Do pulleys really damage your engine?
02-27-2011, 12:06 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Do pulleys really damage your engine?
well, do they?
in the never ending internet battle of whether lightweight crank pulleys destroy engines, there seems to be 2 very clear sides to the battle.
basically, one side clearly states the the lightweight aluminum crank pulleys destroy engines due to a lack of a harmonic/vibration/ultrasonic/whateveritscalled rubber ring dampers.
the other side says people's cars have been running for xx,xxx miles problem free and that honda engines are internally balanced and don't need no damn rubber ring thingy.
i've seen threads on k20.org and civic forums and others with members taking on projects to tear down their motors as conclusive proof either way after x miles of daily driving and/or abuse... but i've yet to find a thread that really does that.
so... since i've installed unorthodox racing's full pulley set, my car has had a tiny bit of vibration at idle. i've been told this is normal.
but i'm going to take it just one step further. i'm going to have oil analysis done every ~5,000 miles. i've sent in my first sample to blackstone labs and will post results in this thread. i realize updates will only happen ~3 months or so... but for my sanity, short of tearing down the motor, getting oil analysis was the best way to know what the heck is going on inside.
a couple of caveats - i do not have a "base" sample oil analysis pre-pulley install to compare successive ones with. the first oil analysis will have about ~1,300 miles with pulleys. every one afterward will obviously have ~5,000 on it. i currently use catrol syntec 5w-30.
in the never ending internet battle of whether lightweight crank pulleys destroy engines, there seems to be 2 very clear sides to the battle.
basically, one side clearly states the the lightweight aluminum crank pulleys destroy engines due to a lack of a harmonic/vibration/ultrasonic/whateveritscalled rubber ring dampers.
the other side says people's cars have been running for xx,xxx miles problem free and that honda engines are internally balanced and don't need no damn rubber ring thingy.
i've seen threads on k20.org and civic forums and others with members taking on projects to tear down their motors as conclusive proof either way after x miles of daily driving and/or abuse... but i've yet to find a thread that really does that.
so... since i've installed unorthodox racing's full pulley set, my car has had a tiny bit of vibration at idle. i've been told this is normal.
but i'm going to take it just one step further. i'm going to have oil analysis done every ~5,000 miles. i've sent in my first sample to blackstone labs and will post results in this thread. i realize updates will only happen ~3 months or so... but for my sanity, short of tearing down the motor, getting oil analysis was the best way to know what the heck is going on inside.
a couple of caveats - i do not have a "base" sample oil analysis pre-pulley install to compare successive ones with. the first oil analysis will have about ~1,300 miles with pulleys. every one afterward will obviously have ~5,000 on it. i currently use catrol syntec 5w-30.
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buddylie (07-06-2011)
02-27-2011, 12:07 AM
#2
Racer
Thread Starter
i got my report from blackstone labs on thursday... here is what it said:
while this part has me a little concerned, i'll need at least 2-3 more reports saying the same thing to convince me to switch back to oem pulleys and run several oil analysis tests as a comparison... like i said in my initial post, i don't have a baseline with oem pulleys so i'll have to monitor the metal wear with the pulleys on first i guess... given how i only had the pulleys on toward the last ~1,200 miles of a ~5,000 mile oil change interval, let's see what oil analysis says after a full ~5,000 with the pulleys on.
interestingly, the vibration at idle got noticeably better with new oil... even my friend with a is300 noticed the difference right away. could this be the possible bearing wear the analysis shows? time will tell i guess.
if anyone wants to see the pdf, pm me. i have to redact the pdf and rescan it since it has my personal contact info...
Lead was the only wear metal on the high side in this sample from the 2.4L in your Acura. Lead typically shows bearing wear, so this level did get our attention but we're not ready to call it a problem just yet. Universal averages show typical wear levels for this type of engine after about 6,600 miles on the oil. The other metals look really good. No harmful fuel or coolant was found in the oil, and the viscosity was normal for 5W/30. Low insolubles and silicon show good oil and air filtration. Check back in another 5,000 miles or so to monitor lead.
interestingly, the vibration at idle got noticeably better with new oil... even my friend with a is300 noticed the difference right away. could this be the possible bearing wear the analysis shows? time will tell i guess.
if anyone wants to see the pdf, pm me. i have to redact the pdf and rescan it since it has my personal contact info...
02-28-2011, 09:17 AM
#3
El Cunado
Your signature says you have the UR pulley set. Is it the OEM size or is it the under-drive set?
This is an interesting angle on the effects of lightweight pulleys. From a physics standpoint, it would make sense to think everything would be okay if the pulleys are the same size as OEM. I'll subscribe to this and would like to see any more research from you as I've become interested in at least replacing the crank pulley though not under-driving anything.
