MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

They look just like regular rotors to me with some holes and slots...

R1 Premium rotors:
"R1 Exclusive Double Drilled and Staggered Holes
R1 Exclusive Diamond Slots
Super Accurate CNC Computer Machining
All Holes Chamfered
Stronger Castings with Premium Iron and Double Disc Grinding
Black Electro-Coated Finish "

R1 E-Line Rotors:
"No Modification Needed – Bolt On Replacements
Exclusive R1 Concepts State-of-the-Art Drill/Slotting Technology
Precision CNC Machining with Chamfered Holes
Zinc Plated for Protection "

All these "features" are concerned with the technique and quality of the holes and slots. Those really won't help your bang at all. Sounds like a lot of BS to me. "E" in E-Line stands for "Economy."

"Stronger castings with Premium Iron" WTH does that mean? Stronger that what? Stronger how? What do they do to them? How do they test them?


Racingbrake has:
Curved Vanes for better cooling
Alloyed Iron with Solution Heat Treatment - increase hardness, slower wear and less dusting
Black coating for cosmetics
In-house engineering using 3D modeling

Visit the R1 site and you will find all kinds of great information about...well, stuff other than brakes really. I especially like the "R1 Model News" in the blog section. I can't find any tech info at all on their site. Visit the Racingbrake site and you might actually learn something about brakes.

For example, R1 FAQ section: http://www.r1concepts.com/faq.php
Racingbrake FAQ section: http://www.racingbrake.com/v/main/faq.asp

R1 Premium TSX product page:
http://store.r1concepts.com/Items/It...es%20-%20Front

Racingbrake UP product page:
http://www.racingbrake.com/TSX_FRONT...1-211-1034.htm

Is Racingbrake more "buck?" Yes, But at least you will get some "bang" too! R1 looks like it is offering a lateral move in quality, for less buck. Slots and drills and paint are "look at me" features. The design is what will make the part better than another one. Seriously I have a Centric account too, and could open the same product package R1 has in the Fastline name But I don't because Racingbrake, to me, already provides the best rotor on the market and I am not sure how I'd REALLY compete with them. All the other stuff out there is just vying for market share with the same damn parts!


So bang for the buck???? The user wants Best Bang for the Buck? Well??? First let's ask, HOW MUCH BANG ARE YOU LOOKING FOR? Because for me there is really only 2 brands offering any REAL bang, Racingbrake and DBA. And Racingbrake has a lower buck!

Marcus

tdottsx

I was quoted $265 (4 brakes 4 rotors) shipped. If you can come close to that price i would buy them. When it comes down to it, they may not be the best brakes but from many reviews that i have read they are a little better than oem and cost half the price. Not all of us can want to spend $500-600 when there is a cheaper alternative. Yes it may be hurting your business, because people are going with a cheaper product but this is business, r1 realized that not everyone wants to spend $500-600(especially when you dont know how long you are keeping the car), so they made a product for half the price, may not be as good, but the do the job.

808havok_tsx

why ugprade at all then? just replace with OEM and call it a day. there are a lot of people (like me) who plan on keeping their cars for a long time and are willing to invest in quality parts for the duration of ownership.

i for one don't cheap out on tires and brakes. i always look for values obviously, but, don't intentionally buy products because they are "cheap". sometimes, the brand-name *does* make a difference in quality.

tires/brakes are your life's connection to the road, and the only way to stop. how much is your life worth?

curls

I partially agree with you, 808havoc_tsx, but then again its not like an R1 or Powerstop or even the cheapest brown-box rotors and pads won't STOP your car. I think the performance difference between an R1 set and a Racingbrake set might be what, 2-3% "improvement" in stopping distance compared to the R1 set, or maybe a few months more rusted-hub protection from the paint/coating that Racingbrake uses over the R1's or Powerstops. To me, paying roughly double for the Racingbrake set just was NOT making sense as the products are so very similar. Manufacturer claims, or lack thereof, don't necessarily mean that one brake rotor (a slab of metal) is so greatly different than another slab of metal that's priced at nearly double.

