DDT-TypeS

Thanks to all for the nice replies!!

I will take a look at the guide. You guys are the best when it comes to saying good things..some of you at least

Anyway, this is the 3rd day to drive the 6speed CLS.

Here is my small review/comments:

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1) The trade in was as follows:

2k1 CLS was on finance plan. Still owed about ~20k on the car. Dealer took in the CLS for $21k roughly (~25k odo miles). Got the 2k3 6speeder for $32,080 with NAVI/ONStar w/o tax+GAP+7year warranty.

Add that in and the total was near $34,xxx. At 6.2% APR with a 6 year loan term and a ~$550 monthly payment plan, the grand total if paid monthly w/o additional principal $$$ at the end of the 6th year, I would have paided roughly ~41,XXX for the 6speeder.

I originally traded in my integra 93 @same dealer for $4k and I paid $7k cash. So about $11,000 I downed with a loan of roughly $24k. Freakin' APR was about 11.4% on a 6 year loan term!!!

Bottom line is I think I really got raped..but still, I am bad with money management. Everyone has their priorities and mine was a BLACK PEARL 6-speed Close ratio short throw shifter CLS with NAVI/Onstar!
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Now about the car itself:

Gosh, woke up again and found out I own a 6 speed! Anyhow, I'm still trying to get a hang of the clutch. Whenever I press the clutch all the way down, SHIFT TO 1st, apply some gas to rev up the engine to about 2.5k, I slowly let the clutch go but I still get that "back and forth" type of motion. It happens some times...I guess I'm very paranoid I'm doing something wrong!!

Do you basically "keep the clutch down" and slowly let off the clutch when you gas harder at the same time? Isn't that "riding your clutch?" If I just let the clutch up and gas at the same time without "easing" the release of the clutch, the car just lunges forward

Someone tell me this: WHENEVER I UPSHIFT OR DOWNSHIFT (MORE LIKE DOWNSHIFTING--IN THIS EXAMPLE GOING FROM 5TH GEAR @60MPH INTO 4TH), SHOULD i SHIFT TO NEUTRAL, REV THE ENGINE UP TO ABOUT 4K RPM AND THEN SHIFT INTO 4TH GEAR? AKA: "DOUBLE CLUTCH"? Or should I just press the clutch all the way down then shift to 4th gear and let the clutch full up making the RPM's go up automatically?

I just want to make sure I'm freakin' shifting right. I hate that "lunging forward" and "hiccuping" motion like I didn't engage the engine correctly or something. My biggest concern is "wearing out the clutch". I just need some good advice here.

Also, when I try to parallel park, I basically keep the clutch pressed enough and I rev the engine enough to make the car move slowly. Is that also wearing out the clutch abnormally?

Besides the shifting problems, I must say I had a blast controlling the car manually. There's no doubt after 3 days that the 6-speed CLS is FASTER than my 2k1 automatic. It feels so much lighter not like the 2k1-damn tank! The best thing about the car has got to be the shifter. It feels very nice...although i think the RSX is much nicer...but definitely the 6-speed CLS shifter is very similiar to the NSX's.

I tried ONSTAR today. Nice lady over the intercom spoke to me setting up my profile and stuff. Took about 15 minutes while I was stuck in traffic. It's very impressive although I don't think I'll be using onstar much since I drive locally everyday. I did like the fact that you have 60 days to use up "30 minutes" of FREE mobile phone calling!! The onstar lady told me I will receive a phone number for my car! So that people can actually call it! Unfortunately after the 30 free minutes, I forgot to ask whether I can subscribe to this type of phone service..and how much if possible.

Everything in the car was just about rattle free. No sunroof rattles at all. Same drive side door "sounds"...nothing bad. The passenger seat didn't squeak that much...but i did notice it...
Other than those few flaws, everything in the car was great. I absolutely love how well the NAVI integrated in the interior console. No aftermarket compares in terms of integrating in the original dash. Now my ride's interior doesn't look like a freakin' accord!!

The muffler tips are nice and thick chromed. Definitely much more agressive looking...and chrome goes so well with a black car! I had my original CLS rims installed on the 2k3 6 speed CLS! I hated the 2k3 rims.

I put comptech springs and sways in the 2k1 but I don't know if I want to put in the springs in my 2k3 6speeder. I'd probably do just the sway bars...but the springs may make the ride more bumpy. I had a "tiring" time in my 2k1 with the comptech springs AND sways. Perhaps it was the WEIGHT of the 2k1 that made it feel so sluggish. Anyone find lowering their 2k3 CLS makes the ride smoother than the 2k1 CLS? If I don't put in the springs, I'll probably sell them. They are 6 months old.

