According to Comptechs header dyno page for the CL-S we only have 208hp at the wheels. How is it that Acura is the only car company that talks engine hp, and the rest of the world talks at the wheels? I thought that the whole industry switched to @ the wheel hp a long time ago? To say that the CL-S has 260hp is misleading.

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01 Silver 3.2CLs

 

Good point, anyone have any insight to this?

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2001 Acura 3.2 CL Type-S
San Marino Red/Ebony/Navi/Spoiler/Nose Mask/Mud Guards/Wheel locks/
Comptech Springs & Filter/PIAA 1969/20% Tint/Acura lettering removed/
12in Sub with AMP/Dynomated Trunk/Sub control under dash/
Clifford G4 Solaris Alarm

 

Not a single company selling cars in the US publishes HP at the wheels. Unless it is some company that I have never heard of. Where did you get your info that other companies publish HP at the wheels ?

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3.2TL with NAV

 

Whoa we loose 58 hp with ourauto slush box? How would a level ten tranny and torque converter help this if they ever come out with one? Screw headers and so on I we get a more effective tranny we'll be hallin ass

 

That is incorrect no car company measures it at the wheels.Insofar as the actual measurement goes depends on where the car is made and what standard the company goes by for instance there is SAE gross hp SAE net here in the states the Japanese may use JIS standards whereas in Germany DIN standards are common though ISO standards are also used.I think Honda uses SAE net so at the crank with accessories you have about 260HP.Jens

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1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA headlamp system tinted custom taillites and on and on

[This message has been edited by Jens Heydel (edited 01-25-2001).]

 

Marketing tool.

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CL-S
White/Ebony/Navi/Spoiler/Visor/Full Bra/Mud Guards/Cargo Net/Acura Car Cover/Tint 20%,35%,5% on Sun Roof, Rockford 250a2 Amp w/JL10w6 / K&N Drop in Filter. Comptech Springs. Polarg m-6.
Comptech Headers, Comptech Sways, Eurolite Xenon Crystal high beams.
AEM CAI once they decide to make the dame thing.

gtech 0-60 6.03 w/ 438 pound load. preheader.

 

What does it really matter what the actual horsepower is? Really....?

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* 2001 Acura CL Type S * Blk/Blk * Navigator * Spoiler * Moonroof Visor * V1 *
* Since 3/31/2000 *
* Road Warrior *

* 500 posts on h/a.net *** 400 posts "insane poster" on the "old" acura-cl.com *

 

It must have been in the 80's that everyone switched. If you recall the 60's muscle cars posted engine hp. The 80's & 90's generations had less hp ratings (but were faster) due to at the wheel numbers. It is possible that I am losing my mind, but what would the wheel hp of a 325 bimmer be? They say it has 194hp (guess), that would put it around 150 @ the wheels? That does'nt sound correct to me.

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01 Silver 3.2CLs

 

We all lose HP due to our heavy ass wheels/tires.

 

More power is better therefore if we can get more power blah blah blah.

 

It does'nt matter I'm just pissed tonight. Tell me if anyone knows what the @ wheel hp of the Maxima is? They say 225, that would be way below 200???

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01 Silver 3.2CLs

 

The Type S is fast, fast, and faster. Why do you care so much about the numbers. Drive the Type S and some other sports coupe and compare. The only fair comparison is to drive them in the real world. If you want more power in a car with all the CL features , go spend the extra 10K for another 1/2 second to 60.

 

Jens,
So what does this mean? Are we actually comparing apples to apples when we look at a US vs German vs Japanese hp rating?


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01 Silver 3.2CLs

 

Here you go: Maxima 200, stock dynoed at: 160.4 HP at the wheels!

A total drop of 61.6 HP or 27%!!!

Reference: http://www.his.com/~wc/maxima/

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Bare Bone Stock Type-S. Plenty of accessories. PIAA 19169 to be installed soon.

[This message has been edited by Nashua_Night_Hawk (edited 01-25-2001).]

 

Yes, the Maxima's posted HP is 222 not 225....and yes, the HP at the wheel would definitely be way below 200.

The 194hp BMW (the 328 not the 325) uses the 2.8L I-6 engine....and definitely the HP at the wheel would be much below that...

But people somehow forget the driveline losses (after which you get the HP at the wheels figure, which no manufacturer publishes)....the most losses would I believe be experienced by an AWD vehicle followed by a RWD vehicle, while the FWD vehicle would have the least power losses.


