Dan Martin

Nice work Professor!



I bet we could shave 10+ft off those braking distances with good tires. I can easily get the ABS to come on with the OEM Michelins and dry pavement.

Saintor

Frankly, I never expected that they would choose it over a 250HP car able to clock a 0-60 in 5.7s.

But I agree about the Sub. I drove it back in June and found that it was no sport car. A matter of temper. I wished that they include a loaded Mazda 6s.

fdl

As usualy the 5-60 time of the TSX is very impressive. It can even hand with the legacy here. The high ratio top gear also helped its top gear accel times.

Another interesting note is the top speed of 136 mph, which is higher than in their origional review of the TSX.

But the 0-60 of that legacy ... is just ridiculous.

AcuraFan

It just goes to show you there's FAR more to a car then how fast it is.

Saintor

Well, power can corrupt.

JustaThought

Here's a thought by another forum user:

This is a direct copy and paste quote from here to the end:

Sorry about the book below, but I think they're all VERY good and valid points, if I do say so myself.

I agree with the fact the TSX is a nice car. No doubt about it...they pretty much took the philosophy of the VW Jetta and realized...hey this VW Jetta is selling like hot cakes.
The VW wasn't the fastest of cars (though faster than the TSX) but it offered a HOST of nice interior features, plenty of style inside and out, and at a reasonable price.
But funny, the TSX hasn't sold nearly as well as the current Jetta did in it's first year.
Heck, the Jetta may still be outselling the TSX and it's 6 years old.

But, the point is, this article was suppose to be comparing "sport" sedans.
And the TSX may "feel" sporty, and handle well, but a HUGE part of sport is having power. Can you imagine a Corvette that did everything it does now, but has a weak motor and accelerates at the bottom of it's class? How well would it be considered a sports car? It would get laughed at.
Funny how all the mags chastised the VW Jetta and VW GTI for being to SOFT and not driver oriented enough, though they both handle just as well as the TSX, but will out muscle the TSX, and offers two engine options as well. Anyway.


I think most of you are right about the Volvo vs LGT though. Based on their comments about the Volvo, it clearly should NOT have be rated higher than the LGT
Consider these comments:

Volvo: Comfortable for "average or small" drivers. And those with large feet will get their shoes hung up on the depressions in the floor. But when scoring "Driver Comfort" they gave the Volvo and 8 out of 10, the same as the LGT. Huh?

Volvo: Regarding ergonomics: dials are black on grey and hard to read, there's not enough contrast. With sunglasses on you can't see them. But yet they say it has a "stylish dash".
In the LGT's case they write that the cockpit is bright and lets lots of sunshine in, it has a "wonderous" dash that's sharp and "perfectly legible"
Yet they give the Volvo the same 8 out of 10 they give the LGT. Huh?

Features and amenities: They give the Volvo a 9 and the LGT a 7 out of 10.
Does AWD not count? That's a pretty SIGNIFICANT feature if you ask me. What other "features" does the Volvo have that the LGT doesn't that makes them overlook the AWD?

This is a good one here:

In regards to "Throttle response" with the VOLVO they write:
"Difficult to launch" and it's the ONLY car that the professional drivers REPEATEDLY stalled during testing. They complained about the usual turbo lag, but implied it was more pronounced in the Volvo than the Legacy.
With the Legacy they commented on how it had very little turbo lag and great point and shoot acceleration.

Yet when it came time to score in "Throttle response" they only gave the Legacy one more point than the Volvo. And ironically, well maybe not, they gave the TSX the same score as the Legacy in throttle response, even though they stated: "from smooth starts from zero (which happens to take place quite often) we'd appreciate a less aggressive throttle linkage, it's too zingy now, and unnecessarily hard on the clutch." Hmm, you'd think that would knock it down a bit more, considering their were NO complaints about the Legacy's throttle response.


This also got me about the "Steering Feel"
In regards to the Volvo they stated it, "isn't at all sharp at speed"
Yet again they gave the Volvo a 9 out of 10 on steering feel, and the Legacy gets only an 8 out of 10. Hmmm?

Lastly there's the "Gotta Have it" score!
Now let see here, they award this section alone 25 points.
That's more than they give to Engine Performance and Chassis Performance...combined!
But anyway, let's quote the VERY FIRST thing they say about the Legacy GT:
"Eyes are still wide in the enthusiast community following the news that we can order 250 hp in a Legacy. That inks this roomy sedan on more gotta-have-it lists." Let's clarify....enthusiasts have their eyes bugged out for the LGT and as C and D says, this puts the LGT on the most gotta have it lists!