Thanks for taking initiative into checking on this!
This is an interesting angle on the effects of lightweight pulleys. From a physics standpoint, it would make sense to think everything would be okay if the pulleys are the same size as OEM. I'll subscribe to this and would like to see any more research from you as I've become interested in at least replacing the crank pulley though not under-driving anything.
Thanks for taking initiative into checking on this!
03-02-2011, 11:33 AM
#4
Someone stole "My Garage"
Interesting approach, but a lack of any sample from pre-pulleys will basically make every analysis and conclusion anecdotal, at best. IE: Was the cause of the bearing wear present before the pulleys were installed? Nobody will know at this point and we can't go back in time to check.
I'm not trying to defend the UR pulleys (I run 'em and love 'em), nor am I downplaying the importance of this hypothesis, but IMO, without a virgin 'pre-pulleys' sample, there's no way you or Blackstone would be able to attribute any engine wear to the installation and use of the pulleys.
I'm not trying to defend the UR pulleys (I run 'em and love 'em), nor am I downplaying the importance of this hypothesis, but IMO, without a virgin 'pre-pulleys' sample, there's no way you or Blackstone would be able to attribute any engine wear to the installation and use of the pulleys.
03-02-2011, 11:41 AM
#5
Instructor
I was looking at getting either the NST or UR crank pulley in the next few weeks along with the reflash. i heard mixed things about this too, I sent an email to the place that would be doing the installation to see if they heard anything about pulleys damaging, I'll post the response once I get one.
03-03-2011, 12:36 AM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
03-03-2011, 12:49 AM
#7
Racer
Thread Starter
Interesting approach, but a lack of any sample from pre-pulleys will basically make every analysis and conclusion anecdotal, at best. IE: Was the cause of the bearing wear present before the pulleys were installed? Nobody will know at this point and we can't go back in time to check.
I'm not trying to defend the UR pulleys (I run 'em and love 'em), nor am I downplaying the importance of this hypothesis, but IMO, without a virgin 'pre-pulleys' sample, there's no way you or Blackstone would be able to attribute any engine wear to the installation and use of the pulleys.
I'm not trying to defend the UR pulleys (I run 'em and love 'em), nor am I downplaying the importance of this hypothesis, but IMO, without a virgin 'pre-pulleys' sample, there's no way you or Blackstone would be able to attribute any engine wear to the installation and use of the pulleys.
admittedly, you are absolutely correct. having said that, i still think it would be significant to me and my particular engine if after several ~5000 mile oil change analysis continues to show abnormal lead wear. it could purely be isolated to my engine and how it came from the factory. there was another poster on the "other board" that posted his blackstone report with pulleys and his show completely normal wear...
i guess at the end of the day, my reports won't conclusively prove anything. at best, it will be isolated to my motor's particular build.
however, if more posters were to get something like this done and we start to have a good sampling of "good" reports over xx,xxx miles across several unique motors, then i'd say while its non-scientific in its accuracy, there is data that can help "prove" lightweight/underdrive pulleys are relatively safe, especially in our k24a2 application. in my mind, this would at the very least be heaps better than hearsay that is mindlessly repeated ad nauseum.
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03-03-2011, 12:51 AM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
I was looking at getting either the NST or UR crank pulley in the next few weeks along with the reflash. i heard mixed things about this too, I sent an email to the place that would be doing the installation to see if they heard anything about pulleys damaging, I'll post the response once I get one.
what they "heard" isn't the same as them having torn down a k24a2 used for xx,xxx miles without pulleys, rebuilding said engine, run it with xx,xxx miles with pulleys, tear it down and prove any kind of adverse affects if any that can be attributed to the pulleys...
03-03-2011, 12:25 PM
#9
El Cunado
I came across this from a thread about the UR Pulleys. It may or may not add to your investigation.
That is what you might want to call an elastomer. It is there to reduce NVH (Noise, Vibration, Harshness). Instead of re-writing this entire argument I will just post UR's response:
4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.
4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.
The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that makes them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, the Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.
The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as stroke length, displacement, inline, V configurations, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.
Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand the crank pulleys better.
03-03-2011, 03:41 PM
#10
Instructor
and that's what i fundamentally had a problem with...
what they "heard" isn't the same as them having torn down a k24a2 used for xx,xxx miles without pulleys, rebuilding said engine, run it with xx,xxx miles with pulleys, tear it down and prove any kind of adverse affects if any that can be attributed to the pulleys...
what they "heard" isn't the same as them having torn down a k24a2 used for xx,xxx miles without pulleys, rebuilding said engine, run it with xx,xxx miles with pulleys, tear it down and prove any kind of adverse affects if any that can be attributed to the pulleys...
