gsrthomas

Your insurance company needs to duke it out with your dealer. Tell them to take it to a different dealer see what they say.

Nonetheless dont give the dealer a dime!!

Its either your insurance company or the dealer that is lying. I'm pretty sure the dealer is because they are known for this.

mrdeeno

I don't know what you mean by that, but I used to work in the insurance industry, and most people don't have full coverage...even people who lease/finance their cars (even though they are supposed to).

What i mean by "decent" is that if there is a total loss, the loss will be significant to the driver, so of course you will have full coverage on your '06 TSX, paid off or not.

jwhite4

A lot of posters suggested taking it to another Acura (or independent) dealer, but from the initial descripion, my assumption was that the engine was still partially apart. To me it didn't sound like it was driveable as-is. It also gets complicated if you want to tow an already-unassembled car to another dealer.

Jeff

Santacruz

My wife contacted the other Acura dealership here in NH and they don't want to get involved because they're worried about getting pulled into any litigation (Another shining exaxmple of Acura customer service). BTW I just heard from Progressive and they talked with the GM of the Acura dealership and they said that the dealership has no proof that hydrolock occured and they're not covering the repair.

joerockt

If they have no proof of the hydrolock, then it was a mechanical falure. So how could they not cover this under warranty? And even if it is covered under warranty, the dealer would get reimbursed for the work right?

Have you called Acura Customer Care?

What is it about your car that their so adamant about refusing to do the work? You still havent answered that...

Also, you first said the dealer had proof of the hydrolock, now they deny to progressive they have proof? WTF is going on? I'd be LIVID with the dealer right now...

sauceman

But do you have that comprehensive repair clause in your insurance contract?

They should definitely work it out between themselves, but it's too easy for both to say, "since the other party doesn't want to recognise they're at fault, I'm sorry, but I can't do anything more for you."

Santacruz

I do have a comprehensive repair clause for water damage.

To be honest I expected to get crap from my insurance company, just because I think the insurance industry is a bit sleezy, but I never worried about getting bad customer service from Acura. I always thought that if there was an issue with any Acura vehicle that they would take care of me.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Which is why things don't add up. There's got to be some detail that is missing in this whole thing because there is no reason the Acura dealer would deny you service unless they had a damn good reason. As a couple of us have asked, is there any point in recent history that you may have done something that would be out of the ordinary such as over-revving the motor?

Santacruz

I have contacted Acura Customer Care. They told me that the regional rep. has decided that it isn't a warranty repair issue.

The regional rep. even left me a voice mail message and said that he looked at the car, and looked over the techs. notes, and based on what he's seen this isn't a warranty issue. He even suggested that I authorize the dealer to perform a furthur teardown, at my expense, to be certain. The only thing that Acura keeps saying is that based on the symptoms ( bent valves, skipped timing chain, dirt in the airfilter) this is a hydrolock problem. BTW the timing chain skipped nine teeth!!

I wish I understood why Acura doesn't want to repair my car. Maybe it's because they can't believe that this could happen to one of their cars. Maybe they're just as surprised as I am? I've owned 3 Honda/Acura autos and was half a year from replacing my CRV and couldn't wait to look at the newest line-up. But I gotta' tell you I think I'm off the Honda wagon.

Santacruz

As painfull as this may be for you to believe mis-shift/over-rev just didn't happen.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Did you drive through any standing water during the last few days?

There has to be a reason that the dealer is seeing hydrolock symptoms. It doesn't just happen. Is your car parked out in the open or is it garaged?

Have you guys in NH been seeing the rains that the rest of the mid-Atlantic and New England have been getting?

mrdeeno

The thing I don't understand is why Progressive considers themselves the "experts" on Acura's engine, even when Acura says that it's a hydrolock problem.

Whether it is obvious hydrolock or not (and it appears not to be obvious), Progressive should be going by what the "experts" in this case tell them...that it's hydrolock. And I think the "experts" should be backing you up that it's hydrolock and get Progressive to pay out.

Something here is wrong, and neither party is willing to look deeper into it and work it out and agree what the problem is...it's either hydrolock or it's a warranty problem (i can't think of any thing else except abuse, but then the dealer would've been screaming that right off the bat rather than claiming hydrolock). Lack of communication between Acura and Progressive?

drunkenbuda

WoW, i'm sorry to hear that. How many miles you got on your ride?

sauceman

Sure does look like a hydrolock to me. As I explained, it is possible for it to happen. Remote, but not impossible. Even if you drove with it after it happenned. The hydrolock in itself may have not caused the timing chain to skip, but may well have bent a valve or two, they could have failed later on and further damaged the engine. I'm just surprised there doesn't seem to be lower engine damage. That's almost impossible with the scheme of things we're contemplating.