YET, they gave the TSX the most "gotta have it" points by far (22) than they gave the Legacy GT (19). And the Volvo is only one point behind at (18).
I'm sorry, but I know an AWFUL LOT of enthusiast (including those on this and other boards) that couldn't wait to get an LGT.
I personally don't know ANY that are salivating to get a TSX or the Volvo.
Heck, my friend sold his EVO to get the LGT because he wanted some luxury with his performance. And how many people have sold their WRX's and SRT-4's to get the Legacy GT? I know quite a few just from the car forums.
Any enthusiast sell these kind of cars to get the TSX? Most likely no, I can't even imagine they would!

So how exactly does C & D explain the huge "eyes wide open" comment and giddy anticipation and excitement over the LGT, yet give the TSX the most points and give a "is there anybody interested in buying the Volvo" only one point less than the Subaru?

These rankings are bogus...and Car and Driver needs to know about it.
This test was for "sport" sedans, not "which feels sporty and has the best interior" sedans. In the sport section, the LGT is the winner. The Volvo comes in second. And to think, this LGT was most likely a non broken in low mileage car. There's expectation by quite a few that the LGT is a 13.9 second car stock.
I'm glad I ordered the LGT Limited.
The only other 4 door sport sedan I even considered was the 2005 Infiniti G35.
But it is a step up in class and therefore would of cost me a lot more to get the same features as the Legacy and I didn't want to spend that much more, plus wait until December 2005 to get a manual one.

Winner in the $26-30K true SPORT sedan category = Subaru Legacy GT
It's no contest and I'm sure no TSX driver would disagree when it comes to sport driving (drag racing, track racing, canyon carving, etc), the TSX wouldn't stand a chance!

xizor

lol, I burst out laughing the first time I read the above post on the subie forum. fanboyism at its best. I wont even try to point out how wrong you are about the TSX as everyone on this forum knows how bogus your post is but...

How's the Legacy selling? I think the vw forum nailed it, sales are barely up for the new model. Obviously not everyone is as convinced of the Legacy's prowess as you are.

Oops, I guess the BMW 325 dropped off the sporty list as well because it has less HP than the TSX. Sportiness is more than power, as TSX owners (and BMW owners) know, its about feel. If you demand more HP, you might be making up for faults elsewhere (which C&D pointed out)

vitocorleone

I don't know that a fairly base model 325 would've gotten first place in this comparison - they were judging across the board, not just performance (which it obviously would've won, and would've done well on the fun factor). I think a BMW in this price range would've gotten 2nd or 3rd. Can you get an IS with an MSRP below $30k?

EDIT: "I'm glad I ordered the LGT Limited." - hmm. The LGT is a great car, but you're sounding a lot like you're trying to justify your purchase in comparison to a review. STOP. So what if this review scored the LGT low - it's just a review. If HP is what makes a car great to you and you like everything else it has, who cares what other people think if you're happy. As long as you accept that other people find a well-balanced package superior as equally valid.

gocubsgo55

very concise, and true write-up. HOWEVER, what you do fail to realize (and please don't think I'm bashing you, I'm just defending C&D) is that the article wasn't based on one thing. Performance-wise, the Subie whoops Arse, and the A4 and TSX are underpowered. But, Subaru can't touch the "prestige factor" of a Volvo or Acura, let alone an Audi. By this I mean buyers of the other 3 (especially Audi, slightly lesser Acura) want to pull up knowing the badge is something a Subaru, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc. owner would know is a better brand, not that I'm trying to offend anyone here. In these cars you get a small package filled with plenty of goodies, hence the 30k price.What the article said was that, for its market segment, the Acura TSX is the best "ALL AROUND" car. If luxury is the only thing you were looking for, the A4 would be the best option. The Legacy GT gets to 60 from nothing in 5,7 seconds . The TSX is a nice mix of both, sacrificing luxury and sport for a combination of the 2. That's why everyone here bought it I'm sure, if not most. Although the TSX does not have A4 materials or LGT turbo, it does have excellent fit and finish/ nicely made materials and 200 hp out of an i-VTEC 4 banger. A nice mix of both worlds, and that's why it's one of C&D's 10 best, and that's why it took 1st place in the 30k showdown. Just my opinion.

gfxdave99

An IS with NO options and a 5 speed is 29.980, but i can garuntee you that you'll never see a completely stripped IS on any lexus lot.

gfxdave99

I would disagree that the interior materials of the Audi are any nicer then the TSX. I have driven both and while the interior of the Audi is nice, I have recieved nothing but compliments about the TSX's interior (including some A4 owners).

xizor

Couldn't help it, one more. If you want to be a good sports sedean don't come in last braking and skid pad, and worse than the TSX in lane change. I hope all Legacy owners aren't solely concerned with power, because there's a lot more fun to driving than just driving straight.

fdl

Sportiness is also about chassis dynamics, feeling (i.e. fun to drive), transmission, etc ..all of which the TSX exceled in. What the TSX lacks in power, it makes up for in other sporty areas. And if you look at certain tests, such as 5-60 ..the straight line performance in the TSX right up there.

