cremecreme

I have the eibach pro-kit with the camber kit only on the rear! I installed the Eibach kit myself and then took it to Acura for the alignment and camber adjustment, thinking out of all people they would know what they were doing and i wouldn't have to worry. Well i happened to actually get under my car the other day and noticed the whole inside half of my tires (stock) are worn down to the steel tread! this is only after 6 months of driving. So i guess they didn't adjust the camber correctly and it took me a while to notice. just a note of caution to guys with this same set-up...to kinda pay attention to your tires. don't make the mistake i made and not look for like 6 months. Just one question....should i take it back to Acura now and have them re-adjust it or should i wait till i put my rims on, which are 18 inch, does it make a difference in camber?

Thank you


Upgrades
Eibach Pro kit, ignalls camber kit
K&N inktake,DC sports headers OEM spoiler kit, interor lights Blue Leds
5.6 headrest montiors, rear armrest mounted DVD player
smoked tailights, Alpine 6x9's coming up 18inch ROX racing RX6 wheels and
??catback exhaust

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Well, if your tires are worn down to the steel belt, then you definitely need to get new tires and have the alignment checked. Take the car in and request that they fix the alignment since they performed the alignment and it appears to be out of spec.

vwong

It sounds to me like the guys at Acura didn't know how to align the wheels properly. And from what you said, it seems like the excessive tire wear could be the cause of toe rather than camber. I'm assuming that they adjusted the toe first, then adjusted the camber. If that was the case (which you may not be able to find out), then they were wrong. It should be the other way around. Adjust the camber first, then adjust the toe, then go back and check the camber again.

AlterZgo

I would adjust the alignment after you put on the new rims and tires.

Dan Martin

Why?

kurt_bradley

The other thing you need to is to request a spec sheet of your car's measurements before and after the alignment. This will tell you that the car was out of spec and then corrected within specification. All alignment machines provide this information, and the dealer should offer it without request to make you feel as if the job was done correctly. They should also go by the specs for an alignment for the TSX with Comptech Springs installed. Something tells me they did it to stock settings. Most dealers already have these specs for the lineup so that they can sell the parts without any delay. You can also call Comptech yourself and get them to email you the specs, just to play it safe. Bring these specs in for your alignment once you get new tires.

As for your tires, in 6 months, how many miles did you put on them? Did you rotate them properly. How long did you have the springs installed before you aligned the car? These are pretty important questions.

If you're going to install new wheels and tires, do that right before you align it, being that any adjustment to the suspension (which includes wheels and tires) will throw it back out of spec in most cases.

cmf

I don't think it could have been put any better.

AlterZgo

Because I've always been told it is best to perform the alignment with the suspension, tires, wheels, sway bar, etc. you will be using. It's possible that changing rims and tires - especially going from tires which are heavily worn on the inside to brand new rims and tires - could affect alignment settings. This seems to make sense as a worn tire will not sit perpendicular to the road.

There's another recent thread about how installation of a comptech sway bar alone also threw off the alignment.

If a person were going to do modifications in stages, ie. get springs/shocks now, wait several mos, buy sway bar, wait several mos, buy rims and tire - then it would make sense to do an alignment after each modification in order to maintain handling and prevent excessive tire wear.

However, in this case, the stock tires are completely worn. New rims and tires will be arriving shortly. It just seems to be a good idea to do the alignment after all suspension/rim/tire modifications are complete. If he has an alignment done now, it may be thrown off when he bolts on the new rims/tires. Given that the current tires are already shot, he's not going to gain much benefit from doing an alignment right now.

Dan Martin

Good point.

xizor

would the toe wear the inside of his tires like he stated? that sounds most like a camber issue. toe would scrub diagonally across the tire? I think toe is more noticable too, when my toe was off in the rear the backside would skip in different directions after going over bumps, camber is probably unnoticable in daily driving.

vwong

Oh yeah. If the mechanic adjust the rear camber back to stock specs (which is -1 degree of camber), and the toe is off a little, it would wear out the inside of the tires.

The reason I think the toe is off is because he has Ingall rear camber kit. In order to adjust the camber properly, the mechanic has to adjust both links. It's a little tricky (and sometimes....time consuming) to do alignment with adjustable arms like the Ingall ones.