I got a genuine acura cargo mat. It is very nice quality. So I don't have to pay $250 for one @weathertech.com

Well, I can only say that trading in my 2k1 automatic non-navi CLS for a 2k3 6-speed CLS WITH NAVI/Onstar was worth it. Even though i am getting bent over for the trade (in terms of money value), I'm still very happy with this car. Like Shawn S and others alike, I plan on keeping this ride well over 100,000 miles. Unless I get tranmission problems

I will take some pictures soon. I will post them here. One more question for those who put in a sub in their 2k3 6speeder/CLS: Is the wiring the same as the 2k1 CLS w/navi? They have onstar now with the NAVI system so I am suspecting different wiring scheme?

Thanks again for reading this long story and thanks for the support! You guys are great!

Zapata

Wow, nice review! You made a nice deal! 24k isn't bad and you can always refinanced with somebody else. Have you tried www.peoplefirst.com. Also you might want to check into www.lendingtree.com .....the site is awesome. Completely free. When i was trying to get a loan for my car every place i called denied me. HOnda offered me 11% :sqntfawk: Anyway, i filled out the info and within 30mins i got a email saying somebody offered me a loan at 6.9%. I was a first time car buyer with a great credit rating but no credit history. That's pretty good compared to some people on this board.


You posted a while back saying you were considering trading in your '01 right? If so glad you finally made the jump! I might be doing the same in a few months.

lou_RENAMED

Whats up Zapata, remember me I was the guy who was asking you all those questions about the AEM at the PAA meet. I see you want to trade in, well so do I, at first I didn't think it was a good idea......but after seeing all the good reviews, it opened my eyes. Not only that but if they're going to stop making the CL than I want to own the 6 speed. At least I'll know that I will be as fast as the competition, G35,350Z,even the Altima 5speed....Damn Nissan

Zapata

Lou!!! Hey bud glad you finally posted!!!! Yeah i actually considered this a while ago and then chickened out. Now that i hear that the car will probably be discontinued my urge to jump to a 6MT is stronger than ever. My qaundry is whether i take off all my mods and sell them and then sell my car and take the profit and put down a CLS OR wait till fall/winter and hope that there will one available. I'm looking at either anthracite or silver w/ navigation.

IWannanS

Just keep at it. You WILL figure it out and commit it to muscle memory. In a few days you will wonder why it was so hard at first. You wont even know what you are doing differently.

Tom2

Tom2

Another thing--

Once you master the basics, you can look forward to advanced driving- stuff like heal and toe, double clutching, rev matching etc.....

Once you get those skills, you'll have so much fun driving a manual trans. Trust me

Slimey

Congrats on the new 6 Speed!

Anyway, with respect to shifting, it doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience with a manual car. The 'back and forth' thing is a bad shift (been there, done that) and you should not try to make a habit of that.

I think (although I'm not 100% sure myself) that it is more wearing to 1) 'jump' the car by popping the clutch out when you are revving up or 2) to rev your car with the clutch 1/2 out (as you described when parking). My understanding (and someone out there correct me if I am wrong) is that the clutch is most worn during the travel from floor up - either all the way down or all the way up it is not being worn.

It takes time and practice, but it's not too hard. I carefully rev up as I am slowly letting up on the clutch pedal - so I ease into the gear, not lurch into the gear. Practice it - slowly at first, but then you can do faster starts after you get the hang of it.

You shouldn't have to pause in neutral when upshifting or downshifting. You don't have to take up the clutch in neutral between gears when downshifting. If I am easing into a stop I usually downshift from 6 - 4 (or 5) - 3 and then brake. If I am downshifting to slow to turn I usually go to 2 or 3 for the turn. Be careful if you skip 5 in shifting from 6 - 4 -- it can be easy to slip into 2 and you'll over rev the engine.

I like the OnStar phone. I don't use the other features. You'll get info in the mail about the service. The cost for phone minutes is not cheap, but they do have a variety of plans that range from $1.00 per minute to $0.28 per minute depending on how much you want to spend. The plans are all pay-per-minute and not like your hand held mobile where you get xxx minutes per month day, xxx minutes per month night/weekend, and $xx per minute after.

Have fun.

Slimey

Nice shifting advice Tom2!

I guess you are right about 'rev matching' when downshifting. I've never really thought about it and I guess that I do it unconsciously. I didn't know that it had a name.

Is it true that the clutch is 'wearing' during travel and not at the floor or when its all the way up? I've wondered about this when I wait at a long stoplight - do you keep in neutral with foot off clutch or keep in 1st with clutch to floor? I do the latter (as I was taught, unless the light is really long).

Tom2

If your clutch pedal is fully to the floor, then there is no wear occuring on the friction surface of the clutch because it is fully disengaged.

If your clutch pedal is fully "up" (with your foot off it), then there is also no wear occuring because it is fully engaged.

