Rocklobster

I've had my check engine light on for months now and got a scanner tool that returned the trouble code that my primary heater element was bad.

I can not get my old o2 primary sensor out just yet, it's seized on - but I have a question above that.

I currently have spliced the wires to my old OEM sensor to connect a "universal" sensor replacement on there to see if it will work with the vechicle. It's wired correctly:

OEM BLACK wires -> Universal WHITE wires for the heater element
OEM BLUE -> Universal BLACK for signal
OEM WHITE -> Universal GRAY for ground

But currently the sensor is not seated since the old sensor is stuck in place - the new one connected is just hanging. Will this continue to give a check engine light if it is not seated in place of the old one, or am I getting a check engine light because the sensor will just not work with the vechicle?

I do not have a voltmeter, etc. so I am kind of just wingin' it for now.

Any advise?

PACman

Is the "universal" sensor a wide band O2 sensor? The more technically inclined members on the forum have recommended staying with the OEM wide band O2 sensor when it comes to replacing it.

LukeaTron

You will still get CELs until you get the old sensor out and the new one in.

Rocklobster

Unfortunately, no it wasn't the wideband sensor. I am absoluetly strapped right now and with registration past due now I am just trying to get the sensor back working so I can pass smog. I did not know if the check engine light was on still on because the sensor wasn't in the cat yet or if the cheaper universal just wasn't going to work at all.

nbtx

O2 sensors are part of the longer emissions warrantee. See your dealer - it should be repaired no charge by Acura. Unless the car is over 80,000 miles or so.

curls

Actually the O2 sensors are NOT part of the 8yr emissions warranty... they are only part of the bumper to bumper (3/4yr) warranty. Most/all other emissions components are part of the 8yr warranty though.

With O2 sensors, I found the Honda/Acura one (same part number!) to be the same price as any wideband replacement one from a non-OEM company. So, I went with the Honda one.

Tsx536

Yeah, you definitely need your replacement to be a wideband O2 sensor. I know the narrowband ones are much cheaper but they work very differently. If I remember correctly, I wideband O2 sensor is much more precise. It has a range all the way from 10.1-17.0 so the engine knows exactly how lean or rich you are running. Whereas a narrow band can not tell you how rich or how lean you are running. It just knows that you are either higher or lower than 14.7 (ideal air/fuel ratio) but not by how much.

This is a very important difference because the wideband O2 sensor is used by your ECU to help maintain a reading of 14.7 while the ECU is in closed loop mode. The ECU is in closed loop mode probably 90% of the time and only goes into open loop mode during WOT runs. If the ECU is not getting a proper reading, then it will not know the proper amount of fuel to add to keep the mixture ideal.

I think you are still getting a CEL because of two reasons. The O2 sensor is not wideband and outputs a different voltage range and because it is not seated inside your header. I wouldn't drive around with it like that. Pull your latest CEL though, and see if it is the same code as you were getting before. Either way, get that O2 sensor replaced. With a bad O2 sensor, your ECU is probably going into limp mode. In limp mode the ECU ignores all readings from the O2 sensor and keeps the A/F ratio richer for safety reasons. You'll notice a big performance drop because the ECU will no longer go into open loop mode. You'll also notice a drop in gas mileage.

Here's an idea though. If the old O2 sensor is absoluately stuck, try it heat it up before you take it off. Also, make sure you're using an O2 sensor tool. If all else fails, you can always leave the old one there, and make a new bung on the header a-pipe for your new one. I actually have two O2 sensors in mine already. The OEM one and one for my PLX wideband O2 gauge.

Rocklobster

Thanks for the technical insight. Great advice.

I was able to finally pull the old one out only by heating up the bung with a propane blow torch, but it finally gave.

The new sensor is in, but you're right about it needing to be wideband.. I don't think I can get away with the narrowband, it finally is throwing a P2252 code.

It's unfortunate, no local part store carries the wideband - it needs to be special ordered from Autozone for $223. That's the Bosch 4-wire wideband.

I've read around here that the price isn't much different from the OEM part from Acura itself, so I may just call Acura tomorrow and see if I can pick one up from there instead.

Rocklobster

The vechicle has 83,000 miles.