AlterZgo

vwong,

Can you recommend a good alignment shop in So Cal? Preferably South Bay, Torrance area, but I don't mind driving far to have the work done right. Thanks.

vwong

Westend Alignment in Gardena, (310) 808-9233, ask for Darrin. Many auto-x'ers and road racers take their cars to Westend for alignment. That means he can align the car to what you like. One thing though, it's by appointment only.

euroStyle

also, you shouldnt get the car aligned right after you lower the car. you need to let the springs settle in before alignment. if not, you'll need another alignment.

xizor

I heard that, but I aligned mine right after getting it done b/c if you put the camber kit on, there's very little chance of you getting the car near drivable since you'll throw off the toe when you do it by sight. i don't think mine "settled" all that much even after a couple weeks though

Xtremespeed2102

hmmm sounds like we need to get someone to write something up for the FAQ here. there is some very useful information being said here and some very intelligent people who know what theyre talking about.

correct me if im wrong, i dont think there is an FAQ for aftermarket suspension. or a how to.... but then again i have checked it in a while and i probably didnt notice it if it was there
any way.
just thought i should pop my head in since i am totally new to aftermarket suspension and what not and b4 i do anything i like reading what you guys hafta say.... i do hafta mention that the only way i knew about the resonator was from this board and with the help from here i was able to get it off properly, so i hope to have the same success with further mods with the help of this page

AlterZgo

Thanks! Right in my backyard.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

You are right to get a new alignment, and I will tell you why.


Toe kills tires WAY faster than camber ever will. Sound like a bold statement? Conventional wisdom is that when you lower the car you need a camber kit if you don't wanna wear out the tires fast. Well, there is another adjustment/spec here than nobody has mentioned. Caster is the key.

When you lower a double wishbone car like the TSX, the camber angle alwys increases. It is what makes the car handle better in turns than strut cars. It is a natural effect.

Lowering TSX and many other cars also increases the toe angle, which is to say it points the tires outward. They kinda fight for direction where the car wants to go.

But also, realize that all cars have some positive caster. The means that when you turn the wheel, the axis of rotation is not 90 degrees. You may notice it more exaggerated on BMWs and Benzes. The best way to view the angle is to turn the wheel all the way to one side, and get out and look at your car. Notice the wheel is turned, but also kind flopped over? Have a friend with a S500 (if you have one) do donuts while you watch outside. The wheels really flop over on those cars!

Think of it like pushing a wheel barrow. The angle from the axle to the handle is like caster. Pick up a wheel barrow and stand it veritcal on the tire with the handles straight in the air. Now imagine pushing it and trying to turn it. Haha...it just fell on you! Now imagine pushing and turning it normally. Much easier. Much more stable. And when you trun it, the tire is not actually turning. It flops over on it's side and leans! That is how your car turns too! That is how motorcylcles turn and well.

Caster is great for high speed stability. That is why all cars have some dialed in. Without it, the car would be super twitchy and hard to control at speed.


The problem is, when you lower the car and toe angle is thrown out, the wheels are actually riding on the inside edges of the tire as they grind away pulling the car in different directions! This is in addition to the increased camber effect! With an improper alignment the car will WASTE tires in a matter of months (or weeks if you drive like me).

The trick to lowering the car and having the tires last is to get a good 4-wheel alignment to fix the toe angle. I AM COMPLETELY SERIOUS when I say that, as an authorized Tein distributor, I have NEVER sold a camber kit. I have had over a dozen hondas, all lowered, and most lowered past 2". I have never had a camber kit on ANY of my cars. The ONLY car that I had a problem with tires with was my 94 accord which I had never aligned.

Camber will tend to wear tires out somewhat quicker than stock, but generally speaking, with a good toe alignment, the increased wear will not be cumbersome or even really significant. The added camber actually makes the car handle a little better. Also, a little camber in conjuntion with the caster will wear the tires out almost evenly! So why get rid of it?


I recently sold a set of teins on this board here and told the guy to get the shocks, put them on, get the alignment, and monitor the tire wear he was having. If it was too ecessive for him we would set him up with a camber kit. We shall see what happens.

With a drop under 1.75", you should not need to even worry about it, because a drop of that much will not even throw the car out of factory camber specs! But that toe will be in the red every time!





Other things of note!

Camber and Caster are not adjustable on our cars! I think we already know that , but I was just noting it. Toe is fully adjustable front and rear.

A rear camber kit is a big waste of money on a front wheel drive car. The wheels back there are just free wheeling. There is little weight on them and the is no load/torque on them. Traction is not an issue and wear is nearly non-existant. If you are going to get a camber kit for your TSX, you only really need it in the front.

Some people wonder why TSX and other hondas do not have camber-adjustable pillow mounts available. That is a different post for a different thread My fingers are too tires for now.

Alignment shops are like body shops. Most of them suck, but they are a necessary evil in our world. The trick is to find a good one you like. I hear a lot of good thigs about west-end. There are a couple in South Orange County here I recommend. I know a lot about alignments because I did them at work for a while. I wish I had an alignment machine JUST so I could do my own now!




