Is it possible ... by thickening up the rear sway bar (or whatever other method)..to make the TSX neutral? Can we completely rid the TSX of understeer? Can we make it handle as neutral as a rwd car?

The only limitation I can think of...is when powering through our out of a turn you can induce understeer (via tire spin)...no matter how neutral your car is.

 

Another example of where I feel no hesitation in addressing a technical subject despite not knowing anything, on the grounds that sometimes common sense rules:

If that were any kind of a good idea, Honda/Acura would have done it.

 

FDL, they remarked in the TOV TSX driving impression that the steering was pretty neutral for an FF chassis... only understeer at the limits of the turn, they said. I think if you played around with the tire pressures you could enhance the effect more so, that coupled with a larger sway bar perhaps... TSXAutoXer might know...

 

Car companies often build a certain amount of understeer into their cars intentionally, even some rwd cars, as it is safer and easier to recover from understeer, than oversteer.

Most drivers dont want their back end to fishtail out...but i do

 

Again, I know nothing, but.

I would imagine you can reduce understeer a bit by

1) putting a bit of negative camber on the front (so the tires bite a little more during turns) and then

2) thickening the rear sway.

3) Adjust tire pressures.

 

Well, in that case.....

Actually, that's exactly what I thought, so maybe I don't know nothing..... uh, I mean maybe I do know nothing......

 

4) adjust the toe to have a little toe-out. By adjusting toe-out in the front, your turn-in will improve. By adjusting toe-out in the rear, the car will rotate better in steady state (or sweeper). However, the drawback of having toe-out is that you'll go though tires quicker (much quicker than having a -2 deg. of camber with zero toe).

 

hm...I thought making the rear sway bigger would actually increase understeer.....

 

nope. Increasing the diameter of the rear sway will increase the cars tendancy to oversteer.

 

sweet. Comptech rear sway here i come.

 

Ditto. This would be the case with front wheel drive cars. For rear wheel drive cars you would want a larger front bar to increase oversteer.

 

OK, I found some info which may be useful in making the TSX more neutral.

WARNING: Don't try this at home unless you are comfortable with recovering from oversteer.

Understeer Corrections - Push, plowing, front tires slide out first.

Raise front tire pressure.
Lower rear tire pressure.
Soften front shocks. Stiffen Bump.
Stiffen rear shocks.
Lower front end.
Raise rear end.
Widen front track.
Install shorter front tires.
Install taller rear tires.
Install wider front tires.
Install narrower rear tires.
Soften front sway bar.
Stiffen rear sway bar.
More front toe out.
Reduce rear toe in slightly.
Increase front negative camber.
Increase positive caster.
Soften front springs.
Stiffen rear springs.
May need more front suspension travel.
Install wider front wheels.
Use softer front compound if possible.
Use harder rear compound if possible.
Remove weight from front of vehicle.
Add weight to rear of vehicle.
Drive a different line.
Use weight transfer to your advantage.
High Speed. Increase front wing downforce.
Too much front brake.
Lower front and rear tire pressures slightly.
Increase negative camber front and rear if possible.



A properly set up vehicle will usually push slightly on corner entry, be fairly neutral at the apex (STEADY STATE) and exhibit slight power oversteer on corner exit. Tight courses may require more oversteer, fast tracks understeer.

Items needed: Accurate tire pyrometer, tire gauge, notebook and tape measure. Suspension information books.

Note: This is a sample of the methods used to correct various handling problems. Books have been written on this subject. Not every correction will always work as expected. Stiffer front sway bars will, in many cases, decrease understeer because of reduced body roll and better camber control. The best rule is to change only one thing at a time and keep notes.

Follow these suggestions at your own risk, we listed them to make your racing safer.

---------------------------------------------------
EDIT: OK..here is EVEN more info ..if you are interested....

Understeer in General
move rear weight back
raise rear tire pressure
less cross weight
increase wheel lock
raise rear shocks
lower front tire pressure
less rear spoiler
less front sway bar
more rear sway bar

Understeer Entering Corner
raise right rear tire pressure
lower right front tire pressure
stiffen right rear shock
soften right front shock
soften left rear shock
increase spoiler
move rear weight forward
less cross weight
increase camber

Understeer in the milddle
less cross weight
decrease rear spoiler
move rear weight backward
lower right front tire pressure
raise left front tire pressure
raise right rear tire pressure
lower right rear tire pressure
soften right front shock
stiffen right rear shock
less front sway bar
more rear sway bar

Understeer exiting corner
lower left front tire pressure
raise right rear tire pressure
stiffen left rear shock
soften left front shock
soften right rear shock
increase wheel lock
decrease rear spoiler
move rear weight forward
less cross weight
increase front camber
less front sway bar
more rear sway bar

 

Well if you have a Prelude SH, it has the ATTS system that will actually give you some oversteer

I just wish Acura would have this system in the RSX/TSX or something.

 

Hey, FDL -- just curious: Where'd you get that stuff?

 

Various racing websites.

 

I'd rather have a real LSD. I have the Prelude SH too, and I like the ATTS, but to a certain degree. It works great on the street and road courses, however it sometimes malfunctions during the auto-x, and that pisses the hell out of me because you'll never know when it would malfunction. There were couple times when it malfunctioned during my last run and I needed that last run to try to finish ahead of the class.

