neuronbob

I'm a mod over on the 3G TL board at A-TL.com, but have lurked over here a lot since A-TSX.com hosted the very first 3G TL pix over a year ago. It was in part because of the pix that I bought my TL in October last year. I've had it in for service a few times since then and have driven a non-navi TSX as a loaner on several occasions. I just spent a week in a TSX loaner because my windshield wipers went out and it took a week to get the part. I took advantage of the opportunity to really got to know this car.

Long story short: TSX owners should be proud they have such a great car. I'm looking at buying one for the wife when she wants to upgrade her '01 Accord. Not as powerful as the TL but has great handling. It's great that the SS lets you do 1->2 manually rather than automatically. Cramped rear seat.

Details:
Appearance: The car is basically "TL Jr." It lacks the character line of the TL but has its own, distinctly European look with all its sharp angles. If this car had been the refresh of the U.S. Accord in 2003, instead of being just the European Accord, and it came with a V6, I probably wouldn't have a TL now.

Interior: The dash has a different layout from the TL. In the TL, there is a blue ambience that is present at all times because of blue lights all over the cockpit. The TSX lacks this, but has an efficient layout that is, typical of Hondas, easy to read. It took a little time to become accustomed to 40 mph being at 8:00 rather than 10:00 on the speedometer, but that's a minor detail. Buttons are pretty much the same as in the TL except that they are not chromed. I happen to like the carbon fiber and aluminum trims in the TL, and the TSX is a blander in that regard. The leather in the seats is not of as high a quality as the TL, but they are more form-fitting than in the TL. It would be more difficult to carry my in-laws in the back seat as it is smaller than the TL's. I missed the Bluetooth HFL integration of the TL. Now that I have a Motorola V710 from Verizon, I am just abusing this feature in the TL. Overall, the interior is not as opulent as the TL, but that is to be expected at a price level several thousand dollars less than a TL.

Driving and handling: I miss the power of the TL when I'm in this car. That is not to say that the TSX is not powerful. In fact, it pulls very nicely for a 4-banger. The engine even manages to sound disciplined, though it cannot hide its origins as a 4-cylinder engine as compared to the low-frequency, beast-like growl of the TL's V6. I never felt like I actually NEEDED extra power in this car, but I sure WANTED it. I guess I'm spoiled as this was one of the features of my TL I found myself missing most. Being a 4-cylinder engine, it tended to stay at 3-3.5k rpm at 80 mph as opposed to 2.5k rpm in the TL and was much noisier (obviously) than my V6 TL. The star of the show in this drivetrain is the sport shifter. As you may know, the TL's SS won't let you shift from 1st to 2nd. The TSX's will. This dramatically changes the driving experience. This is the first manumatic shifter I can use similarly to a manual, and in fact for much of my time with the car I used that rather than the regular automatic. It also shifts faster than the TL's SS. I don't even bother to use the SS on the TL; if I had a TSX, I wouldn't bother to use the regular automatic. Further, the TSX is "tossable", with only mild body roll in the turns. Over road imperfections, I found the shocks well-damped, as I had 2-3 well-controlled bounces over such. The TL, even with the A-Spec suspension I have, never, ever, lets you forget you are in a heavy luxury car. However, over bumps, I get 1-2 well-disciplined bounces, and back to neutrality. There is nearly no body roll in the turns now, but there is still some understeer. I'm planning on buying a Comptech rear sway bar shortly, and that should make the TL a lot more neutral (in addition to giving me more time in a TSX loaner ). I can take either car to the twisties and have fun, I think, but once the TL has the new sway bar, it may win the handling race. Compared with a bone stock TL, the TSX wins the handling race.

So the bottom line is what I mentioned above. I really like the TSX and it'd make my wife a great car as in everyday use, it's a stable and reliable car for my wife's driving style....yet I can also drive it in my assertive style. On balance, though, I'm still glad I spent the money for my TL as it goes to the next level in every way except stock handling, which I've obviously changed for the better with my mods.

Thanks for reading!