Next question, since I'm already going to be replacing the pre-cat sensor, should I also replace the after-cat sensor at the same time while I am at it? Or should I just wait until I hit the 100,000 mile mark or until it fails to replace it?

LukeaTron

Wait until it fails unless you really want to spend another $230.

nbtx

I just read my warrantee booklet and it includes sensors along with cats, throttle body and a bunch of related engine control parts. Do you know of a specific case where a dealer/Acura has denied O2 sensor coverage? BTW, for the 06 MY the emissions warrantee is 7 years, 70,000 miles except California which is 8/80,000.

Tsx536

No problem I went through an O2 sensor awhile back and I learned a lot about them between that and my supercharger setup. I would definitely not replace the O2 sensor in the cat unless you need to. Also, go to OEM Acura parts.com and get the sensor there. $203 and no tax if you're not in AZ. Good luck!

Tsx536

I almost forgot, I had my O2 sensor replaced for free out of goodwill from the dealer at about 60K miles. You're quite a bit over, but see if they'll still cover it under the emissions warranty. It's kind of a long shot, but worth a try.

Rocklobster

I got the OEM o2 sensor from AcuraParts.net. $215 after shipping.

Everything's hooked up correctly, but now there's a new CEL code.

This time it's P1157. What gives?

Anyone know what the problem could be, now?

PACman

^^ P1157 has to do the the air/fuel ratio sensor. This is from Honda-Tech.com

P1157 Air/Fuel Ratio (A/F) Sensor (Sensor 1) AFS Line High Voltage
P1157 Air/Fuel Ratio (A/F) Sensor (Sensor 1) Circuit High Voltage
P1157 Air/Fuel Ratio (A/F) Sensor (Sensor 1) Range/Performance Problem

Now that you have a new O2 sensor, can you clear the CEL, and see if it comes back?

Rocklobster

Yup, I've cleared the code with the OBDII scanner. Still comes back... I'm not sure what to make of this.

First the universal sensor was coming up with a P2252 for a low voltage and now the OEM sensor is coming up with a P1157 for a possible high voltage?

PACman

How is your car running now? Any sensation like it's struggling when you accelerate?
MPG will take a dive with a bad O2 sensor.

Rocklobster

Don't know, it's still on jackstands this afternoon. My main goal was to get rid of the CEL's to get the car smogged since the registration is now overdue. When I had the universal o2 sensor in for a few days, the car hesitated a lot less than it did with the old faulty o2 sensor.

I haven't tried driving it with the new OEM sensor yet, I'm more concerned about getting rid of the CEL for now.

The verbal message being displayed after the P1157 code on the ODBII scanner is Manufacturer Controlled Air / Fuel Metering.

What's going on?

PACman

May want to take it out for a spin to see if that would clear it up. Not sure what else to try. Some of the other forum members may want to chime in on this.

LukeaTron

I'd reset the ECU by unhooking the battery for half an hour. You'll want to drive it for a bit before you get it tested so the ECU has enough time to get out of its "safe" mode and tune itself.

It sounds like using that other sensor may have confused the ECU.

Rocklobster

That does sound logical about the other sensor confusing the ECU.

I've got the battery disconnected for a while now, I'll keep it off for a little while longer and then maybe drive it a little bit to see if that clears anything up, too.

LukeaTron

Let us know how it turns out.

Rocklobster

The CEL is not going away, the code remains and comes back within a few seconds of starting the vehicle when erased.

I talked to a service rep from a local Acura dealer here and he says the P1157 is pertaining to the sensor INSIDE of the manifold (not the primary o2 sensor).

I asked him why P1157 did not originally trigger to begin only when I replaced the primary o2 sensor and he just rambled about needing to have the vechicle inspected so they could see exactly what was going on with the upstream and downstream.

I guess I'm kind of stuck now other than having to suck it up and take it into the dealer.

Tsx536

Wow...sorry to hear that. So when you put in the new harness. You just unplugged the sensor , correct? The new sensor comes with a wire harness and all, so you didn't splice the new sensor into your wiring, did you?

I would have thought that pulling the battery would be good enough. Hmmm...this is a long shot, but try pulling the harnesses out of the ECU for a few minutes. Pulling the battery should have accomplished the same thing, but I don't really have any other ideas.