JustaThought

Relax, I just cut and paste that.
I personally like the TSX and am considering it for my fiance.
I have yet to drive the TSX or the Volvo though.
I did drive the Legacy GT. I disagree somewhat with Car and Driver's assessment.
The car is smoking fast. But in the first 1 mile of the test drive, the first thing I said to the sales guy is, these tires are awfully soft and produce a decent amount of road noise.
It was my first complaint and really the biggest complaint Car and Driver had.
I agree with the others, had Subaru simply put on sportier tires, many of the handling characteristics, and braking numbers would have improved.
I also agree with those of you who said the Subaru isn't a premium brand, and therefore can't be expected to have the fit and finish of the others. Though I thought it was quite nice inside the car. I also drove a WRX to compare it to the Legacy GT and the Legacy GT feels much faster. I think those 5-60 mph times they list is a mistake on the Legacy. I pulled away from a light with the car then floored it, after a bit of turbo lag, it takes WAY off.

The Volvo S40 T5 is a very nice car too. This was a "euro spec" car so it makes me wonder though, is there anything different in the suspension tuning, engine tuning or anything else. Usually Euro spec cars get stiffer suspension tuning for more high speed driving stability.
So I question the validity of using it in this test. It might have performed better than it the US version would. I would seriously consider this car for my fiance too. I like the looks of the car, and the safety involved with a Volvo. But then there's the Volvo stigma, though going away, it's still there.

I like the Audi A4 very much. Have driven it a couple times. But the 1.8T in this heavy car is overburdened. They have stellar interiors and are as solid as a rock.


Honestly I don't think there's a loser in any of these cars. The Legacy GT is so new that it's going to take a bit to get the word out. It's worth a drive for those wanting a sport sedan with A LOT of muscle and AWD stability. It along with the Volvo's sales will most likely be a bit slow compared to Acura's and Audi's. But that doesn't make them bad cars, it's more because of the name. They're both thought of like Saab's a bit quirky.
I would of thought the rankings to be very close....your not a fool if you buy any of these cars!

OTT-TSX

I was very surprised at the 3rd place finish of the Legacy !

But rock on TSX

TSXforme

Of course the TSX would win. The TSX was named to C & D's best 10 cars. Imagine their position if they ranked their top 10 selection number 2 on this recent comparison.

xizor

well neither the Volvo or Subaru was out when the list came out.

JustaThought

But in defense of AWD cars, if you've never driven an AWD car before, you've got to know they don't do the best in the skidpad.
The WRX itself only got a .82g on the skidpad.
AWD cars tend to adjust power from one side to the other, so circling a large circle as fast as you can doesn't really prove anything when it comes to handling. Nobody does that in real life, so I don't even look at skidpad numbers when it comes to handling. Slalom and track times prove way more. And common knowledge too is that the skidpad is greatly reflected by tires too. The tires Subaru choose to put on the Legacy is unexplainable. They are rated at the bottom of the pack for all the tires in their class. The TSX's aren't great either, but a significant improvement.

I haven't driven the TSX yet and plan on doing so soon. My fiance's lease is almost up on her current car and we'll be getting her another in the next month or so.
I took the Legacy GT on a test drive, I threw it around hard enough for even the young sales guy to ask me to cool it. With that power and AWD traction, I don't think the torque challenged FWD only TSX would be able to run with the Legacy, and I'm not just talking a straight line. But honestly, I don't think it was intended too. That's why I question the car's C & D choose to put in this comparo.

biker

The slalom speed is one of the reasons the TSX won.

xizor

That's humorous, considering the Evo crowd always touts their skidpad numbers and are proud to hold over a g. It seems highly important to Sti owners as well, of which both cars are AWD, so I'd say your skidpad comments are absolutely wrong. The skidpad is about stability and chasis, if the LGT can't hold it, it shows there's something wrong. Ethusiast magazines like SCC but an emphasis on skipad as well. I understand the stock tires are bad, but any TSX owner can tell you the stockers are terrible as well, so that's a moot point.