TSXInTheOC

Thanks for that neuronbob - that was a very well thought out, well worded evaluation of the TSX. It made me feel even better about my purchase.

einsatz

Nice.
The TSX also has the blue ambient lighting but it's not as noticeable as the TL. The TL's center console has more metal trimmings, so the ambient blue really shows through.
I agree about the leather in the TL better but disagree with the comment about the seats being better in the TSX. I used to have a CL and really miss the smooth leather and plush comfy seats of the CL. I test drove the TL and the fit was similar. The TSX is nowhere near nice on the rear and back. It took me a while to get used to the seats!

Saintor

Cramped!?

I disagree. I had the occasion to see the cars side-to-side a few times and rear room of TSX is more than expected, pratically the same as the TL, although obviously narrower, but I would never say 'cramped'.

I am still debating TSX vs TL. TL dynamic is 20% more. But this engine...what a sound.

ric

Interesting comparison. I set out to lease a TL and ended up with a TSX - I agree with many of your comments, but I weighted the assets differently.

The smaller size of the TSX is a major asset in city driving and parking for me, and I find the seat side-bolstering to be more comfortable than the more traditional TL seats - it encourages you to throw the car around a bit. I feared the downgrade from a V6 in my previous car, but have found the TSX to be aggressive enough - low-end torque is not there, but midrange performance is really quite excellent. The interior is not quite as "decked out", but that can be either an asset or a liability; I franlky like the more austere look of the TSX interior. But it was the handling that flipped me from signing for the TL; the TSX feels to me to be a much more agile and nimble car; the TL felt like a (very nice) conventional sedan. The only thing I really miss between the two cars is the power passenger seat.

If you get a TSX for your wife, you'll be able to choose.......................

soopirV900

This is strictly my undeducated opinion here, but I chose the TSX over the TL because the TSX is the 3-series in the BMW line, while the TL is the 5. I'm married, a kid on the way, but I'm not dead yet! I test drove the TL, and in all honesty, while beautiful, it was something I could see my father in...not me. Also, by going with the TSX, I've allowed myself room to upgrade, and still stay in the Acura line...I think I might go as high as the TL; the RL gives me the willies...WAAAY too old fogie. just my $0.02.

sveet

I had the flip experience about a month ago when my TSX was in the dealer for about 3 days due to the radio lights going out. They sent me out in an '04TL.

The TL is a power beast. Gobs of power. Stomp it, and it goes....right now!

It also feels like a tank. The car only weighs a few hundred pounds more than the TSX but it feels like it weighs 700-800 lbs more. Great for cruising down the I, but not very tossable. Not nearly as "dynamic" as the TSX. (It does handle very well. Heavy, but well.)

I loved the XM Radio. I hated all the rattles. This loaner had more rattles than my 91 Mustang Convertable from 10 years ago. Acura should be ashamed...

I, personally, like the dash / instrument panel design / layout better in the TSX than the TL. The rounded / soft touch buttons on the TSX feel real classy. TL good too. Might just be what I am used to.

In the end I love both cars and would drive either.

I think the TSX is a much better value at $26K than the TL at $33K. The TL is probably the "better" car. Bigger engine, overall size, more features, etc... (must be "better"), but I am not sure that those things are worth $6-8K more.

I use mine as a company car, and almost every customer I take in ends up making many comments about what an really nice car it is. They are even more amazed that it was only $26K.

neuronbob

Nice comments so far. ric and einsatz, I really did feel the seats fit me perfectly on the sides--a great asset for driving in the twisties. The TL's seats are firmer, so they're good for long trips for me. My in-laws already call my TL's rear seats "cramped" compared to my 2G TL (they seem fine to me), and they'd call the TSX's more so.

Saintor, the engine sounds in both cars are appealing in both ways. The TL's like I said above, has that beast-like growl....definitely a true "guy" car and very appealing to me. The TSX's engine, like so many Honda engines, literally BEGS to be revved, and it's quite refined-sounding for an I-4.

soopir, I'm 36 (younger than the intended demographic for the TL) and I see myself quite nicely in the car, even with kids. If you go over to A-TL.com, you'll see a lot of younguns (teens) whose mommy and daddy want to buy them a $35k car and who are just drooling over it. The RL is for older people and I don't see it being as sporty as the TSX or TL--I agree with you there. I plan to test drive one when it arrives at dealers.