Marcus

kaikai114

very nice detailed write up

How about Firestone's Lifetime alignment service for $150? Are they any good?

-K

xizor

the firestone here said my car with the pro kit was too low to align, morons. I went ouside and saw my car had almost as much clearance as the ford taurus I was parked next to.

i got mine at merchant/ntb. they'll only do it to spec and its only 5 yrs, but for what you can get, its worth it.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

All they meant was "We can't get your Camber within spec," as well they may not have been able to do. But, that does not mean they can't align it. The GOTTA ADJUST THE TOE!

At the dealership, I used to have a little phase I made up for cars that were in accidents that the alignment was all messed up. Toe out, Camber wierd (like positive on one side and negative on the other), and Caster being way out.....ADJUST THE TOE AND LET IT GO! The only reason why is because there really is not much else you can do!

slobeatz

This post made me run out and check my rear tires...and what do I see. Completely bald!!!! Actually the outside is worse than the inside, but bald nonetheless. Looks like I have a problem with my toe angle more than anything else. I swore I checked it like a month ago and it was fine. Probably from all the horrible roads up here. Looks like 2 new tires and an alignment again. Or maybe I'll just go back to stock.

xizor

I'm pretty sure they said it was too low to fit on their equipment. They said I needed to get aligned on a machine that had a pit undernearth. I have a camber kit, they were just idiots.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

The alignment rack that I used is the kind that you drive up and then it raises off the ground. However, my front spoiler still scrape the ramp going up. Most alignment shops know about the toe adjustment as it's usually the only adjustment available on most cars, and pointed out by MrHeeltoe. The Ingall camber kit might be even more confusing for most shops if they don't know about the two links adjust both camber and toe.

xizor

they had the drive up kind, and the one where i finally did get my alignment had the same drive up machine, no need for a pit. I'm just saying Firestone guys were stupid and blew me off b/c my car was lowered.

al8818

BOTH camber and toe can destroy a tyre pretty quick.

Negative Camber in a car does not necessarily improve handling. It does optimize the contact patch as the car leans over so that the work done is even accross the contact patch and not just on the outer tread shoulder. It increases the mechanical grip when the contact patch is optimized ie temperature is even accross the tread.

Handling is improved only when the rear and front grip is balanced for nearer neutral steer or mild understeer. Too much grip in the rear at the limit forces the car to understeer. To reduce rear grip to balance the grip with the fronts usually means a heavier rear bar OR a reduction in negative camber. It may also need an increase in negative camber in the rear.

WEAR: Camber also makes the tire turn toward the direction in which the tire is leaning. The more camber the more the tire wants to turn in that direction. This is true of one single tire. Now imagine a pair like the front axle. If both have equal camber it cancels out each other and the car tracks straight. But they are fighting each other but going straight. It is sort of the same effect with toe, both fight each other but still tracks straight ahead. The loser is the tire.

The wear effect of negative camber is true even if the car has 4-wheel alignment. However if you perform a side-slip test on this perfectly aligned car(for toe), you will probably find there is a moderate degree of side slip which if one doesn't know better assumes it is too much toe. Side slip tests are valid for toe as long as camber is near zero. However even if toe is perfect, with negative camber it produces a side thrust similar to toe changes.

Most alignment shops as someone rightly pointed out also only(mostly) does toe alignment only. Again assuming that camber is non-adjustable.

The Eibach Pro IMO have the most drop and therefore will increase negative camber the most which may explain your rapid.

I am not discounting the possibility that the service center has botched up the alignment. If so get someone else to run the alignment.

The rear of the TSX comes with more camber even when in stock tune. Its more pronounced with the lowering provided by the Eibachs.

I believe that if your toe specs are normal and that you somehow manage to get the camber kit for the front and adjust so that camber is nearer neutral or zero, wear will be pretty even.

al8818

Or another way of looking at this is: Since you have done 2 things, used lowering springs and done an allegedly dodgy alignment, you have 2 main culprits.

Run another alignment by someone reputable and that leaves the last suspect and its attendant side effects.

AL

slobeatz

That's exactly what I'm doing. Mine's going to Acura this time and I'm specifically giving them the directions for the camber kit, so they get it correct. If it's still a problem, the eibachs are coming out and the car is going back to stock.