But if you're waiting at a stoplight, it is better to put it into neutral and take your foot off of the clutch pedal. The reason for this is because as long as you have the clutch pedal to the floor (disengaged), you are spinning the throwout bearing. To get maximum life out of your throwout bearing, it is much better to pop it into neutral and release the clutch pedal.

The easiest way to totally wear out your clutch is to rest your foot on it while driving. Don't laugh, I've seen people do this-- basically use the clutch pedal as a foot rest. That is a guaranteed way to wear the hell out of your clutch.

Another way to wear out your clutch badly is to use your clutch to "hold" your car on a hill. In other words, if your are at a red light while on a steep hill, don't put your car into 1st gear and use the clutch pedal to hold yourself there. Put it into neutral and use your brakes

JRock

Tom2, I found your responses very informative! Thanks for writing them.

I don't drive stick (yet) but plan to learn soon and you answered some questions I had in my mind as well.

Tom2

Hey, no problem, bud.

I started driving a manual trans in 1987 and still love it today!

Every car that I ever owned has been stick, except for three:

My CL-S, my M3 (which is SMG) and my Ford Escape.

In my opinion, EVERYBODY should at least learn to drive a manual trans car. If they choose not to own one, then that's okay, but they should definitely know how.....

Once you learn, you might never want to go back to an automatic again.

codehead

Yeah, you do need to easy out the clutch for normal driving (in driver's ed years ago we were given one session on a manual vw bug. The instructor told me "page at a time", meaning pretend it's a phone book and let the clutch out in a smooth motion as you would flip through the phone book till you got to the right area).

I ease the clutch out and ease on the gas at the same time in a complementary motion--the pedals make an "X" and you just get used to this motion. I know there is some paranoia about whether you are "riding" or "slipping" the clutch, but realize that a sudden power transfer is not a nice thing either, and the clutch is designed to handle this smooth transfer. It pretty obvious when you cross the line between a smooth transition and turning your clutch into a disc sander (rev it up and partially engage the clutch). You can feel slippage, and you can feel jerk--what you want is in between. Just don't worry about it too much and you'll be doing the right thing in no time. If it feels right, it is right.

As for downshifting: You do want to match rpms in some manner. I double clutch out of long-time habit most of the time (there are times when it's unnecessary due to a huge slowdown, or occasions when reaction time is more important), but I've read around the web that it's not so important now as modern synchos are more robust. But even single clutch downshifting, I'm sure you'd want to rpm-match before releasing the clutch, as the rpm change effects (compared to double-clutching) would be absorbed by a *much* smaller mass component than if you didn't, (which would make the engine, clutch, and everything else absorb the difference).

JRock

One quick question - you say "pop" it into neutral - do you not need to disengage the clutch when going from a drive gear into neutral? Is the clutch only for going from one drive gear to another?

Klamalama

Congrats on the car. BTW, you chose the best color, not that I'm biased.

Here's a tip to gain better control of the clutch until you get more coordinated and your left leg gets a little stronger: move your seat up. This will allow you to place the ball of your foot on the clutch pedal instead of your toe.

You save the clutch and throw out bearing by placing it in neutral as you come to a stop. Usually this has the least resistance at 1K RPM. Keep your eye on the tach and you'll see it so. This also allows for max engine braking and saving your brakes a bit.

Mostly just practice. In a week you'll be driving like a pro.

Slimey

I didn't know about the throwout bearing. Nice explanations.

I've been driving manuals for 20 + years as well. It took this thread for me to actually think about what I do.

I've heard about the clutch pedal = foot rest phenomenon. Isn't that what the leftmost 'dead' pedal is for. I've never done this, but...

I have used my clutch to hold myself on a slight incline while the light is changing. Not too often -- I like the real sense of the road that you feel in your left foot though.

I once had a Subaru that had a 'hill-holder' that prevented rollback when you were on an incline. Cool little feature. I think it engaged something like a parking break when you were on a hill, and then disengaged when you let out the clutch.

Tom2

I said "pop", but I meant "put". You should always disengage the clutch ANYTIME you move the stick, including putting it into neutral.

If you're into drag racing, you'll learn how to powershift, which is basically the same thing as speed shifting, except you NEVER take your foot off the gas pedal, keeping it FLOORED the entire time, including WHILE you shift. It's definitely NOT good for your tranny though

Also, when you really get to know your tranny, you'll learn that there's a point that you can actually shift gears without using the clutch at all. But I don't recommend that stuff until you really know what you're doing.

Tom2

I've heard of the "hill holder" feature, but have never driven a car that had it.