Last, ric, you're right. If I buy a TSX for my wife, I'll get to choose every day between the two.

majin ssj eric

You guys are crazy! The new RL is definitely NOT old fogey! I read a comparison of it and the STS and M45 in Motor Trend and have to say that it is the meanest and best looking Acura to date. Those monster HIDs are nasty lookin'! I also prefer the headlight and tailight shapes to the TL/TSX. Honestly, if I could have come up with another $20k I would have held out for the RL, and I'm 25! As far as my TSX goes, I love it. You're spot on about the handling (I think it handles as well as my Prelude VTEC). The TL seats are nicer, but the instrument pod is much cooler looking than that of the TL, IMO. Overall, they are different cars for different folks but I wouldn't mind parking either in my garage (though I just may start saving for that new RL!).

sauceman

Thanks for the input, neuronbob. I have never test driven the TL. All I did was get into it at the dealership... and I came right back out because I felt the temptation would linger in my mind for the next 5 years (of TSX ownership) had I taken it out for a drive. It is definitely an awesome car. I have no doubt it has even better long-distance cruising capabilities than the TSX. If only the fuel economy came with it, then it would probably be a no-brainer for me... Until then, I'll be more than happy to drive the TSX for another 5 years or so.

DEI99662

Thanks a lot for your input. I enjoyed reading your perspective on both cars.

I still have plenty of time to go before I have to make my decision. As of right now, I would get the TSX, but if the TL ever gets the SH-AWD, I think you know what my decision would be.

Nicodemus

When deciding to go with the TSX or TL, there were 3 points that stuck in my mind.
1) Personal preference. I like the "cleaner" interior of the TSX. The sweeping "gull-wing" trim from door to door and simple center console are appealing to me. The console should not detract from the driving experience.
2) Price. Why pay $5-10k more for the TL to get (in my own personal opinion) a cluttered interior and
3) a V6 which is less feul efficient? With gas prices the way they are, I'll sacrifice the power and sound to be able to go out on joyrides and not worry about using up all my gas money that week. Yes, I'm on a restricted budget, so it's a huge concern for me. I know the EPA's aren't all THAT different, but I can use whatever I can get back in feul efficiency. The TSX has enough power for me, and what I lose compared to the TL's V6 I get back at the pump.

I did like TL's impressive list of technology features such as the memory settings and such.. but just couldn't justify spending that much more for something that's not really all the difficult to do on my own, and then end up paying more at the pump.

I think it really just comes down to where you priorities are.

neuronbob

I totally agree. I'm into all the geek toys in the TL and actually use them, so the extra money was well worth it. Once you start using them.....well you know the rest.

The TL's not that fuel inefficient. In my typical driving (60/40 highway/city) I get 23 mpg. I just did a 3000-mile round trip a few weeks ago and I got 29-30. Not bad for this fire-breathing V6. This is as good as my 2G TL, which had the base engine (225 hp). I also agree that the TSX has sufficient power. Its edge, especially against a bone stock TL, is in the handling--it is clearly superior. I had to add mods to bring my TL close to the TSX.

I'm hoping for SH-AWD in the TL. I'm positive it's coming, I just wish I knew when. And I hope they do something to reduce weight to take the SH-AWD into account; or (prays on knees) add another 30 hp to carry all that pork around.

Nicodemus

Of course, here I go making myself out to look like an idiot because now I'm reconsidering my position. LOL

Upon further reinspection, the difference in gas mileage is about 5-7 mpg in the city (using your 23mpg vs. my mother, who is currently averaging 30mpg in her TSX). That translates to 119 miles less per tank (at the 7mpg difference). Driving the typical ~1000 miles a month, that means that I will fill up almost 3 times a month. 91 octane premium here is about $2.00/gal, so that's about $34 a fill-up, or $102 a month in gas. The TSX, on the other hand, I would need to fill up twice a month at $34 a fill-up, or $68 a month in gas. That's almost a $40 difference. That's quite a bit to me. Take that down to $20 or $30 for a more conservative EPA estimate for the TSX in the city. Still a good chunk of coin.

However, you do get a lot in return with the increased power and especially torque, size (although not a WHOLE lot), and technology. The sound system from what I hear is exceptional, and you get the nifty maintence minder. I'll have to decide if the increased cost of ownership is worth paying an extra $5658 (before installation costs on accessories and taxes and such, this figure was reached using all MSRP prices). Plus I like the Abyss Blue Pearl better than the Arctic Blue.