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3.2TL with NAV

 

Thank you sir I can sleep tonight now. But I am planning the header and swaybar upgrade to help recover some of that lost hp and get it to the wheels. Thanks again.....



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01 Silver 3.2CLs

 

The important thing to remember is that here in the states SAE net numbers are used when references are made to horsepower.Yes there was a drop in horsepower quotes from carmakers through the years this reflected the change from SAE gross figures to SAE net figures.SAE net basically is measured at the crank with accessories such as the water pump etc.SAE gross represented the bare engine not even a waterpump attached.This is one reason wy those sixties muscle cars looked so impressive.If they were to be remeasured using SAE net as the standard the numbers would not look nearly as good.I Europe it is commonplace nowadays to measure engine performance in KW (Kilowatt),a strange thing to measure an internal combustion engine's output but it works for them.Jens

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1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA headlamp system tinted custom taillites and on and on

 

Thanks for the wisdom Jens... I just have this addiction to hp and was surprised with the Comptech dyno results. I can see that we are playing on a level field with the German and US cars. That was my major concern.

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01 Silver 3.2CLs

 

As long as the car does the 0-60 time as quoted, I don't care what hp they claim. It's kinda like the monitor deal. You buy a 15in monitor, you get 14.1in viewable.

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Please have a crane drop on my car so I have to buy a new CL-S. But wait till I'm not in the car. Thanks

 

This is normal .. i had a 99 mustang Cobra and the company claim that this car has 320HP ... well i had an Air Charger on my car and when i dyno'd the Car i just got 278HP ... so i guess its normal. i know a friend who has a Z06 and when he dyno'd his car he just got 330HP at the wheels... and the C5 got 298 at the wheels. so if they said that our cars are 260HP and we got 200 at the wheels.. then its okey.

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Gold CL-S with comptech headers, mufflers,Springs, V-AFC,AEM CAI. ACE hyper black Wheels 235-40-18ZR.
In the future..Supercharger or turbo if there is any.
Gtech run 0 to 60 in 5.41sec

My car pics are On http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...521&a=11013539

 

I totally agree with Jens.

(I don't understand a word of it - but I agree!)

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CL-S #22,299 Black/Parchment/Nav, spoiler, door & fender guards, wood trim, PIAA 19169 & 9005, V1 w/remote, trunk & winter mats, Road Salt Finish by Mass DOT, only 1 scratched rim

 

Measuring with KW is the way of the new world (check out the skyline site). We are going metric. Be gratefully that Acura didn't overstate the HP, your insurance rates could go up (it is only one of many factors).

That old SAE horsepower rating was a joke. Who would run an engine with out any accessories or water pump.

Some muscle car makers (and other auto makers) actually lower the rated HP -- they don't want the insurance rates to be even higher. The insurance has brackets for different power to weights (rated HP/dry weight).

my .02


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2001 Satin Silver Cl-S w/ Navi.
Mud Guards.
Wheel locks
Toyo 235/45ZR17-97W*
T1S Proxies on Stock 17" CLS wheels
Gtech 1/8th tank 40F ~=6.1

[This message has been edited by EricL (edited 01-26-2001).]

 

I have a book that states the 1967 Corvette Stingray with an L-88 (427 cubic inches and three 2-barrel carbs) was listed at 430 hp, but actually had over 600 hp! The car came with no A/C, no radio, no heater, and very few accessories overall. The reason for listing 430 instead of 600; Chevy wanted to discourage non-racers from buying them because they were never intended for street use. Just 20 were sold in the U.S. and are considered the rarest Corvettes around!

Source: Illustrated Corvette Buyer's Guide

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2001 Acura 3.2CL Type-S
Satin Silver/Ebony
No Navi

Wheel locks/35% tint/Splash guards/PIAA 19169 bulbs/K&N 33-2178 air filter/Mobil 1 5W-30 oil & filter

 

So how much HP at the wheels does the type-S have?

 

Around 200 HP. But that depends on the temp, air pressure, variations between different cars, etc.

Look at Mike's graph in the following link:

http://www.acura-cl.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000726.html

The lower torque and hp graphs are done on a front wheel dyno and the DynoJet corrects for temp, air pressure, and humidity; these lower graphs are what a good running CL-S should be putting out. The higher curves for the HP and torque are what you can expect to get with the Comptech header.

BTW -- With the headers added, the car is making about 300 hp at the flywheel.