and again, even if the LGT beats the other cars in 0-60 or track times, so what. A Neon SRT4 can rip down a straightaway, is anyone kidding themselves into thinking its a sports car? A 325 could likely lose to a LGT in track times as well, and be similar to a TSX, that's not the end all of comparissons.

gogozy

yes, TSX is a great car....
my 2 month old daughter did not rid with me today so i drive with th way i wish for 2 month, then end up a speeding ticket... it sooo eager to be driven fast.... and faster... i was just doing some passing while the police said i did 140KM/h great car!! i did not even realized it... (don't know i shall be happy or not)

waTSX

Xizor,

Again and again it comes down to straightline speed and power for a substantial portion fo the American driving public. I don't know if it's because of our history, the muscle car era, the drag racing legacy, et al, but a lot of U.S. drivers completely dismiss a car, often sight unseen, because they perceive that it doesn't have enough HP.

I saw an interesting piece on Speed recently, pitting about ten of the great cars of the muscle car era against each other, in a test very similar to the one C&D did. While all the cars had great straightline speed, when it came to the other areas of the test it was shocking to see how bad they were. I'm talking braking, slalom, etc. They all had wallowy suspensions and crappy brakes. It's amazing how far cars have come since that time.

Since when did a 200HP, high revving, snorting four banger with respectable torque become underpowered?

If anything, the C&D review shows that, when it comes down to all around performance, the TSX stacks up as well as any against its intended competition.

I'll take the balanced car any day of the week.

blackjackman

First place ?! Those C&D guys must be smoking something funny
Totally agree on comments on the seat paddings.

What they mean by "throttle goosey in traffic" ?

Dan Martin

What's your pick for 1st then?

waTSX

They're talking about the TSX's rather abrupt throttle tip-in.

blackjackman

MY TSX

neuronbob

Great article! Thanks for both sets of scans. It again goes to show you what a class leader the TSX is. It certainly helps that C & D were consistent lovers of the Integra, which the TSX (kinda) replaces.

And I can't waiit for my C & D to arrive to see the initial impressions of the new RL....

poltergeist

Anyone know when the October C&D will hit the news-stands? I drove all over this evening and no-one seems to have it yet, just a few copies of the Sept.

Of course, I've subscribed to Road and Track for over four years, and they have yet to have any meaningful reviews or comparos on the TSX. I think it's time to switch subscriptions....

mg7726

poltergeist: it's already at newsstands. i just read the article at B&N store this afternoon.

poltergeist

Thanks. I didn't try Barnes and Noble because there isn't one very close to me, but the local Borders Books didn't have it, nor any of the Supermarkets/convenience stores I tried. Guess I'll keep looking tomorrow.

At least I know there's some out there somewhere!

heyitsme

Its hard to get a picture of what happened when only the tsx portion of the article was posted, would have liked to have seen the legacy's portion of the road test. Also, the legacy placing 3rd, in a group of luxury cars, when it's altima, accord, and camry competition doesn't seem bad to me.

Dan Martin

Did you not see page two of this thread?

heyitsme

Haha, sorry, I went from 1 to 3.

heyitsme

Haha, sorry, I went from 1 to 3, but after reading the legacy portion I'm still wondering where the negative portion of the review is.

ClutchPerformer

I don't know why everyone's so surprised. There's a reason it's on the "10 Best". C&D actually likes this car (which is still strange since they hate FWD cars so much).

phile

It has happened before. And don't forget, C&D was among the many who chastized the TSX's FWD layout, which totally surprised me when I saw the TSX on the 10Best list.

gilboman

i'm glad they got the cars that are in the TSX' class...but would've been nice if they included a Mazda 6 in there as well. but honestly a S40, A4 1.8T and Legacy (with its scooby interior) is not an "overwhelming" class of cars.

TSX Hokie

Well Gilbo, people that can only afford to spend <$30k on their sports sedan are not from an 'overwhelming' socioeconomic class. Save your elitism for the BMW boards.

ClutchPerformer

Right. So they must really be impressed with the TSX if it overturned their RWD bias.

Jason

I got my C/D and read the article. I must say I am very impressed with the results. The S40 is a good car and the Subie has a lot going for it as well. But there was no comparison, the TSX fully whipped up on those cars.

Sure it would have been nice to throw in a Mazda 6 and maybe a few others, but this was an upscale car comparo and I don't think the Mazda fits in. The MB C-class would have worked, but damn, you can't really get one for under $30k (C/D's words).