As TL owner, what input could you give me to help me in my decision? TSXers, please feel free to add yours as well.

Saintor

According to Transport Canada, there is not so much difference in fuel consumption

In L/100km, both 6 speed

car / city / highway
TSX / 10.9 / 7.4
TL / 11.7 / 7.7
Difference / +8% / +4%

It is almost negligible for a so much higher output engine. Hopefully, it will get i-VTEC for 2006 and get rid of that silly timing belt.

sauceman

Transport Canada has a very poor evaluation quality. I can tell you someting about it.

Nicodemus

I'm not going by any group estimates. I'm going by real-world experience with neuronbob's TL (he told me he was getting 23mpg) and my mother's TSX. I'll take experience over estimates any day.

ric

Pure freeway driving at cruising speeds of 75/95 mph yields 31/32 mpg for me. At a more legal speed, I get about 1 mpg more. In pure city driving (stop/go, not over 35 mph, stoplight idle time) I get about 21 mpg.

Some blend of the above - 24/27 mpg. I am not the most gentle of drivers, so that is reflected in the mpg I am getting.

I think the intrinsic difference betwee the two - the TL is a very nicely powered sedan, with a full complement of luxo components - handles well enough for a large car (in comparison). The TSX is a sporty sedan with exceptional handling. The engine is powerful, but lacks low-speed torque - not a car to chip out at if you're into stoplight dragracing. Mid- speed torque is incredibly powerful, and the car responds rapidly to high-speed variations in speed, in my experience - most fun had was whipping the TSX around on the Merritt Parkway in Conneticut recently. The TXS is less comprehensive in the luxo-features. Can't speak to the sterio difference, since I'm no audiophile, but the TSX sterio belts out the stuff I listen to well enough. Only frustration with the TSX after 3,500 miles is the road sound at high speeds on concrete driving surfaces - noticeable; other threads discuss aftermarket sound deadening techniques.

So the choice depends upon what you're looking for - some of the best handling wheels on the market or a very posh sedan.

Nicodemus

I'm actually looking to get the best combination of the two... With the aero kit for the TL (A-Spec would be great, but a little pricey), the TL can certainly take on a much more sporty persona... but the TSX handles much better.

I'm still undecided!! This is killing me! Help please!!

toddstuh

The TSX/Euro Accord was designed for european roads with its narrower body,crisp handling and fuel efficient engine which is perfectly matched with the manual gearbox and also what most Europeans prefer.
On the other hand, the majority of Americans drive automatics and unfortunately, The TSX with an automatic really stymies it's performance in the area of acceleration. I noted that the TL owner had driven and reviewed an automatic TSX and as with any automatic, the torque converter saps about 10 hp from the engine. When you're only working with 200hp to begin with, thats fairly significant. The TSX with 6speed is more than capable in the area of acceleration.

In contrast the TL, built on the US Accord platform is more akin to the American style of driving where extreme handling isn't as much importance as off the line acceleration is.

As with it's sibling the V6 Accord, thicker swaybar or not, the TL won't handle as well as the TSX due to it's 250lb forward weight bias and the TL automatic's inherant torque steer problems.

dom

Actually the tourque steer issue on the TL is more of a fcator in the 6MT than it is on the AT. Or so I've heard. Likely because the Auto is putting down less HP.

toddstuh

Interesting because the 6speed TL has a limited slip differential.

dom

Again, thats only what I've heard and read. Hopefully someone with more TL expertise can chime in.

ClutchPerformer

Doesn't the 6MT have a LSD?

toddstuh

Yep, you're right Domn. Car and Driver tested a 6sp TL and complained about it's torque steer. Here's a quote from the review...

"The limited slip does its job distributing power to the front tire with more grip, but with 238 pound-feet of torque on tap, there's no masking that the torque plays an unwanted role in the steering, especially now, with the direct connection via the six-speed gearbox. If anything, the limited slip exacerbates the existing torque steer, pulling on the wheel as if each pound-foot were a G.I. Joe action figure in a tug of war. On the plus side, as long as you're conscious of this trait, accelerating out of turns is surprisingly fast, although a bit nerve-racking. A jaunt in a TL with an automatic revealed far less torque steer, thanks to the torque converter that smoothes out the power relay and the lack of a tugging limited-slip. We're usually not ones to say stuff like this, but the automatic is arguably the more fitting transmission for the TL's lofty power numbers."