Sounds pretty cool, though......

joeandcarol2

The 6 speed clutch is definetly not the best clutch for a beginner. Its very abrupt and engages quickly when lifting from the floor. One of the most tricky I've driven so dont be too hard on yourself. Your left foot must learn where that engagement point is. And only by practice. It has to be a situation where you instinctivly know where it is and not thinking about it. If you know that and know that when actually at that point that SMALL movements of the foot are needed while actually engaging then high reving is not needed. You can even start in 1st or reverse without any gas at all. I did this but its not really for beginners.
Revving won't really hurt your clutch as long as you lift your foot off the clutch completely when your are done shifting. As you get the feel you will find you are doing less and less revving. You foot will learn how to ease the clutch out with very small movement just as a pilot makes very small movements on a yoke or control stick.
If you were near the DC area I'd take you out and show you. But dont dispair. Work on it and listen a feel the feedback. You'll get it.

Klamalama

I disagree. The only time you have to step on the clutch prior to placing it in neutral is when you are decelerating rapidly thereby "loading" the drivetrain. Stepping on the clutch when not necessary uses the throwout bearing. You're not hurting the tranny or synchros because you're not engaging another gear.

As many already know, you don't even need the clutch to change gears. By rev matching you can let the synchros do all the work but that wears them out.

joeandcarol2

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom2
[B]Hey, no problem, bud.

I started driving a manual trans in 1987 and still love it today!

Hey Tom2. I learned on my dad's 1960 Ford 3 speed on the column! Good advice btw. I also agree that learning to start your car in 1st gear with foot off the gas pedal is a needed skill for all manual drivers.
Only other (lighthearted) comment is that I have never bought an automatic car.

lou_RENAMED

I love the anthracite....I went to my local Acura dealer and saw the anthracite I made up my mind. The only thing the sales guy loved my car and was really interested on my mods, but he doesn't have a 6 speed with navi. for me. When I showed him my car with only 10k miles on it, even the manager came out to see it, I don't know if I'll do the swap with them or PAA. By the way I don't know if you have navi but you gotta get it with the 6 speed. He showed me how it works and now I want to swap just to get my hands on that. Very cooooool.

Zapata

Lou,
Yes mos-def on the Navi. I regret not doing having it now. Althought it's a luxary, i've used navi in a couple of other cars and it's simply irreplaceable when it comes to going to places and getting there on time.
Anthracite, yes. I have yet to see it in person but i've seen some pics and it looks very nice. It's still a toss up for me between that and the Silver. I guess it depends on when i decide to make the jump.
What did the dealers say about your mods???? I have bunch and was debating if I'd keep them and swap with a new car or if i'd try and trade/sell with them still on the car. The value of the car would go up for sure but a car without sways and springs would suck Alas, i guess if i want the 6MT w/ Navi it might be the price I must pay.

DDT-TypeS

Thank you everyone for your great tips! I think I'm getting the hang of the 6speed after the 3rd day. The shifting from stop to 1st->2nd is now smoother than before. I only had 2 stalls today

I guess I'm just a bit paranoid about the clutch wearing out...there's nothing money can't replace! I just find it difficult to "blip" the throttle when I downshift cause I end up over-revving which I don't know if it is a bad thing or not...but it doesn't feel bad at all when I engage the clutch.

One more question to ask:

Will I hurt the clutch in this scenario: Let's say I'm in 5th gear going about 50mph and I slow down to 40mph. I step on the clutch fully pressing it down to the bottom and I shift into 4th gear. Now I slowly/gradually let up the clutch to the point I can see and feel the RPM's rising, instead of just letting up the clutch fully in one quick motion. Wouldn't that be "OK"? I guess the clutch slips from a stop to a 1st gear start, but if I gradually let up the clutch so the RPM's can slowly rise in this 5th->4th gear case, that wouldn't hurt the clutch right?

Also, I am assuming this 6-speed CLS tranmission is built to be able to handle the 260HP @flywheel unlike the automatic version. How about stalling the car and restarting. How many stalls is considered BAD for the car?

Last but not least, how does the LSD really engage? There's no freakin' "LSD" light on the dash like there was a "VSA". I hope it really works as promised.

Thanks to all that responded. You guys are very helpful and nice enough to write back. Codehead, Tom2 to name a few... Thanks again ya'll!



PS- The NAVI is such a "must have" item. I don't care what you say about it's novelty wearing off or whatever...I think I just increased this car's long term resell value by having black pearl color body with NAVI/Onstar and of course 6-speed transmission!

Tom2

That's wrong. You're putting stress on your shift forks if you shift without the clutch pedal down, even if you're just going to put it into neutral.

Also, you're not doing your synchronizers any favors by moving the tranny out of gear without using the clutch. It's true that synchros "spin" up to match the speeds of the driven/drive gears, but once their locked together, power should be removed (clutch disengaged) before they're released.

Any time the shift lever is moved, the clutch pedal should be down. Trust me on this. I've rebuilt a few manual transmissions before.......

Tom2