mrdeeno

Sorry to everyone for being OT...

When i worked for an insurance agency, out of the thousands of policies with financed vehicles, only a handful of banks ever called to get insurance information after the car was already purchased. Granted, these people HAD full coverage when they bought the car, but then shortly after recieving it they come in and cancel the full coverage.

Same as when they cancel their policy. it's not the insurance company's job to inform the bank that the customer cancelled their own policy or made changes. We have to have a certain "faith" in the customer that they know what they are doing and that they are expected to meet all requirements set forth by laws and/or their finance company...even when we know they are probably being "shifty".

Your credit union may have the manpower to keep track of all the loans and follow up with insurance requirements and what not, but think of how many leases and loans Honda Financial or some large bank has. I'm sure they don't have the manpower to be able to follow all the loans of these banks and even if they did, they don't have the manpower to enforce them...bottom line usually is that if they are receiving the monthly loan payments, they are satisfied.

bradykp

my credit union is a small local company. but like any any bank, they exchange information electronically. which would make this process simple.

the larger the bank, the easier it is.

i'm sure Insurance companies probably do some sort of electronic data sharing such as EDI, and almost every bank does. no matter what size bank you are, there are so many federal regulations and controls in place to ensure certain things are happening, so this would be a relatively easy think for a bank to do. and if you require your customer to send a copy of their insurance card every year (When it expirers, since they get the first one, they would know when that is), it's a relatively burdenless task.

if it really is happening the way you say it is, which i wouldn't doubt, then there's something wrong with the laws in place, and a simple solution to the problem of so many people driving without proper insurance.

mrdeeno

I know what you are saying, but the difficulties are that every insurance company and every bank operates with their own chosen systems and procedures. There are no electronic data "standards" that these companies have to go by, and it would be really difficult to an insurance agency to "match" system compatibilities with every banking system (credit unions, auto financers, large banks, etc.) out there, and difficult for banks to match their systems to each and every insurance companies.

As for creating standards, do you know how difficult that is? Politics get involved...you have a bunch of people who claim invasion of privacy on one side, then you have the banking and insurance industry with powerful lobbyists on the other, and they are already pissed about the amount of reguulation out there and don't want to spend any more money than they have to to upgrade their systems.

The responsibility falls on consumers, as it should. The only problem with that is that there are many consumers that don't have a problem with cheating the system to save (or make) a couple bucks...how many billion was wasted on fraudulent Katrina spending because of dishonesty?

I have been in 2 not-my-fault accidents since I started driving...one in my car, one on my motorcycle...neither person at fault had insurance. there are more drivers and cars out there that are underinsured or not insured at all than you think.

bradykp

there's companies out there that handle this one. i actually worked on an audit of one. they simply take the form....say a form from all state. it has claim information on it. they convert it to electronic data, and prepare it for import to whatever the system is. it's a very simple process. sounds expensive? it's a few cents per document, plus implementation fees. it's an amazing process. most companies use the same or similar systems, as the markets are dominated by certain systems. and anyways, we're just talking about raw data here. an insurance card that verifies a person has insurance being sent to a bank....could be a fax.

all it would take is the insurer to have the insuree's bank name on file. could hire some high school kid to do it at $5.15/hr

mrdeeno

first, for every policy, there are hundreds of pages of documents. Then there are the changes that policy makers make...change of address, change of balance everytime they pay, change of cars, change of coverage, etc. And multiply this by every policy holder...millions and millions of them. a couple cents per page is pretty damn expensive. Not only that, with all the changes to policies, by the time it's in the system, it's probably outdated anyway. And they'd need a whole department of employees just to implement this...it's more expensive than you think, and guess who's going to be paying for this? We are...and we already complain about how expensive insurance is.

2nd, what benefit is this to the insurance company? If the insured cancels his policy, they no longer make any money from this guy...why should they spend more money to research whether he got new insurance or not? If he crashes, the insurance company doesn't lose a dime since the guy isn't paying them anymore anyway. Why should they invest in money to "snitch" on him when they would get nothing out of it anyway?

3rd, if someone with a loan cancels his registration, cancels his insurance, and parks his car because he is leaving for the military or something, but he continues to pay for the car, what can the bank do? Can they call him up and use harsh language? If he doesn't pay his loan, they can repo the car...but as long as he pays, they can't follow him around and make sure he's not driving his car. There are millions of reasons to cancel your insurance that are totally legal. The bank doesn't have the resources to follow every person with a loan to make sure they are staying "within" the requirements.

Think of it this way...the law says if you kill someone, you will be punished. No one is following you around making sure you don't kill, but if you do, and you get caught, then you will be punished. It's YOUR responsibility to risk the punishment or not.

Same with insurance...it's YOUR responsibility to meet the requirements of law and what the bank says. No one is following you around making sure you pay your bill on time or making sure you have the required coverage. If you DO drop your insurance or lower it below requirements, THEN you get caught, then they could employ "punishment" either by putting their own (more expensive) insurance on it, or disqualify your loan and make you pay it all at once, or whatever. Worse case, you cancelled your insurance and totalled your car, then you now owe the guy you hit, you owe your bank, you owe on tickets for no insurance, and you have no car.

