suzook

my wifes tsx with only 84k miles seized up over the weekend. she went to start it on sun morning, and nothing happens. we tried to jump it, it cranked a hair and stopped. we then noticed fuel pouring out from the tb. i removed the hose, and the whole intake was filled with fuel. I then turned the engine backwards a little with a wrench, tried to start it again( after i removed the fuel). It cranked and stopped. When i try to turn it forward, it is stuck. I am assuming the motor is seized, or maybe the starter is stuck at that particular point. Any thoughts? If it is seized, could i use my comp coverage from my ins co? If so what would i tell them? Please help.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

That doesn't sound good. Is there any oil in the crankcase?

Jim Holloman

You need to get the car to a dealership.

It sounds like one or more cylinders were flooded with gasoline -- causing an hydraulic lock. It is not because the starter is stuck.

> after i removed the fuel

I can't imagine how you removed the fuel.

shmork53

That doesn't sound good. It does sound like you hydrolocked it and bent a rod or something else internally. If thats the case you will have to do a full lower engine rebuild, good luck. Oh yeah, good luck waiting for parts for this job, I had to wait almost a month to get some rod and crank main bearings.

Jim Holloman

To expand a little, when a piston is on a compression stroke, both the intake and exhaust value (or values) are closed. This cause the piston to compress the air in the cylinder. If the cylinder intakes a fluid that does not compress, such as water or gasoline, then you have a hydraulic lock that will prevent any further rotation -- at least in one direction. Be sure to tell the dealership that this scenario ought to be considered.

The one thing that you might do is to pull the plugs and see if the engine will turn with the plugs out. However, I would not try to restart the engine. Whatever caused the flooding in the first place has to be determined and fixed. Watch out for sparks around any gasoline vapors -- and have a good fire extinguisher at hand.

wackura

What causes things like this to happen and is there something a person can do to avoid it?

Jim Holloman

Not likely due to any neglect by an owner and no preventive maintenance will likely be of any value. I would speculate that either a sensor, or a fuel value, failed -- causing the engine to be flooded with gasoline -- but it is pure speculation. It could even be in the ECU. In any case, it would be a very rare event.

Hopefully, the OP will let us know how it develops. It is clearly time to get an experienced, and trained, mechanic involved.

Mokos23

i've never heard of this before

suzook

i purchased it a dealer less than 3 mos ago. It is not an acura dealer. They will be checking it today, but i dont expect them to fix it. Does anyone know if i could use my comp coverage from my ins company to cover the repairs?

suzook

hydraulic lock!!!!!! cyl #2 filled completely with fuel. This didnt happen when the car was running. Wife went to start the car, and nothing. I removed the plugs and rotated the engine a few times, and fuel came flying out of #2. I replaced plugs, it now cranks fine, but wont start. I am guessing it is flooded. Non acura dealer i bought it from just picked it up. What are the chances something internally broke, just by trying to turn it over using the starter? I can understand somthing breaking if the car was running, but i am wondering how damage could have been done with the starter getting stuck when #2 cyl tried to compress?

Jim Holloman

It is not likely that anything in the engine is bent. However, you might have a tooth on the flywheel (or converter) or the starter pinion gear that is damaged.

The real task is to determine what caused the problem and to effect a fix that will ensure that it does not happen again. For that, an Acura dealer would be better equipped. For one thing, the Acura dealer has access to a support network that includes a history database.

You insurance is probably of no value in this case. I would look to the dealer to repair the car since you have had it only a short while and did nothing to contribute to the problem. If the dealer will not properly fix the problem, then consider asking the dealer to buy the car back (recind the contract). If the dealer declines, then you might want to talk with an attorney.