But the whole point of this is it's no wonder Acura doesn't consider hydrolock as a warranty issue. No manufacturer in their right mind would warrant their engine against this event.

IMO, the insurer should pay to have things investigated further on, but if they insure you for comprehensive repair, they should just pay up. If they can't take Acura's word for it, I don't know who they'll believe.

Maybe you should tone it up with Progressive.

mickey513

Replacing a whole TSX engine don't even cost $14k...........better pull the LUBE out.

Alin10123

Hmm... why did she tell them what's going on? She should've just had them look at it and ask them to repair it under warranty. If they repair it, then great. Problem solved. If they also say it was hydrolocked... then at least you've got a 2nd opinion.

STL

I just don't see how it can be a hydrolock issue without him knowing how it happened. I drove my Civic through some deep water (that I no busines trying to cross) more than a couple times, and I never had a problem. I kept the car 8+ year after those incidents happened to. A stock intake in the TSX just isn't going to suck up water without the driver knowing about it (because it'd have to be in some deep water for some time) -- a big splash water isn't going to make that happen.

Like I said before, you need to ask Acura for their reponse and reason in writing. Many times people will say things and make claims verbally that they wouldn't do in writing.

sauceman

You won't necessarily hydrolock with a single big splash, but you can with successive splashes. The cylinders can suck in some water to a certain extent, but when it's to the point where it doesn't all vaporize in a single powerstroke, you're doomed. More water will be added in the next stroke and at some point you stall.

When that happenned with my car, I could still crank it and I eventually restarted it. You should have seen the cloud of steam. I swear there was about as much steam coming out of the exhaust as there is smoke when an F1 engine blows up.

But the damage had been done, and the clock started ticking (literally for the valves) from then on.

SoCaliTrojan

Well you know how the mystery books play out...the wife, err, butler did it ;-) Jk

I agree with the others who say that something must have been unintentionally done (or performed while someone else was driving the vehicle).

Out of all the Acura vehicles on the road, OP thinks Acura and Progressive are out to get him. This isn't a mystery. There's the evidence (valves, timing chain, etc.) Based on the evidence, only a few possible causes can exist. How many miles are on the car? (massive mileage without timing chain replacement? Or very aggressive driving?) If you don't believe it's hydrolocked, then do your research and find out what else could have caused the symptoms. All engines basically work in the same fashion.

In response to Progressive's claim:
- Doesn't rust take a while to form?
- Water in oil is usually a sign of cracked head/block/blown gasket. Just because there isn't water in the oil doesn't mean it wasn't hydrolocked...maybe you had a good piston ring seal =P
- Water can reach the stock air filter in certain situations...it would only be a sign that you drove in the rain.

Maybe something else got into the cylinder...like oil? Oil is like water in which it won't compress.

Sure, bent/thrown rods happen when hydrolocked, but I think the engine has to be running while it happens.

Or who knows, maybe it's simply a case of a timing chain slip. For a chain to jump teeth, it would have had to have so much slack (in which case something else would have been more likely, like a faulty timing chain). I would have thought that a slipping timing chain would have been noisy for a while before this happened...

Santacruz

No standing water.

The dealer says that the only way the valves could've bent is through hydrolock. They said timing chains just don't just slip (BTW it slipped nine teeth). They say this despite the service bulletin that was issued by Acura for loose timing chains and pre-tensioners in the 2004 TSX.

It's been raining a lot here in NH but no flood type rain where I live.

It's parked in the open.

Santacruz

BTW. Here's a service bulletin that Progressive found about the TSX on the NHTSA website.

Technical Service Bulletins Summary

Make: ACURA
Model: TSX
Year: 2004
Type: PASSENGER CAR
Service Bulletin Number: 090105
NHTSA Item Number: 10018108
Summary Description:
A LOOSE TIMING CHAIN, A DEFECTIVE AUTO TENSIONER, A LOOSE TIMING CHAIN SPROCKET, LOW ENGINE OIL PRESSURE OR A MOMENTARILY SEIZED CAMSHAFT CAN CAUSE AN INTERMITTENT DTC. *JB

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Have you taken that TSB to the dealership and shown them? Also, you might want to remind them that it's been raining pretty heavily lately and that dirt in the intake air filter might be from some water getting into the intake through the snorkel behind the front grille.

bradykp

most people who don't outright own the car (i.e. they have a loan), have to have comprehensive as per their lender, and that's a lot of people. it's the ones with the old beaters that don't have the coverage.

pttl

Santacruz

I believe what you have posted above IS YOUR ANSWER.
When was the TSB issued?
Were you, as an Acura owner, notified of the TSB?
If so - Did you have the service performed?

If the TSB came out, and YOU were NOT notified that there was a potential problem with your TSX - You have a case.
If you WERE notified, but didn't have the TSB service done......not so good.