NJtsx

i just have to say this has been one of the best threads i have ever read through in my time on these boards. Thanks guys

see their is useful stuff among all the other crap here.

cmf

If your car is too low, they may not do it. I initially took my car to Acura for an alignment, but they couldn't touch it, cause their rack was too high off the ground. If you have an NTB in your area, they should be able to help out. Like Xizor, that is where I ended up going.

slobeatz

No NTB's in NY. All we've got here are Firestone, Goodyear, Midas, etc. The dealer up here is pretty good about modified cars. They were selling a heavily modified Integra a little while back. Plus I saw a modified RSX in the service area as well. I definately have to go and get new tires tomorrow though. I'll see if that place can do it to spec.

kaikai114

Aye, reason I asked was I havent heard a lot of good things about Firestone. Not only are their tires suck (IMHO), their technicians dont know a whole lot either Just thought it'd be a good deal with lifetime service. We'll see what happens, I'm gonna ask them for my alignment spec sheets for sure.

-K

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Ture. I was just saying that Camber translated into better handling in a lay-person's sense. Generally speaking, any improvment in cornering traction or balance in my simplest mind translates to better handling. However, lowering without spec'ing the adjustmenst could really be bad for handling. For best handling, a full tune of suspenstion equipment is needed.

I have not had a lot of experience with any of this. What is side-slip, specifically? The machine I used was basically the m ost primitive one I have ever seen. In a way it forced me to compensate and think better than the machine. But also it did not have a lot of fancy adjustments and readings for me to do either.

But, Prokit is eibach's milder spring. The Sportline will drop the car more.....Also Tein coils are lower than pro-kits too.

Pro-kit f/r lowering, 1.2/1.3
Sportline f/r, 1.9/1.6
Tein STech f/r, 1.7/1.3
Tein HTech f/r, 1.1/0.7

The mildest drop is the Tein HTech, but the Pro-kit I would not say is an extreme drop at all......

This is true. Neutral camber and a good alignment is what you need to get rid of wear completely.

xizor

Prokit is 1.6/1.4, the numbers you're quoting are the accord i4 I believe which uses the same part

al8818

Side-Slip Test: A relative simple device used in Compulsory Annual Testing centers to do a quick check on the car's wheel alignment.

It is a sliding steel plate that is built into the concrete floor of a test center. The Steel plate is spring loaded and is also connected to a series of gears and pinions that measure the amount of movement in a lateral direction when the test vehicle is driven slowly over the device. The size of the plate is no bigger than a A4 paper.

There is only one device/steel plate. First the fronts are driven over and the result is checked. Then the rears are driven over and checked.

This simple device does not need alignment clamps and devices to be mounted on the wheels so the Annual testing is completed quickly.

Since at any one time one tire is on the measuring plate and the other three firmly planted to the ground, any toe or camber will be detected as a side thrust as the tire rolls over.

Lowering Springs:

I cannot see the benefit on road going cars to have the suspension lowered more than a set of Eibach Pros which I already consider too low. I have Tien Flex, Comptech, Eibach Pro, Espillier and H&R. I have Konis and Bilstien shocks. I have been experimenting with various combinations.

The Eibach Pro is comfortable, yes but I want them to be stiffer to compensate for the loss of suspension travel. They progressively firm up under compression. Great but I had trouble getting a damper rate to suit the constantly changing spring rate. Also the underside of my car ran into too many objects for my liking. A heart rendering sound for sure. And it makes me slow down far too much for my liking when there are speed bumps or uneven roads or slopes. And last they did not translate into discernable handling benefits. They also seemed to lower the car more than the advertised drop. Their free length was marginally the longest of the lowering springs in my collection but dropped the most.

The Comptech springs lowered nearly as much but seemed stiffer than stock. Handling response improved with more directness. Crunched the underside much less but it still happened. I could live with this spring. They looked shorter than the Eibach springs but did not lower as much but close. Although they have a progressive element, it was not pronounced and the Konis could be tuned to get a proper damping rate. Great all round spring if lowering is all important to you.

The H&R springs(came with my Bilstien B12 kit) were the shortest springs in my collection but lowered the least, almost 10mm higher than the Comptech in ride height. They are the firmest and the suspension travel allows me to drive with near abandon over all roads. There is a modest drop but overall I like this spring on the Konis! Not the Bilsteins. Steering response and handling is marginally the best slightly shading the Comptech. Ride has suffered a little but acceptable.

The Tein Flex has the most adjustment and perhaps the stiffiest spring rates. Suspension travel looks very short but I couldn't detect any bottoming out. They did lower to the extent my bumper scrapped things. But that is not why I took them off, it was the suspension noise that is transmitted throught the unnecessary pillow mounts. I couldn't live with the noise. But they could really lower the car if that is important to you.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

al8818, great info on the various suspension setup.

Dan Martin

Very good info in there.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Because it looks cool. Yeah, there are comprimises to be made, but hey....

slobeatz

Took my car in for alignment today at the dealership. The alignment was an inch and a half off, which explained the tire wear problem. I've got to say that the dealership was great. Even with the modifed suspension they gave me no hassles.

kurt_bradley

Good to hear.