Was the gas tank topped off the day before this occurred? If it was, I don't think I would answer that question. Was the gas gauge sitting on Full when the car was hauled back to the dealer? Acura warns against overfilling, but it supposedly has something to do with the emissions control.

suzook

car was not fueled up. about 3/4 tank. I will patiently await word from the dealer. I think cars that have over 70k miles only have a 30 day warranty. I am hoping they do the right thing, but we know no one seems to care about the customer these days. I will keep this post updated. Thanks for the replies

Mokos23

if i bought an acura and it wasn't from an acura dealer i would right after buying it go set up an appointment with an acura service dealer and ask them to do some preventive maintenance anad check it on it before i seriously drive it everyday.

LukeaTron

I think what likely happened is an injector failed in such a way that was stuck open. As soon as you turn the key to "on" the fuel pump starts and doesn't shut off until a certain pressure is reached in the fuel rail. If the injector was stuck open, it won't build up pressure and will just keep dumping fuel through that injector. I can't think of any other failure that would result in fuel being dumped into the engine.

I would not try to start the car. At very least you have a lot of gas in your oil. The piston rings only seal well under pressure. A bunch of liquid gas sitting on top of the cylinder will readily drain past the rings into the engine. I would recommend having a shop pull the oil pan and inspect the bottom end for damage. You may have killed the catalytic converter as well. If there's liquid gas in there and then engine were to start, you will shortly thereafter have a sizable explosion under your car.

I'd let the pros handle this one, if for no other reason than any further damage will be their liability.

suzook

No amount of preventive maintenance would have avoided this. This is a fluke( of course it had to be me). Only time will tell what will be done. I agree with the last post about the injector getting stuck open. That seems to me what probably happened. Why it happened is anyones guess.

Mokos23

so i guess it's past the 30 day warranty

suzook

Of course it is. 80 days.

Mokos23

sucks

Jim Holloman

That could make for a very impressive explosion -- would make a rod going through an engine block look like child's play. Then, the damages would be compounded.

At present, the damages might be only a few hundred dollars .

LukeaTron

I suspect the oxygen content is too low inside the block for any serious explosion to occur. I think the more pressing issue is the fact that gasoline is not a fantastic lubricant. That and the fact it's going to thin out the oil, possibly allowing it to leak through things it wouldn't otherwise (seals, rings, etc.).

Like I said, I'd have a shop pull the oil pan for a quick look see before deciding to how to proceed. If you're lucky no serious damage was done. It sounds like you might have dodged a bullet this time since the engine didn't turn very far before it seized. Had there been less liquid in the cylinder allowing it compress some before suddenly slamming to a halt, your potential for damage would be higher. It sounds like it didn't turn very far before it stopped so there would be less momentum in the moving parts.

Miamicarfan

Your injectors may be bad. But also consider the ECU. Guys, doesn't the ECU control the injectors?? If the ECU is bad, it can pump too much gas to the cylinders.

The engine seizing is something that happened to me with an acura integra that was submerged in a flood. After the waters receded, i tried to start it but the engine did not turn over. Initiallly it would crank until engine seized. I thought I had killed engine by water getting in engine. Not the case. It was not water. It was FUEL. TOO much fuel in the cylinders is what seized the engine and not a bent rod or something. Mechanic removed the plugs and manually cranked engine.

The ECU had been submerged in the flood. My mechanic, if you can believe this, took it out, used a blowdrier, and oiled contact points. Reinstalled the ECU. Car started back up. no engine damage.

Good luck and look into that ECU.



PS: Guys, can anybody shed light on this. I think that a properly working ECU will prevent excessive gas from getting in the cylinder. Say, if you have problems with spark plugs or starter and you try cranking and cranking but the car does not start, the ECU, if working properly, will prevent excessive gas from accumulating in the cylinder right? If the ECU is not working properly, it can keep sending gas to the cylinder without cut off. That how it was explained to me. The injectors will not have signal from ecu to cut off fuel.

aaronng

^^ This is not an ECU fault. I am suspecting failed injector.

Oh and you can't just drop the oil pan for a quick look see. To do so, you will need to drop the subframe! You can have the look see, but it won't be quick at all!

poltergeist

With all due respect, it could easily be an ECU problem. Have seen a failed ECU command all of the injectors open which filled the combustion chambers with fuel any time the key was on. Not common, but I've seen it happen.