With next to no claims by anyone with any make/model of vehicle saying that Powerstop or R1 Concepts rotors and pads are bad and poor performers, why bother doubling the cost to get something thats likely to perform almost the same (probably not even a noticeable difference to someone who doesn't track their car every weekend and put it through the abuse).

Just my $0.02.

808havok_tsx

^ yer assertions are correct curls.

i guess what i was trying to say is that going the "cheap" route is not really cheap if it sacrifices something rather big - like safety. if that's the case, i'd rather stick with OEM; at least i know the car will perform per its engineering.

usually the intent of "upgrading" or changing out parts is to enhance the performance of the car in that particular aspect. while its true a good chunk of the upgrades are visually driven, the visuals are also inspired by true race-bred technology, i.e. slotted/drilled brake rotors and different types of brake pads.

does that 2-3% make a big difference? in the real world, maybe, maybe not. if it means i'll stop a couple of feet faster with brand "a" rather than brand "b", it could be the difference between being in a fender bender and a huge accident.

at the end of the day, everyone has their own reasons for upgrades and mods. as long as they can live with their choice, i guess its not for anyone else to say their choice was right or wrong...

i personally am quite a ways from changing out rotors, but, when i do, i'll give all the recommended brands a good hard look and eventually pick the one i feel will balance value with actual performance.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

The reason to by Racingbrakes is not for better stopping, it is for better cooling and longer life! And if you are thinking you'd be getting better stopping from R1s, you are wrong there too!

PADS make the stopping difference! It is up to the rotors to stand up to the pads. And when it comes to street sports and performance pads, the Racingbrakes will outlast the competition without warping.

CarbonGray Earl

I guess I should chime in since I seem to be the defacto R1 homer.

For the price of going stock, knowing the performance of my own stock rotors (prone to warp, fade, etc) these are a fine rotor.

My experience:

50k miles on the rotors (90k on the TSX itself)
2 sets of aggressive pads (Axxis ULT and Akebonos)
SS lines from Tirerack (forgot the brand)
LA and OC driving (80 mph cruising to complete stops at freeway junctions).
and I describe myself as an aggressive driver.

Best thing I can say is that I don't think about the rotors except when it needs service. This is with the caveat that my experience was with a combination of more aggressive pads, ss brakelines, and brake fluid flush, these have performed great. Its better than stock, IMO... absent of any warping whatsoever, 'bite' is better (though that's more pad related), and they've withstood multiple bed-in sessions .

On a side note, I actually went to their La Habra factory to pick up the rotors. It was about as shady as any industrial factory. The sales people were friendly, and didn't mind staying open for me to pick up my rotors. Not that that adds to anything...

I'm not arguing for or against racingbrake, but the R1s have been fine for me and a couple of other friends that drive more powerful cars than we do that have used it. Of course I support our vendor here, and can't help but present another side of the story.

anyways...thats just my . to marcus.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

But really think about it...have you ever used stock pads with the R1? Or the Axxis pads with the stock rotors?

I think a lot of the blame for shakes and things goes to the rotors when the pads are the cause.

The point about the Racingbrakes is they can take a much more aggressive pad, like the HP+ for example, and stain up to them daily.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

What my point is, just like camber kits get a lot of false praise for preventing tire wear, cheap replacement rotors get a lot of false praise for eliminating reoccurring shaking problem when they really add nothing more than aesthetics.

CarbonGray Earl

I don't disagree you. That's the caveat when considering my experience, that my rotors were always used with something other than stock. so I can't for certain say there is any improved performance, reliabilty, etc, from stock due solely to the rotors.

Point being, my experience is my experience. I won't lie and say that R1 isn't a leap of faith, especially if the buyer isn't good at weeding out what's good/bad or whatever. I'm comfortable enough in my experiences and my knowledge to put my family in the car everyday with the rotors, but that's me.