Since it's apparently horsepower related, it could possibly be a limitation of the stock tires too...I mean, they are all seasons...which we all know suck in just that ....all seasons !

We all know that Honda undersizes the tires of their cars to gain better fuel economy numbers....

Look at what BMW and Porsche have done over the years, with each model year, as the horsepower increases then so do the width of the tires which just get wider and wider ...

dom

Thats the reveiw I was thinking of. But I also remember reading about it in the forums. Maybe it was at A-TL.

Either way, I'm sure you can find a way to live with with the tourque steer. Probly just a matter of driving style which takes time to perfect.

Dan Martin

Torque steer is not the end of the world. It just requires more steering effort when exiting a turn under heavy throttle.

MarkPinTx

Regarding the torque steer, I would think that an automatic would damp a bit of it out with the torque converter and the resulting less-rigid connection between crank and wheels. Not precisely a hp issue, but a hp @ wheels issue, which is probably what you're saying anyway

ClutchPerformer

But we all know that C&D hates any and all FWD cars. It's like an office full of Gilbos reviewing cars. Oooh... that's a scary thought.

dom

The very thought of that gives me nightmares

But in C&D's defense. Its still the best mag of the big 3 and BMW's have been finnishing well down the list in recent comparison tests.

I think I'm done with buying R&T. That mag is getting unbelievably bad.

sveet

I have driven many cars with torque steer, and although you can be ready for it, IT will always suck.

Corrective steering during acceleration should be something left to the Chevette's of the past.

SilverCL225hp

I don't like to read car comparison reports from owner of the vehicle that is one of the cars being compared because biased comments are almost inevitable. My answer to this thread is very simple, I do not own either TSX or TL, and I would choose TSX over TL in a heartbeat with no further hesitation. TL is just not good enough to turn me on more than my G35 sedan, when I think TSX has something that G35 sedan doesn't have.

Nicodemus

Could you possibly be a little more specific?

Thanks to everyone that's given me their input. I really appreciate all the help.

ostrich

Thanks, NeuronBob! That was quite a review/comparison and I really appreciate it.

It's funny that we're both in the same city and the same age too! Whereas you're a bit younger for the typical TL profile, I probably am a bit too old for the TSX profile! LOL! Financially I should would have fitted in the TL profile :-)

Anyway, you really made me want to trade in my TSX for a TL now! LOL! From my standpoint, there are 3 things that the TSX does a better job than the TL:

1. Fuel efficiency - like Nicodemus pointed out, with these ridiculous gas prices, a difference of several miles per gallon does make a difference.

2. Sportier handling

3. The fold-down rear seats! Recently, the fold-down rear seats really saved me - the hibiscus tree I bought from the nursery fitted just right through the folded down rear seats! LOL! I also bought a metal bed frame recently and I had to fold down the rear seats to fit that in too. If I had the TL, I would have been stuck... I know I said this before, if the TL had fold-down rear seats when I was looking for a car, I would have gone for it instead of the TSX...

I guess I just have to look forward to the hybrid TL with Super Handling! LOL!

neuronbob

I barely notice the torque steer on my 5AT TL. It's simply a non-issue. If you've driven a new Maxima, you would find LOTS of torque steer in comparison to the TL. You are absolutely correct, and I would have pointed to the same C & D review of the 6MT.

neuronbob

Well, it is true that anyone who owns a car tries to justify their purchase. However, I'm enough of a car nut to try other cars--in my case, the TSX, which wasn't even on my radar when I was looking for a car the last time. It probably should have been.

ostrich--you and nicodemus are right, a few bucks each fillup adds up over time. However, I got the same mileage on my 2G TL, so I'm already used to paying high prices for premium; it's in my budget. And damn, I wish I had fold down seats in my TL. This was a problem in the 2G TL, too. Acura offers the lame excuse of "maintenance of rigidity" as the reason for this omission.

sauceman

That's pretty lame indeed. I believe TSX is an example in rigidity, and we have the fold-down seats

majin ssj eric

If you are this worried about a few extra bucks a month at the pump, you probably don't need to be buying a brand new $30,000 car in the first place......

dom

X 1,000

biker

The savings become a bit more noticeable when you are talking about European gas prices ($5/gal).