And don't listen to the dealer. P1157 looks to be a problem with the O2 sensor in the cat. http://www.brockwayengineering.com/codes.html

Try to drive for awhile and see if this happens to go away. Maybe the ECU is trying to match the readings between the Primary and secondary o2 sensors. Drive around, but don't go Wide open throttle. Just keeps the revs low and be easy on the eingine. This may or may not be risky depending on what the problem is, so be cautious. You still have that scantool? Will it tell you the A/F ratio reported by the ECU?

LukeaTron

Are they the same part number? You could try swapping them and seeing what happens.

This is a somewhat common problem. The secondary sensor is used make sure the reading from the primary makes sense (secondary should always see a lower value than the primary since it's in the cat). Sometimes the secondary when it's starting to fail will see a higher value than the primary but still within the "good" range of output for itself. The ECU then reports the primary is failing because it thinks it's reading too low.

If they're the same part number, you might be able to just plug the old primary into the secondary bung. Unless you mangled it in the process of getting it out of course.

Tsx536

How did you originally identify that it was the primary O2 sensor that was messed up?
What DTC or CEL code did you throw the first time before you even tried to splice in the universal sensor?

Rocklobster

First it was P0135 only for the original o2 sensor, then replaced with a universal sensor.. then got P2252 only, then replaced with the OEM sensor and now get a P1157 only.

The primary and secondary o2 sensors are different part numbers.

I've done some light driving around to see if it would clear, then erased the code manually again only to have it come back within seconds.

I used the harness that came with the new o2 sensor, there's no way I would splice that if I didn't need to. Not for $215 bucks.

The service advisor I first spoke with told me that P1157 had to do with the sensor "inside of the manifold" (isn't that the MAP sensor?) and not the primary o2 directly - he said it was a high voltage error that's caused inside of the manifold. I asked if this was the secondary o2 sensor he was referring to and he said no.

Now I just spoke with another service tech at another dealer and he said that it indeed had to do with the primary sensor. He couldn't narrow it down (of course) as to what would cause it, he just asked simple questions about the fuel I use and mentioned that even a dirty air filter could cause the code.

It's a shame this can't be pinpointed without having a thorough diagnosis done on it.

LukeaTron

I totally misunderstood what you were saying before. The primary sensor is the one in question. The TSX uses an exhaust header instead of a manifold (individual pipes that combine down to one vs 4 pipes that go into a collector with one pipe coming out). It wasn't the best choice of words, but he was indeed referring to the primary O2 sensor.

Check your fuses. Hopefully nothing got screwed up (fried) by using the universal sensor. Beyond that, I hate to say it but it's probably dealer time.

Tsx536

^^ I think it's the O2 sensor in the cat. The CEL system is designed to pinpoint what the exact problem is. It throwing a code of P1157 is definitely saying that it's a problem with the sensor inside the cat. Google P1157 DTC and do some searching. There's a post on a Honda element forum where someone mentions it may take up to 100 miles for the DTC to clear. I'm not sure how accurate this info is, but it's worth a try.

How many miles have you driven? Does your scan tool read A/F ratio? I would first make sure that the Primary sensor that you just replaced is functioning correctly. Your car should give a reading of close to 14.7 about 90% of the time. Also, make sure that the primary O2 sensor harness is seating all the way in. It's kind of a weird connector. This could also be causing the CEL because the Primary O2 sensor and the Secondary O2 sensor readings are not the same.

Check this thread:
http://www.elementownersclub.com/for...t=39143&page=2

Rocklobster

Unfortunately it's a pretty basic scanner tool, using from the loaner-tool program at AutoZone.

I spoke with yet another service tech who put in some extra time to try and find out what may be cause it and he could only conclude that it had to do with either the PCM or the primary sensor wiring itself. He mentioned it may need a software update as there is a service bulletin for the TL's in regard to this matter but there was no way of knowing unless I brought it in and they ran a diagnosis on it. Kind of discouraging to think that it would need a software update to replace a part that was already there to begin with.

So I guess I'm finished trying to figure it out myself. The diagnosis starts at $120 and then just goes upwards from there depending on if the PCM needs replacement or not.