03-03-2011, 04:09 PM
#11
Let me help you!
I wasn't asking for their opinion, I was asking them if they have had any customers come back in with damaged engines after installing pulleys. Obviously its not a perfect answer, but it would make me feel more comfortable than being misinformed from peoples opinions...
You should be more comfortable asking for people's opinions on a forum, especially one frequented by car enthusiasts. You will get more detailed responses from other people who have the relevant experience that you desire. You can probably find 50+ people here from all over the world with all sorts of aftermarket pulleys. Your local shop probably only does one once in a while (with most being stock pulleys), and their interaction with the vehicle ends when the vehicle is picked up.
Also, if I were a shop owner and I had a customer e-mail me about potential issues on a future install job, I would probably say that there haven't been any issues so that the customer will come and pay me for a job (rather than have my mechanics sitting idly by). If it messes up his engine, I'll just say I have never seen it happen before, and I'll ask him when he wants to bring the vehicle back again so he can pay me to fix the problems (lol).
03-03-2011, 04:37 PM
#12
Instructor
I almost always rely on acurazine for answers, and get an accurate factual answer. Only time I've had issues is when asking about pulleys. Unfortunately the only answers I got previously were opinions only, so I figured why not ask someone who installs them..(Seemed pretty logical to me). The place I asked was the one installing my reflash, I basically relayed the question above to them. Doesn't make them 100% trust worthy, but anything that can build my knowledge about this topic is helpful to me. On here it seems people dislike NST for some reason but haven't found any reason why.
03-04-2011, 09:47 AM
#13
Someone stole "My Garage"
The way I see it is this: There have been no documented failures attributable (proven) to pulleys. However, there have been hundreds or thousands of UR pulley sets sold to Honda/Acura owners. 0/1000 is a 'perfect record' and should be seen as such until someone actually proves that all 1000 of these cars are irreversably damaged.
Last edited by curls; 03-04-2011 at 09:53 AM.
03-04-2011, 10:02 AM
#14
It also depends on the damage. If were talking gradual failure or catastrophic failure at some really high mileage, like 150,000 or 200,000, I don't think many people care at that point.
I haven't heard of any catastrophic failures....even if they were to take apart an engine at 200,000 miles and they find wear, then I wouldn't worry about that.
I haven't heard of any catastrophic failures....even if they were to take apart an engine at 200,000 miles and they find wear, then I wouldn't worry about that.
03-04-2011, 10:18 AM
#15
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It also depends on the damage. If were talking gradual failure or catastrophic failure at some really high mileage, like 150,000 or 200,000, I don't think many people care at that point.
I haven't heard of any catastrophic failures....even if they were to take apart an engine at 200,000 miles and they find wear, then I wouldn't worry about that.
I haven't heard of any catastrophic failures....even if they were to take apart an engine at 200,000 miles and they find wear, then I wouldn't worry about that.
03-04-2011, 11:06 AM
#16
Advanced
There are now so many TSX's & other Honda K-engines running around with aftermarket aluminum crank pulleys for years with no issues that there is nothing to worry about at all.
There is simply no evidence nor reports of failures.
For my wife's car, I went with a steel OEM RSX-S crank pulley last year. It's slightly lighter, slightly underdriven but still has a damper incorporated into it.
If I had to do it again, I would likely go to an aluminum underdriven crank pulley & not worry about it.
Here is some TSX crank pulley info & comparison I gathered last year:
Stock TSX steel crank damper dia------ 6.125", 4.6 lbs.
Stock K20A2/PRB steel crank damper----5.80", ___ lbs.
Stock K20Z1/PRC steel crank damper----5.40", 4.2 lbs. US$110. Actual US$160 (2005-06 RSX-S)
Fluiddamper steel crank damper-------- 5.875", 6.5 lbs, US$350.
ATI street aluminum crank damper----- 5.500", 3.6 lbs, US$330.
Alutec alum crank pulley----- 5.8", __ lbs, US$250.
UR alum crank pulley-------- 5.125", 0.75 lbs, US$___, (US$350 for the kit.)
NST alum crank pulley------- 5.2", 0.81 lbs, US$125.
T1R alum crank pulley--------5.8", 1.43 lbs, US$180.
There is simply no evidence nor reports of failures.
For my wife's car, I went with a steel OEM RSX-S crank pulley last year. It's slightly lighter, slightly underdriven but still has a damper incorporated into it.
If I had to do it again, I would likely go to an aluminum underdriven crank pulley & not worry about it.
Here is some TSX crank pulley info & comparison I gathered last year:
Stock TSX steel crank damper dia------ 6.125", 4.6 lbs.