I'm not trying to get on your bad side or anything and I don't dispute what you say...you are likely right, as you not only have experience with 1 car, you see this sort of thing on the daily. Racingbrake is absolutely the better brand and better product, while I would only describe R1 as good enough for me.

mdkxtreme

Hey Marcus, I know you're trying to promote your product (Otherwise you would have mentioned other names), but for a normal, daily driven car, people like me don't need brand names and better made rotors/pads. I just ordered 4 rotors, 4 pads from brakemotive for 180 shipped. I don't need rotors or pads that can make me stop on a dime. Besides, brakes are only as good as the tires. I just need something to slow me to a stop so that I don't pass that pedestrian line at a red light. It's like getting a turbo/super charger and never track the car a day in your life. It's kind of pointless, for me, to get something of high end if I'm never going to use it to it's fullest.

People say, "Well these brakes have better stopping power." Well how good does a brake have to be to stop a car at 40mph? Any pads or rotors can do that. Unless tracking the car is your hobby, getting high end brand names are mainly for the Oohs and Aahs. You're never gonna use them to its fullest intent.

Just my thoughts. Any rebuttal is fine.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

This is not personal for me at all folks! Don't worry about getting on a bad side with me, I can take it

Experience versus experience my comments are based on the culmination of my automotive work, education, and customer feedback. So I am not just trying to promote a product I sell...I am trying to promote the product I think serves customers best! I could be selling R1 as well, but why do that when something else is really better and honestly not that expensive.


Ok, I will rebut then..AND PLEASE THESE COMMENTS ARE NOT INTENDED TO BE TAKEN PERSONALLY. I tend to speak in generalities so be careful when you read. Let's call this a friendly debate which I will happily concede to if I should be overruled!

It sounds to me like you needed some new brakes and just wanted something cheap. And as long as they are not any worse than stock you are ok with that. And it sounds like you got what you wanted!

But not everyone is looking for something cheap. When I read "bang for the buck" my mind first goes "what is the best thing I can get for the most reasonable price?" Not, "what is the most reasonable performing cheap stuff?" So I think we have a fundamental difference of perspective here. You are budget minded, and I am performance minded. And no, not just track performance! Street sport and economy performance as well!

Naturally the same parts are not going to be as good for different people in all cases. It really is not about branding; it is about product attributes. The R1 to me have no significant attributes over anything else, and therefore I don't consider them any sort of upgrade. And to you, not looking for any sort upgrade, would not take offense to that. Thus you would go for them, and I would not necessarily...

Conversely, the Racingbrake, while never claimed to be able to stop on a dime, has a set of features that I feel are worth paying the extra for. It is a practical choice to get the rotor with better engineering and longer life. If such qualities place the product outside of your price range then it is understandable to take the inferior yet perfectly adequate part. However if the features and engineering are ignored in favor of choosing the lower cost item, the choice to take the inferior part is taken by incorrect conclusions and the choice is an ignorant one. The only third variable is another perfectly viable reason to get the cheaper part, and that is the set of features is noticed and acknowledged by the customer, but not deemed to be valuable enough to invest the extra money in. I think that is where you are.

This is a very refined and interesting comment you've made here. It represents a level of understanding beyond that of the normal user. I agree completely, but we are not really talking about braking performance here. We are talking about the difference between buying a well engineered yet higher costing part versus getting a replacement part with subtle if not insignificant surface improvements.


Ok now we are talking about safety and "what-if" scenarios. Brakes is one of those things where you never hope to need the fullest performance yet becomes immediately invaluable the moment you do need it! It is really sort of absurd to ever say "I don't need my brakes to work 'that good'." You never know that until you need it, and you never know when that is going to be. We should all hope our cars could stop well enough to avoid any real major emergency situations!

