
just cutting off the back up circuit or fuse 4 a few seconds everytime the key is in the igniton ON position.
This will force the engine to fall bck on the NEO map settings
well at least this might wrk for NA bolt Ons
but should you really have to go through all that?
09-15-2008, 01:34 PM
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09-15-2008, 03:16 PM
#38
Wow..no patience on the forums...haha I'm still waiting on the guy to mail me the emanage blue, it should come in sometime this week, but before I get that installed.. I'll be getting my headers installed this weekend...I know you guys would like to have an answer right now...but shit, i guess we'll wait to see if someone does it before me and dave.