Stock K20A2/PRB steel crank damper----5.80", ___ lbs.
Stock K20Z1/PRC steel crank damper----5.40", 4.2 lbs. US$110. Actual US$160 (2005-06 RSX-S)
Fluiddamper steel crank damper-------- 5.875", 6.5 lbs, US$350.
ATI street aluminum crank damper----- 5.500", 3.6 lbs, US$330.
Alutec alum crank pulley----- 5.8", __ lbs, US$250.
UR alum crank pulley-------- 5.125", 0.75 lbs, US$___, (US$350 for the kit.)
NST alum crank pulley------- 5.2", 0.81 lbs, US$125.
T1R alum crank pulley--------5.8", 1.43 lbs, US$180.
03-04-2011, 02:23 PM
#17
03-04-2011, 03:15 PM
#18
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It also depends on the damage. If were talking gradual failure or catastrophic failure at some really high mileage, like 150,000 or 200,000, I don't think many people care at that point.
I haven't heard of any catastrophic failures....even if they were to take apart an engine at 200,000 miles and they find wear, then I wouldn't worry about that.
I haven't heard of any catastrophic failures....even if they were to take apart an engine at 200,000 miles and they find wear, then I wouldn't worry about that.
03-04-2011, 04:49 PM
#19
^^whoops, you're right. My bad.
I meant wear, and agree that 150k-200k for a failing engine is bad.
Just to add my
, I'd get the pulleys.
I meant wear, and agree that 150k-200k for a failing engine is bad.
Just to add my
, I'd get the pulleys.
Last edited by CarbonGray Earl; 03-04-2011 at 04:51 PM.
06-05-2011, 03:49 AM
#23
very interesting topic!!! any more updates on the oil?? im considering pulleys now.. lol on a side note, is there a gain to getting underdrive puilley vs oem size but lighter?
06-06-2011, 09:10 PM
#24
El Cunado
I doubt someone would know a crank pulley is at fault for engine damage unless they've been constantly monitoring for that specific reason. My crank pulley has been fine for over 3,000 miles now. Many people have had them for a lot longer.
06-06-2011, 09:12 PM
#25
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06-07-2011, 02:28 PM
#26
I was reading through, would an engine damper help with the NVH cause by a full UR pulley set for my 2004. It won't bother me, however I can hear my wife now thinking how my car is falling apart (assuming the vibration can be felt a lot).
06-08-2011, 05:55 PM
#27
The pulleys don't really increase noise at all and we have not had any issues with the lightweight crank pulleys on Honda/Acura vehicles. We have J-series customers with 200k+ miles with the crank pulley with no issues. The key is to get the proper pulley: Unorthodox Racing.
They are machined properly and balanced properly.
They are machined properly and balanced properly.
06-09-2011, 09:55 PM
#28
I'll add my own anecdotal evidence from Blackstone. My oil change interval is 1 year and 10,200 miles on Mobil 1 5W-30. About 7000 of these miles are with the UR under-drive pulley set installed.
Also, I run 87 octane pump gas from Arco. Suck on that fuel snobs. I should run regular oil next time just so I can anger as many people as possible.
JON: The computer wanted us to highlight iron, but we overruled it. Why? Because iron is one of the
metals that tends to accumulate in the oil when you run your oil longer than average. As long as its wear
rate is fairly steady and it's not affecting other wear, we don't worry about extra iron after a long oil run. Our
averages are based on 6,000 miles of use, so considering your longer oil run, wear looks great. The
viscosity was a pinch low, but we're not calling that a problem. A TBN has too few active additives when it
reads 1.0, so your 2.8 reading is good yet. Go 12,000 miles.
metals that tends to accumulate in the oil when you run your oil longer than average. As long as its wear
rate is fairly steady and it's not affecting other wear, we don't worry about extra iron after a long oil run. Our
averages are based on 6,000 miles of use, so considering your longer oil run, wear looks great. The
viscosity was a pinch low, but we're not calling that a problem. A TBN has too few active additives when it
reads 1.0, so your 2.8 reading is good yet. Go 12,000 miles.
Last edited by redpoint; 06-09-2011 at 09:58 PM.
07-02-2011, 08:55 AM
#29
I havnt heard of anyone having issues with pullies on honda engines since they are pretty balanced. On the other hand, the shop i go to focuses on nissan 350z etc, and for that engine I wouldn't get a lightweight pulley. You need the harmonic balance from the stock pulley.
07-07-2011, 04:25 PM
#30
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ive had my UR pulleys on for a year and everything is fine.I was also concerned about the mixed reviews i found but nothing has happened yet and hope nothing happens.
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