If you don't want to overshoot the line when coming to a stop, brake earlier! If you don't want to hit a pedestrian who jumps in front of your car, SLAM ON THE DAMN BRAKES AND PRAY TO GOD YOU DON'T HIT HIM! In other words, hope your brakes work well enough!

You can NEVER have too much braking power.


Ok, I feel this comment is silly. There is no direct correlation between upgrading your car and taking it to the track. Nor is there a direct correlation between track tuning a car then driving on the street. If you use 80% of the full potential of a part on the street you are really probably driving too fast! And that is with the stock car!

But with brakes I think the ultimate limit is capacity of the system. I'd rather use 50-60% of my potenial braking power and know that I am not overworking the parts at all. And if my parts give better performance than the stock stuff, it just means you have more in reserve. No, you don't threshhold brake at every stoplight. You may never do that. But again, when you NEED to STOP NOW, you probably, really, would like to do so!

You might be right about upgrading the car to the nth percent a pointless thing to do on the street, but brakes is kinda one of those things where I staunchly disagree.





An it is not just about stopping better either. It is about the brake life and the brake dust. Racingbrakes and high end DBAs are harder than other conventional rotors so they don't wear as much! This means, 2-3 times the life and less dusting. That is less washing and less replacing! Even if the cost comes out to the same in the end, you are ahead in labor cost with the Racingbrakes.


There are cheap purchases, and there are frugal ones. The only difference really comes down to the individual.


Marcus

mdkxtreme

That was one of the.....nicest......rebuttals I've read on Azine, hahaha. Yea it was probably silly for me to compare turbos with brakes. But you're right on the mentality. You're more of an enthusiast and performance minded than me. Thus the reason why you recommended and praised the products that you mentioned. I guess I outgrew the whole perfomance things in cars because I have a family now (yes I am young) and money is tight.

Other than that, you definitely showed your knowledge on your products.

CarbonGray Earl

cool marcus, thanks for the insight and the discussion.

Even though I didn't buy your product, I trust the information you provide on this topic and other products.

tdottsx

It is clearly different strokes for different folks. I have a shitty set of summer tires, (Nexen(paid $90 each) compared to Yoko's($150+), but they work fine, i have never came close to being in an accident, and they do what they where intended to do. It is all about your driving style and tendencies.

I guess we can sum this up by saying, if you want cheap brakes that will perform the same as stock and dont care about the performance aspect than R1 is a good choice, if you would like something more performance based and better than stock than go with what Marcus is selling.

Great discussion! next topic

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

I feel like you guys keep glossing over the longer-life aspect...getting better rotors can be just as much an economical decision as getting cheap ones. To buy a product that gets you more use per dollar is a frugal thing to do.

Just because they are called "Racingbrake" doesn't mean they are for racing only. I even said, given the same pad Racingbrake won't specifically out-brake the next rotor. The performance we focus on is the life of the rotor.

Tsx536

^^ I've had RacingBrake rotors for 50K+ miles now and they are great! I don't have problems with warping like I did with the OEM rotors. And the rotors have stood up to my abuse. I brake pretty hard at times too. There have been quite a few moments where I'm get on it, but have to suddently back up. Since I am supercharged, good brakes are important, and the RB rotors have really been good for me.

AlistairF

Hello,
I am thinking of getting new rotors and pads for my 04 tsx. I would love to get some RB stuff but I live in Toronto and with shipping, the price is a little out of my budget. Anyone know if there is a local alternative?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Welcome to your first post!

All I can say is, I know the shipping is a lot. It is unfortunate. If you are ok with UPS shipping we could do free shipping, but in our experience most international people want USPS because of the faster transit and lower fees on arrival.

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

I was going ask you that marcus on your site it said 75 dollars for a set for racing brakes i was like holy cow... haha
is there any alternatives?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

You really should be using the "Build My Own Brakes" page to order the brakes. Shipping is included in these prices.

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

Oh maybe thats why....