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2001 Satin Silver Cl-S w/ Navi.
Mud Guards.
Wheel locks
Toyo 235/45ZR17-97W*
T1S Proxies on Stock 17" CLS wheels
Gtech 1/8th tank 40F ~=6.1

 

and the imaginary car companies that say the HP at the wheels are the LCD Flat Panel Monitors, cause if they say 17" they ARE 17" viewable.

btw, i got my flat panel, its SWEEEEEET.

 

oh yeah one more thing, the 27-30 HP at the wheel increase with headers, i think i am gonna have to convert that to non-at the wheels, just so its all even.

So yeah my headers add 45 HP and my car is 305HP!!!!

yessss!

would i be wrong to say this?

 

What would really be interesting would be a 100% efficient engine.

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True Hip-hop junkie

 

And remember, Horsepower sells cars, Torque wins races....

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1998 Acura 2.3CL
Coming Soon:
'02 Acura 3.2CL Type-S

 

I could be wrong about this, but I think the 60s muscle cars were also a lot more powerful because they had basically no emissions controls. Take all that crap off the CL-S and you'd probably get another 40hp. And this is taking into consideration that the CL-S exhaust is more "free-flowing" compared to the CL-P. My basic point is cars are so much cleaner nowadays you wouldn't even believe it. We're talking literally THOUSANDS times cleaner. That cleanliness robs horsepower bigtime.

 

Finally a voice of reason. Jens, you are exactly correct. There are no auto makers that advertise their engine HP at the wheels. There never have been. It amazes me what some people can find to complain about. If this is the only thing you can find to complain about, you have been truly blessed.

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CL-S
White/Parchment
Gold Emblems
Mud Guards / Wheel Locks
Spoiler
Winter Floor Mats

 

------------------
CL-S
White/Ebony/Navi/Spoiler/Visor/Full Bra/Mud Guards/Cargo Net/Acura Car Cover/Tint 20%,35%,5% on Sun Roof, Rockford 250a2 Amp w/JL10w6 / K&N Drop in Filter. Comptech Springs. Polarg m-6.
Comptech Headers, Comptech Sways, Eurolite Xenon Crystal high beams.
AEM CAI once they decide to make the dame thing.

gtech 0-60 6.03 w/ 438 pound load. preheader.

[This message has been edited by NOVAwhiteTypeS (edited 01-26-2001).]

 

That's a good point...the Audi S4 feels substantially more powerful than the CL-S does with 250bhp, but then again the CL-S is also heavier and lacks a manual the S4 has. Someone mentioned "heavy tires and wheels." Exactly how heavy are the CL-S wheels? Are they worth replacing for a little extra performance? I always had the thought of sticking on 225/50ZR-17's on, or maybe 45-series tires of the same specifications if I wanted my backbone to be sore.

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TL Forum Moderator
Rumors/Trends Forum Moderator
Advertising Committee
...at Honda-Acura.net

 

Tel... do you have a brother who calls himself the "Super Car Genius?" Did you ever go by the name of "Crush" on usenet?

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2001 CL Type S.
No spoiler. No NAV either. No fat chics.
no "phat" chics either.

 

There is a fundamental point here that everyone is taking for granted. And that is the HP results from the dyno. NOT all dynos are the same. Most are inacurate actually. Dynos are expensive and need a lot of maintenance which I am sure that not all owners go and do. Results are meaningful only if 2 cars or the same car is measured at the same dyno. Just because that dyno said 208hp at the wheels or whatever, it does not mean that 52HP has been lost at the wheels/drivetrain compared to Acura's measures. Dyno runs are for reference purposes only. Here is a few other points:

1. As many stated, auto makers report HP at the crank. There are several ways of mesaure theough. In the US, they measure by SAE (Society of Auto Enigneers, I think) NET. In Europe they measure by either HP DIN or PS (usually used in Japan) and KiloWatts as well (this is not new they used to use this measure as long as I can remember, it is also used a lot in Australia and N. Zeland probably more than in Europe). Finally, I disagree as to KW being a weired way of measuring power, KW is all about power, it is more traditinal than other measures so it is probably the most apropriate. Being picky here though.

2. The S4 feels more powerfull because of its substantially higher torque (not HP) and the manual tranny (S4 makes 258 pounds of torque, 26 more than the CL). Torque is what makes you "feel" a car is faster. That is what slams you back to your seat. Take the 156 pounds of torque that the S2000 makes and you have to make it stay all the way to 8000 rpm for it to make substantial power.

