curls

Calling Sauceman, calling Sauceman... come in Sauceman! (I know you know my story and have had same/similar experiences w/ your car)


I got a MIL (check engine light) today after leaving the gym. Everything was perfectly fine driving-wise but the light stayed on. I turned the car off and back on and it remained lit up.

I'm assuming it's the cat and/or the O2 sensor, since having an oil-burning engine like mine prior to this new shortblock, probably fouled both the catalytic and the O2 sensor(s).

Any idea if the warranty on the O2 sensor is 8yrs / 130,000km, or is that JUST the catalytic and check-engine-light? I believe I read that the O2 was only covered under the 5/100,000 warranty, which I am 1,700km over in mileage (although a VERY well-documented history of engine problems with this car prior to the new short block being installed).

I am bringing it in to the dealer tomorrow morning even though I'm past the 5/100,000 warranty on non-emissions components. Anyone know if the check-engine-light codes are stored for any length of time, or is it one of those "if the light isn't on when its in the shop, we can't check the codes" things?

Advice/opinions?

jlukja

gas cap on tight?

curls

Yeah I always click it 4-5 times, and also, the light didn't come on until I was at 1/4 tank left (I always fill it up, so I assume this light would have come on almost as soon as I filled it up, if the gas cap was the problem).

Tsx536

Yeah, you need to leave the code if you want the dealer to look it up. Let me warn you that the dealer will charge you to pull the code though. If I were you, then I would pull the code ahead of time, but just leave it on for the dealer to see. That way, if they try to charge you, say you already know the code, but didn't want to clear it in case they needed to see it.

Also, I recently had my primary O2 sensor replaced under warranty when I was at 57K miles. It was a friend of a friend, so I'm sure that helped, but it's still a judgement call by the service advisor and/or their manager.

Anyway, if you pull your code, post it up here, and I can try to help you out. I was getting two codes on mine though. P0135 - Bank 1 Sensor 1, sensor heater malfunction (something like that) Basically, the O2 sensor wasn't getting heated up properly. I also saw a P1157 Bank 1 Sensor 1, high voltage detected.

Anyway, I hope that helps. Good luck!

curls

Is there a way to pull the code without an ODBII scan tool? I recall on Intgras I think you could jump pins and the indicator would flash the code.... ????

The "Check Engine Light" says its covered, literally, under 8-year, 130,000km warranty, which I'm still covered under.

Tsx536

Well, if autozone is close to you, then I would just go and use the loaner tool program. Basically, they charge you for the scanner up front and then credit it back once you return it. You might just wanna get it through the loaner tool program, and then bring it to the dealer with you if they try to pull anything and charge you to pull the code. Although I do recall that some dealerships will waive the fee to pull the code if you get your repairs done through them.

Edit: So you're saying you think pulling the code is covered under your warranty?

And I heard of some ghetto ways to retrieve the code. They probably work, but I don't know of anyone here that has tried it. Good luck.

curls

back in a bit - getting the code pulled at a friends' house. What a nice christmas gift his code reader made (from his dad, lol).

I'll report the code back here in a few hours.

curls

I'm back.

The code was P2A00 (and also P2A00 "pending"). According to my Helm's manual, it's "Air Fuel Ratio (A/F) Sensor (Sensor 1) Range/Performance Problem".

So, Primary O2 sensor.

HOWEVER, while me and my buddy were drinking a coffee and catching up on life, my battery died (door open, HID's on for light, and stereo on). So, I had to push-start it as I was parked on a hill anyhow. Easy enough. The problem is, the MIL is now OFF. I guess a mostly-dead battery will not allow the ECU to store the code? That SUCKS, because the entire trip home did not reproduce the MIL, and now unless the old DTC (diagnostic trouble code) is stored but the MIL isn't on, the dealership won't have anything they can do -- no code = no warranty service.

Any ideas? Will the code still be held but the MIL not on, if for example, the trouble symptoms were there at one point but cleared up themselves (thus the O2 sensor is currently "ok")?

I'd hate to waste a trip to the dealership for nothing, as well as waste money on a scan if they find nothing. Also, it means I have to catch the shuttle bus to work, and bum a ride back to the dealership later in the day. Rather not do that if its all for not.

curls

Shitty... just realized the O2 sensor is only under a 3yr/60,000km warranty. Long since expired.

I guess I get to plead my case to the dealer tomorrow. Booooooooourns.