The slipped timing chain will cause all of the dammage mentioned.

You said that the dealer has no proof of a hydro-lock - That's probably because the timing chaing slipped causing your dammage.

Lawyer!

bradykp

my insurance company required me to put what was required by my lender. that's standard from what i've seen, so people who finance have no choice.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

TSB =/= recall

TSB are bulletins to service technicians making them aware of how to make repairs should they come across a particular situation.

bradykp

i agree that there has to be details missing in the story. the bottom line is, the insurance company can't just ignore what acura says.

if you got another mechanic to look at it and tell you what's wrong, would that satisfy the insurance company? it sounds like acura is right, and progressive is wrong. either way, i'd be getting a lawyer at this point, or you're screwed.

if acura dealer will put in writing that it is caused by hydrolock, why does progressive have a problem with that assessment? who looked at it for them?

pttl

OH! Well, in that case, it seems to me that this would go infavor of Santacruz. If there is a known problem on 04 TSXs, and a catastrophic failure occurs due to the known problem, Santacruz has a pretty strong leg to stand on. No?

I just HATE it when HUGE companies try to completely hose the little ol' consumer.

joerockt

Read his posts. He already said that the dealer has no proof of hydrolock.

And this guy STILL isnt answering if his car is stock or modded.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Again, this is not what you think. Even a single isolated incident can sometimes be enough to trigger a TSB. TSBs are issued not only in cases of repeated problems, but also when unique problems come up that do not appear common and require a unique solution.

Also, that TSB is primarily pointing to items that could trigger a DTC. This suggests that the TSB is notifying to the service technician that he should exam all the listed items along with his usual checklist when the DTC in question appears.

bradykp

he said the dealer hasn't offered proof. my point is, the poster seems to be leaving out a lot of details. look at everyone's responses, just questions mostly. not accusing the OP of not telling the truth, but he's in an emotional position, maybe he's leaving out objective details that would help describe the entire story.

the dealer has to offer proof of hydrolock, if they can't, then how to they come to that diagnosis?

their proof was the dirt in the air filter, and the other items he mentioned (too lazy to go back and read at the moment). so he needs to get this in writing, and bang.....proof. then his insurance company HAS to honor that claim. plain and simple.

mrdeeno

That may be "a lot" of people, as you said, but that's not most. There are more USED cars on the streets that are paid off than there are newly bought and financed cars.

Again, MOST people DON'T have full coverage. Most people who finance their cars may have full coverage, but MOST people overall don't.


Sure they have a choice. The finance company requires that a financed/leased car have full coverage, but I have seen MANY people who after initially getting the car and insuring it, later drop full coverage for the minimum liability. The insurance company usually isn't required to inform the finance company unless they ask for proof. I have also seen people outright CANCEL their policy even if their car is still financed. The only time the insurance company HAS to inform anyone of policy changes is that if the insured is cancelled by the company due to non-payment or another reason...but this is not required if the insured cancels the policy himself.

Dan Martin

This should be an easy case for a lawyer to settle. A couple well-worded letters and everything will get sorted out.


You should be going after Progressive, not your dealer. Your obligation is to go to the dealer to have the problem diagnosed, which you did. The dealer can either repair the car under warranty or your insurance can pay for the repair if the warranty doesn't cover the damage.

Progressive can deal with the dealer if they don't agree with the diagnosis, but in the mean time, your car needs to be repaired. They can fight each other for the money afterwards, but either way, there's no scenario that would leave you uncovered.

gsrthomas

The reason why there are bent valves is because the timing chain skipped all those teeth not because of hydrolock! It only takes one tooth off to bend valves on honda engines.

If you are 100% certain that there was no hydrolock, havent driven in 2+ feet deep water with no cai. I would pursue legal advice against the dealership.

Dan Martin

He's paying progressive for comprehensive coverage, so there's no reason to go after the dealership. Progressive can sue the dealer if they don't agree with the diagnosis, but at this point the OP has done everything he needs to do to on his end.

I still recommend he gets in touch with a lawyer, because getting legal advice from a car forum is a dumb idea.

bradykp

i guess this is true, but those are some pretty sheisty people then. my credit union requires proof of insurance (ongoing, when the old card expires), so i guess my bank is just smarter than the ones you have experience with?

bradykp

agreed.

most insurance companies will fix the car, then go after the responsible parties. if you have comprehensive, then there is no reason why you shouldn't be covered, if a mechanic says it was hydrolock, then why does progressive not honor that?

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Did the dealer inspect the timing chain tensioner and related components for defects? It could be a freak mechanical failure.

Santacruz

AGAIN...MY CAR IS STOCK!

STL

So are you working on getting Acura's words in writing?