I guess I can't really complain here, I did pick up the car in excellent condition for $13,200 in late 2006. This is the first problem I've had with it.

Tsx536

^^ Yeah, I was worried about the wiring and the ECU. That's why I linked to that element forum. It shows how to test your ECU and the A/F ratio signal. This was for an element, so you need to find similar directions for the TSX. I understand if some of those tests were over your head though. At this point, if it's too over your head, just bring it to the dealer.

I heard of people shorting out the signal going into the ECU before. This was happenning with the RSX and people going to K-Pro, etc. This is one of the main reasons everyone has recommended just going with the factory O2 sensor.

Good luck though.

nbtx

The ECM uses the secondary O2 sensor to check on the integrity of the cat, so you may
very well have to drive the car for the ECM to adapt to the readings from the new primary O2 sensor. But, I'll bet the dealer has a mechanism to reset the ECM stored parameters - something you can't do with a simple code reader - so that a CEL does not set when you drive out the dealer's lot.

Rocklobster

Just giving an update to this story for those who followed.

The car is at the dealer, they ran tests on it and indeed it is the sensor before the cat. They don't actually call this an o2 sensor though.. they consider this the "air/fuel ratio" sensor. This is what considered the primary sensor. This is a completely different part number than the OEM part I purchased and replaced with.

I read online somewhere that the part number for the primary sensor was "36532-RAD-L11". This was the incorrect. That part number is actually the "secondary" sensor which plugs into the cat.

The sensor before the cat that I needed is part 36531-RBB-003, which is the "air/fuel ratio sensor" ("primary"o2 sensor).

I read somewhere that these sensors are interchangeable, but they must not be because it shouldn't be giving a P1157 code if they were?

So what I will need to do is have them to pull the new OEM sensor I bought that's currently plugged in before the cat and switch that to pluggin into the cat as the secondary o2 sensor and then buy the "air/fuel ratio" sensor from them and have them install that one before the cat.

PACman

^^Damn, hopefully the right sensor will fix it up. For the years I've been on this board, I hear primary O2 sensor thrown around so often, whether it's the air/fuel ratio sensor or the O2 sensor on the cat is anyones guess; but most of the time it's the air/fuel ratio sensor that bugs out. The thing is it's pricey if it were gotten wrong.

Rocklobster

Oh yea...sucks that I paid $200+ for a part I didn't need (secondary o2 sensor).

The air/fuel ratio sensor is $340+ at this dealer... not including the labor.

I would buy it online for cheaper but I have such a headache from this now I just want it fixed so I can get it re-registered.

PACman

$340? Holy seeeeeet! Just in case you change your mind about changing the sensor yourself.

019 36531-RBB-003 SENSOR, AIR FUEL RATIO 1 2004 TSX 213.33

http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/...All&vinsrch=no

LukeaTron

They're both O2 sensors. I think one of them has a heater coil in it to bring it up to operating temperature more quickly. I would guess this is the "Air/Fuel Ratio Sensor" because of the higher price.

Emissions system problems are notoriously difficult to diagnose, don't beat yourself up to much. The dealer will do plenty of that for you.

Tsx536

Actually, just remove the O2 sensor you bought and try to sell it. Or keep it for a rainy day. Your secondary sensor is probably fine. Buy a new Primary O2 sensor 36531-RBB-003 and plug it in. Just do it yourself. Don't let the dealer get anymore money from you. They are probably already charging you for diagnostics.

curls

Definitely purchase the sensor yourself (online or at Honda, it's the same part and way cheaper than $340!). Changing it is simple.

Rocklobster

I sure should have, but I stupidly didn’t. What a mistake.... $537.77.

Get this...

The dealer charged me an extra half hour worth of labor ($78.75) to supposedly swap out the incorrect OEM part I purchased from the front (pre cat) and move it to the back (cat) to replace the older secondary sensor.

I jacked up the vehicle as soon as I got it home to make sure my secondary sensor was installed. Nope, it’s an old rusted sensor that’s still in there.

They took the part that I bought off but kept it, in addition charged me for the labor of a swap out as written on the invoice.

I’m waiting to speak with their service supervisor.

This is Findlay Acura in Henderson, Nevada.