Tsx536

Yeah, the CEL will usually clear if you disconnect the battery. The dealer won't do anything without one. If it's a major problem, it will come back soon though. What kind of scan tool did your friend have? Was it able to read the a/f ratio by chance? That can help tell you if the sensor is messed up.

My local dealer said the O2 sensor had the standard 50K warranty. How many miles do you have?

curls

101,500KM, whereas the standard warranty on the O2 sensor, according to the warranty manual, is 3yr/60,000km. Powertrain major components is 5yr/100,000km, and emissions (catalytic, CEL/MIL), is 8yr/130,000km.

I'll bring it in and see what they say. I'm hoping the code is stored in the ECU, as in the Helm's it says disconnecting the battery will NOT clear codes... so... maybe roll-starting the car has something to do w/ it not throwing the CEL anymore. We'll see what they say.

curls

OK, well they wanted $51 just to tell me the code (that I already knew). So, screw that. I need a new O2 sensor -- anyone have opinions on whether to go with OEM Acura, or can I go with a quality aftermarket replacement? Acura wants $245.00 CDN + taxes for theirs.

gsrthomas

Always go OEM on parts like these. With replacement engine parts I ALWATS go OEM. No one makes it better then a Japanese Honda part.

Find someone who works at a dealership. I have an account at my local dealership which gives me 20% and no tax.

curls

Cool. BTW, the OEM O2 sensors are made by NGK (NTK) and/or Denso... but even then, the OE-fit NGK replacement (part #24668) is $300+ from my local parts guy and that's his cost.

I have a guy who works at a Honda dealer that gives me garage pricing on parts, so $206.59 is what this is going to cost me, plus tax. Better than paying the dealership an arm and a leg and even a left testicle for it. Same part, too, as my Honda guy is ordering it from the Acura parts bins.

Tsx536

^^ I did some pricing on one before, and that's a good price. Cheapest I saw was like $207 plus shipping. Let me know if you need any info on removal of the sensor. It's pretty easy though. You can disconnect the clip for it from the engine bay. Just look for the blue wire that runs up close to the driver side, to the rear of the engine block. It runs to the right of the header (to the right if you're looking at the car from the license plate frame). It also helps if you have an O2 sensor removal tool. Good luck.

curls

That's $206.xx CDN +tax ($29). Not bad, eh? (relatively speaking).

I'll be getting it installed at a buddy's house, as he has the ODBII scantool to clear the code and check for new ones, etc... and he also has the O2 socket (from my last car requiring an O2 sensor - 1991 Teg - and it being in a friggin impossible place to get at w/ standard tools!).

Thanks everyone. I'll let you guys know if this actually gets rid of the code for good.

Tsx536

^^ That's a great price. My price was in US Dollars. Yeah keep us updated. It's an pretty easy install. I could probably get it done in about 15 minutes. The harness in the engine bay is a little tricky to get off. Just make sure the tab is pushed all the way down, and it should slide off with a little effort.

curls

Actually, is this something I can do without the O2 socket? Someone somewhere mentioned a 22mm wrench ??

If so, it saves me a 40 minute each-way drive to get it done at a friends' house, and all I'd have to do is get the code cleared at a closer friends' house (5 minutes).

Tsx536

Yeah, you can just use a wrench. I don't know the size off the top of my head. The tool just makes it a little easy to get off, and also prevents it from getting damaged. In your case, you don't care if the old one gets damaged though.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

A 7/8" wrench will do the trick.

visuelz

Will it void the warrenty if I have a cold air intake installed?

curls

Anyone know if anti-seize is recommended for use on the O2 sensor threads prior to installation? I have the spark-plug anti-seize "crayon" that works well for plugs... would this work if its a recommended procedure?

Tsx536

Yeah, I usually put it on. Just be careful not to get any of it close to the sensor. Don't put too much, less is better in this situation.

sauceman

Eric, sorry man for not popping in earlier when you needed help. I just saw the thread.

Yeah, Honda OEM O2 sensors appear to be weak somewhat, but moving out of OEM would just make it worst and going for a Bosch universal would be a waste of money.

The oil burning problems however may not even be the cause for a faulty sensor. I believe I've had one go before my warranty had expired and I didn't start having oil consumption problems before 140,000km. And I haven't had problems with an O2 sensor for the last 2 years now, burning gallons of oil and cramming the exhaust with soot..

BTW, the car still runs good, as long as it gets it's daily 30 seconds of redline.

curls

Nah, next time I need your help directly, I could always PM you.