LukeaTron

The injectors will burn out rapidly in that case. They are not made to hold open like that. Not saying it's impossible, but I think in this case it's more likely the injector failed in some mechanical fashion.

aaronng

Think about what flowrate is fuel sprayed into the cylinder at max duty. Then calculate how long that takes to fill up a cylinder (or part of the volume) which max 600ml and minimum 57ml (10.5:1 compression). If the key was turned and left at "on" before being turned to "ignition" for that time or longer, then you have proven me wrong. Otherwise, I win. I have had my car (not the Accord Euro) go through the same problem. Left overnight, car wouldn't start the next day and starter motor was sluggish. Called roadside assist and they came to check. An injector was dripping fuel into the cylinder overnight and flooded it. After fiddling and starting it up, CEL came on. Went to the dealer to clear the code (O2 sensor reading rich) and problem never happened again. Car is still running today.

suzook

well dealer reports no spark and low compression on one cylinder. I can get a low mileage used engine for $2k. I think my own mechanic will do the labor for $1k. I am trying to get the dealer to fix it, but legaly it is past the 30 day warranty. Saturday morning i am going to talk to the used car manager. I am hoping he would atleast split the bill as good faith. I never expected this from an acura. My cl currently has 140k and still runs lop new. MY previous 3 legends ran like a top. I guess even honda has a lemon here or there.

aaronng

Your TSX is the first I have heard off with fuel filling up the cylinder. Whatever you do, keep your old engine because you can sell that off for a pretty penny.

nbtx

Hardly a lemon - just a random failure. I'm guessing the previous owner had the same problem and nobody was able to diagnose and fix it because it was intermittent.
Buying a used car with no warranty is always a crap shoot.

I suggest you watch this "problem" like a hawk after the engine replacement, and maybe swap cars with the wife until you're sure it's fixed.

curls

One thing... don't go see the dealer you got it from on a Saturday morning without an appointment. The reason is that saturdays are probably one of their busiest days for sales, and he will not be in a good mood if you come in bitching about your car and taking him or his focus away from the bread and butter for the week.

Trying to align the stars in your favour would mean you'd call him and set up a 15-30 minute block at his convenience to talk this over w/ him. I bet that small gesture goes further than you expect.

suzook

What is it worth? Anyone interested?

aaronng

Not many buyers here, but look at the Civic forums. Those guys will swoop down on k24 engines for their transplants.

suzook

Just spoke with the used car manager, he is going to talk to the gm of the dealership.He will be looking into getting a used engine, and swapping it out. I had a civilized conversation with him, stating it would be the right thing to do. He didnt make any promises, but would let me know on monday. I would be very shocked if they agree to this. If so, they have a customer for life. BTW this is a local jeep dealer that has been in buisiness for 92 years. Maybe there still are some good businesses left. I will keep you posted on monday of the outcome. Everybody wish me some good luck.

suzook

well after some hard negotiating, he is willing to cut me a check for 3 grand. i can get a used motor installed for 3200. i am fine with this, but i have another problem. the car is not getting any spark due to the immobilizer not reconizing the keys? i get the flashing green key. I am starting to worry there may be some sort of bigger problem. anyone have any suggestions or ideas?

LukeaTron

Ugh. I hate to say it but if I were in your shoes I'd probably start looking to unload this car.

LuvMyTSX

suzook

how do i unload a nonrunning car? anyone want to make me an offer?

ThirdLane

Carmax

suzook

i will be having the engine replaced along with a used ecu with ign sw and key. could someone provide some service pages for the ecu location and ign sw. i looked at the sw and it seems relatively easy to change. i will be swapping out the ecu and switch, and will have my mechanic do the eng swap. any pics would be greatly appreciated.

OneLoveAmaru

What year is your TSX? I have the service manual for the 04-05... not sure if the location has changed or not after 05.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Why do you need to replace the ECU and ignition switch?