3. Someone said that HP sells and Torque wins races. I say, people buy HP but they use torque.

4. In my opinion, it would be ideal for auto makers to actually report both HP/torque at the crank (as they already do) but also HP/torque at the wheels. I believe that only then we would know how much power an engine puts to the ground and a lot of questions and disputes would be solved that way.

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Gabriel
CL Type S

 

The 222hp 5th gen Maxima 5 speeds are making between 185-190 fwhp and about 180 ft/lbs of torque. With a y-pipe and CAI they are putting down about 200 fwhp and 190 ft/lbs of torque. The 190hp 4th gen Maxima 5 speed puts down about 165 fwhp and 170 ft/lbs of torque. With a y-pipe, B-pipe, and filter, I put down 176 fwhp and 193 fwtq. Sure, those numbers are a bit lower than the 5th gen Max and the Type S, but don't forget the 4th gen Max only weighs 3000lbs vs the 5th gens 3200lb weight and the Type S's 3400lbs.

The only car I know of that is rated by wheel hp would be the LT1 and LS1 Camaros/Firebirds. These cars are rated at 275/285hp and 305hp from the factory, respectively. They really do put down that power to wheels. I've seen way too many F-Bodies do it. GM just underrates the motors. I loved my 94 Z28 when I had it (291 rwhp/302 rwtq).

As for the Type S being "overrated" in hp. I don't think so. You've got to figure a ~23% loss of power to the wheels due to the automatic tranny, accessories, and Honda tranny (unfortunately Honda trannies seem to suck quite a bit of hp out). I know it hurts, but automatics do suck out a lot of hp. Why? Because techncally speaking, fluid is what converts the engines power to drive the wheels. Only when your torque converter locks up at cruising speed is when your drive wheels are actually connected to the engine by a mechanical gear. A 5 speed manual is all mechanical in operation where as the automatic is all fluid. A 23% loss of hp and 205hp to wheels equals about 255 flywheel hp which is within specs.


Dave

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96 Maxima SE 5 speed
(y-pipe, B-pipe, K&N filter panel)
14.91@94mph 2.4 60ft
176 fwhp / 193 fwtq

 

I agree with Gab...not to mention the range at which the torque and horspower comes in...those turbos on Audis spool fast as hell!! Our 260 is achieved at 6800rpm and we never have a plateau..it peaks and then drops...the turbo on the Audi allows it to hit a peak..plateau and then a drop, as boost can't be held. I tried telling this to the guys on the Superhonda.org board, but most of them are rice and don't understand that torque pulls you off the line..and horsepower keeps you running.

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2001 Cl-S Black on Black with Navigation
Weapon-R Dragon Filter

 

The deaf man says... I hear ya!
Hence the Mustang GT with its V8 doesn't make as much HP as our V6... but it make a heck of alot more torque. in other words, the GT would kill a stock CL-S 0-60.

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2001 CL Type S.
No spoiler. No NAV either. No fat chics.
no "phat" chics either.

 

The CL-S is 260hp at 6100 revs, not 6800. With headers the peak does move to up around 6600 revs.

However, the torque curve is flat, look at most dyno plots. Most stock turbos have higher torque down low and drop off as revs climb, although in recent years the Europeans seem to of gone the right route in properly sizing the turbo to the engine. Mitsubishi went too far in the last gen Eclipse with the t-too small (T-25) turbo running out of steam quick.

 

Some food for thought:automakers use crank power regardless of how it is measured be it DIN SAE net SAE gross JIS KW etc etc for a reason.It is repeatable,in other words if you were to duplicate the test an automaker applies to an engine to determine it's output you should in theory get the same numbers (within tolerances) that they get.As an example of this Ford recently got into trouble when they claimed a horsepower figure for one particular variation of the Mustang.However no one was able to duplicate the factory results and Ford ended up in legal dispute and had to modify a bunch of cars so that they would deliver the quoted horsepower figures.One of the the problems with wheel horsepower even if measured by the no doubt very accurate factory dynos is that you add too many variables to the equation making it very difficult to get repeatable numbers.Jens

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1992 mazda Miata lowered with Eibach springs KYB AGX adjustable struts Sparco racing buckets 4 point safety harnesses Momo steering wheel lo profile headlite system with PIAA superwhite bulbs Custom audio system Custom gauges Jackson racing supercharger with header and Greddy cat back exhaust and a ton of other stuff 2000 Honda Civic on APEX coilovers Full Alpine Audio system factory fogs with Piaa bulbs Catz ZETA headlamp system tinted custom taillites and on and on