Anyhow, I have a Honda/Acura OEM one on order from a local parts counter guy at Hunt Club Honda (discount!). Should be in tomorrow at 1pm. Might take the afternoon off to get it and install it, weather permitting. (gotta love gov't jobs!).

I was told the phosphorous from burning oil can cause the O2 sensor to go, but more likely then not its just worn out. Oh well.

curls

I installed the new O2 sensor today. Really easy, actually (took me longer to jack the car up and put it on jackstands, than it did to change the sensor).

Now, according to the Helm's, it says to reset the ECU, then re-do the idle learn procedure. However, it says under the Idle Learn Procedure that you do NOT have to perform it when you simply clear an ECU code.

My question: Do I simply clear the code w/ an ODBII scantool, or, should I go to Acura and get it reset and the idle-learn procedure performed?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Just clear the code with the scan tool and call it good.

curls

Thats what I was leaning towards...

Thanks JTso.

Tsx536

As long as you don't get the CEL again, and your car idles smoothly, I think you're golden.

curls

Done and done. No more DTC / CEL.

Thanks guys.

However, another problem... I think the internals (honeycomb) of my catalytic converter, are shot. I have been noticing a noise when just starting from a dead stop... resonant-type noise resembling a heat shield rattle. While I was under the car today, I tapped around and the heat shields are all 100% fine. However, the most noise was being caused by shaking/tapping the catalytic converter itself.

Argh! Hopefully Acura Canada will warranty this (still under their 8/130,000 emissions warranty). I wonder if they'll warranty it if it is NOT throwing a CEL/DTC indicating its failed?

Tsx536

^^ I had this same rattle on the OEM cat. There are 4 screws that hold the heatshield on. Those screws connect to brackets that are welded to the cat itself. I found out that one of my brackets had come off from the cat and was rattling like crazy. I ended up removing that 1 bracket completely and the rattle has been gone since. There are still 3 other brackets to support the heatshield on the cat, so I think it's fine. You can get teh bracket welded back on if you really want to though.

If that's not your problem, the cat is shot, and the dealer won't replace it under warranty I would just put a WTB thread in the black market section. Someone who's switched to the Random Tech cat would probably be willing to sell you their OEM one.

curls

Hrmm... Never noticed those brackets. Are they on the top heatshield, or do they hold the bottom heatshield to the cat? Will I likely have to remove the bottom heatshield to see them?

Might have to get under the car again tomorrow, weather permitting.

Tsx536

They are in between the top and bottom parts of the heatshield. They hold each corner of the heatshield to the cat.

This may or may not be your problem, but it's worth a look. Your theory about the inside of the cat being messed up could be true. There's no way to figure that out unless you pull the cat though. My rattle would get really loud even at idle with the A/C on full blast and also at around 2600-3000 RPMs.

curls

So can I get at the cat and separate the heatshields without breaking the welds?

Tsx536

^^ Yep. In my case, the weld holding the bracket onto the cat was broken though. I ended up removing the bracket because it was moving freely and banging against the cat. My heatshield is now only held on by 3 brackets, but it's still secure. When you take off the bolt on the heatshield, it shouldn't break the bracket off of the cat though, mine was already broken, and that's why I took it off.

curls

UPDATE

Weather was nice enough this morning so I went under the car. Turns out it IS the heat shields for the cat that are rattling. I never noticed this yesterday but the heatshields are both "2-ply" (like toilet paper), and the layers have separated because of rusting along all of the edges. That caused a lot of noise at the resonant frequencies of the heatshield pieces.

So, I took them off (2 of the 4 bolts were no problem, the other 2 are still seized to the car but I literally tore the heatshields off!).

Is there any harm in running without either heatshield? There is still a general "exhaust heatshield" that runs front to back and does go above the catalytic converter... I tore off the heat shields specific to the catalytic converter itself.

Will Acura warranty the catalytic at a later date if the heat shields are missing? And, will I be polluting more if the cat isn't shielded (won't get as hot, therefore won't work as efficiently, and may even damage the cat and/or the secondary O2 sensor??)

Thanks

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Not sure about the dealer warranty on the cat but the cat without the heatshield won't affect emissions. However, it will make the center console a little warmer from the heat.

Tsx536

It won't effect emissions, but you might notice more heat as Johnny mentioned. The OEM cat gets very hot. You might be able to find an OEM cat for cheap on the forum if it becomes a problem later, and the dealer won't cover it.