 

Good to know that. Thanks

 

Good to know that. Thanks

 

Hmm, increase rear sway bar diameter? That's a way to do it. Just wondering, if you think TSX needs a thicker rear sway bar to aid turning, since when and what occasion makes you think so? Did you race the car on track? I'm just curious...

 

I haven't raced the car but I have had some fun...took some real hard turns and stuff and for the most part got alot of understeer. I want the car to be more neutral..and when i want it to..actually rotate.

 

mmm, i would like TSX to oversteer a bit... it is so hard to get it's rear wheel to slide..... i used to use the sign of slight oversteer as close limit; like car is warning me "you are approaching it" i don't like car suddently goes into understeer before giving me any warning. to me, slight overrsteer is good, and i like drifting, dail the turn, press gas and pull the hand brake, i can still maintain direction, with understeer, the nose just not aiming and especially bad things can happen very quickly with traction control (it's trying it's best and once out of it's limit, heavy understeer)... i would like some oversteer too.... that's why i want to weight off front to the back!!!
just some of my experiences,

 

It's been noted by TOV among others than the tsx has a very small rear sway bar.... in fact aftermarket companies aren't even producing front swaybars for the tsx, just rears.

 

gogozy, I understand your desire for more (any) oversteer, but do you really feel the TSX "suddenly goes into oversteer before giving any warning"? It sure doesn't feel that way to me. I think it has a very smooth transition to slight understeer that increases very progressively unless you jerk the wheel or something. Is that not your experience too?

 

no, i had not experience understeer nor oversteer in my tsx yet, have not drive hard enough, probably after 1st oil change!! but no oversteer/warning at all is bothering me, but maybe because i ahd not drive hard yet!! soon after the oil change!

 

Not only that, but the US legal system tends to support understeer. In the US, precedence has been set that if a driver is turning and drives into a wall, it must be the driver's fault for going too fast. If the car's back end swings around, then it must be a fault with the car manufacturer. Of course, the driver is almost always to blame, but the car manufacturers are just covering their own bases.

 

...and they should continue to support understeer. The problem is that when an average driver (who has no idea what under/oversteer is) gets into a skid, their natural reaction is to hit the brakes no matter what. In an oversteer situation, this is the (generally) correct thing to do, but if you get into oversteer and hit the brakes, you'll spin like a top. Much more dangerous. Understeer is here to stay on all but the highest-performing cars.

 

Agreed...understeer is much much easier to control and should be what all cars do out of the box. Your average joe drives too fast into a turn...understeer...lets of the gas and/or brakes and all is good. Now if that average joe had his tail slide out...average joe would not know what to do and would crash.

But for ...more experienced drivers... being more neutral or have some oversteer will let you take a turn much quicker, and point the nose of your car where you want it. RWD will be better for this because you can actual add oversteer in a turn whenever you want by hitting the gas. And for us front drivers...we can always have some fun with the hand brake!

 

Hmm, I do have a feel that a thicker rear bar will be better. I'll say, go for it. Also, change the brakes and if you want to, put an LSD. In my opinion, TSX is quite balanced. I want better brakes so I could brake into the corner deeper. The stock brake is a piece of crap (or really close to). And when I try to power out of a corner, LSD wiill help gain some traction. The inner front wheel always spin when I really want to put down some power exiting corner.
Anyways, have you replaced the stock tires yet? If not, that'll be the first thing to do. Then I'll go for the brakes, LSD, then sway bar.
I just won't do any of those because of the car classification rules. But good luck.

 

Oh, if you still get 'a lot' of understeer, do you think you get into the corner too hot? Cool down...

 

LSD would be nice...but I dont think it would work with the VSA?

 

Don't think it would. Just disable VSA then. I think there's a fuse that you can take off to disable VSA, but I'm not sure...

 

YA ... but i'd like to keep VSA for winter and every day driving. It would be a tough choice...LSD vs VSA....I wish there were a way to have both.

 

Tire pressure is a good correction for your problem, if you fix it let everyone know with a large write-up...

 

:revivalofthefittest:

 

I was thinking about that a few days ago. To make weight distribution 50/50, one would have to shave awayin excess of 675lbs in the front (depending one where you take that weight weight from). That still is very significant.

You could reduce it by moving things around, like the battery to the trunk, and the windshield washer reservoir, etc. But that would still leave you with a handsome 550 to 600lbs to remove from the front.

 

Hmm. At first I was convinced the the Comptech RSB was the way to go, but if Honda spec'd the smaller one on purpose for safety reasons...

I never race, but I think I know what to do if the rear-end starts to come out from behind me. But this is the family car. Would my wife know what to do? I think I'd just like it to be closer to neutral, maybe still slightly on the side of understeer.

So, does anyone know if the Comptech bar creates any oversteer, or does it just reduce the understeer?

 

You asked this in another thread which I replied to. No it doesn't oversteer, it still understeers slightly at the limits. If your wife were to get into an oversteer scenario, VSA would kick in quickly to bring it back inline.

 

Yes, sorry I asked it in a couple of places because I kept finding old threads on the subject, and each seemed better than the last (and I wasn't sure which ones were being watched anymore). Anyway, thanks for the answer(s)!

 

FYI, any thread you post in will pop up to the top when folks hit "find new posts", even very old threads started long ago.

 

Disagree here..or at least potentially. Depending on the tires and inflations you are running you can definitely get hte back end to come around when pushed to this' limits...but it's more of a controlled 4 wheel slide (if that's even possible )