But in conclusion, it's YOUR responsibility to risk the consequences or not.

el chile grande

Ding Ding Ding! Save the voicemail the Acura regional rep left you saying they have no proof of Hydrolock. Get it in writing also. Have them fax it to Progressive & CC you through email or fax also. Advise progressive you expect a repair unless they can show you in your policy where it specifically explains their position, on why they can't cover you. You may also want to ask the dealer if they are already charging you a daily fee for your car sitting on their premises after they have already given you a diagnosis. That would suck! Good luck bro.

bradykp

the only problem with this logic is you forget how much it ends up affecting other people. when things affect others, there's usually more enforcement. like the SEC. it's the entire reason why audits exist. i was just pointing out it'd be nice if there was some sort of way for the companies to report on whether or not people maintained their insurance. relax man. and, it's not like you'd need every document (the hundreds of pages), you'd just need a summary sheet. i know it's complicated, but it wouldn't have to be as complicated as you're making it sound. Insurance fraud and abuse will continue because people are continuously allowed to drive without insurance, i know it's the person's responsibility, but it'd be nice if there was a bit more that could be done.

bradykp

yeah man, stick it to the insurance company. the dealer doesn't sound like the bad guy here. it'd be nice if acura would do more for you, but it's really your insurance company. damn companies, all they want is your money, god forbid they have to actually pay out every now and then.

gsrthomas

So whats the news, is the insurance paying for it or what?? New motor? rebuilt? New heads? Long block, short block, etc

Santacruz

I tried to get the car towed to another dealer on Friday and at first the service guy said he'd be glad to take a look at it for me. Then, after I arranged to have my car towed to his dealership, I got a call from him saying that he couldn't take it because he contacted the Honda rep and the rep said he wouldn't entertain another opinion and if the new dealership tried to submit another warranty claim they'd be in trouble.

Saturday I found a shop that just replaced an engine in hydrolocked 2004 TSX and I asked them to look at my car. They've got it now and I'm waiting to hear back. (BTW the dealership that had my car just piled all the engine parts in the trunck of my car...thanks!). The cost for the engine replacement for the other TSX was $5000. I don't know where the dealer got $14,000.

I've got the written statement from the dealerrship GM that describes why they feel it's hydrolock (I'll try to get it scanned so you can read it for yourself). In the meantime here are their main reasons for suspecting hydrolock:

- Found intake camshaft gear jumped 7 teeth.
- Moisture visible when inspecting visually inside throttle body
- All four rotors severely rusted
- RLF wheel siezed
- Underside of vehicle is rusted
- Air filter plugged with road debris
- Silt under hood
- Water dripping from flange Joint and converter

Santacruz

...oh and I forgot to include that the dealership also said they inspected the timing chain and the pre-tensioner and both were ok.

The interesting thing about that is they didn't mention any of that until after my insuranc company called them to talk about their findings.

bradykp

so it sounds like you shouldnt have a problem forcing your insurance to cover it.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Whoa there? Silt under the hood? Underside of the vehicle rusted? Are you sure you didn't drive through an enormous puddle right before the car stopped working? That seems like a lot more damage than rain alone could have done.

bradykp

have you attempted to clean the engine bay at all?

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Yes, but there shouldn't be "silt" under the hood. A little bit of dirt is to be expected, but when they say silt, I'm imagining a layer of dirt, which could only have happened driving through a large puddle of mud. Plus, the way the under tray on the TSX is designed is to prevent the large majority of spray from reaching the upper areas of the engine bay. Just seems odd to me.

Santacruz

No! The silt that they are referring to is one small patch of dirt (about 3 inches in length and 1 inch wide) that was on the back of the engine. All the dirt in the airfilter, undercarriage and anywhere else is undoubtable from an area of construction between my home and work that I, and thousands of other commuters, have been forced to travel through for the past year. (I already talked to the dealer about it and they still think it's from a pond.). The undercarriage isn't rusted, it's covered in dirt.

The wheel that they say was locked wasn't locked when it was loaded onto the flatbed. If it was locked, it became locked at their dealership.

For the last time, no enormous puddles!!

acn684

yeah, this is definately odd. sounds more like there was a lot to be done with the car that wasn't- ie. maintence. Clogged air filters? debris? silt? This doesn't sound like typical rain related issues. even heavy rain related issues.. the dealership is arguing agaisnt warrenty due to non-warranty related issues. and the insurance isn't covering you probably because it seems like mis-treatment of the car. If you really never done anything to the car and nothing ever happened to it, then thats just odd and taht sucks u got in this situation. But if you're leaving some parts out that we don't know, then you're just trying to convince youreself you had done nothing to the car, in either case wouldn't help you one bit.

Santacruz

This is all external stuff. The insurance company said they've found no evidence of water or debris inside the engine. They even had the oil tested for water. The airfilter shows no signs of water stain or streaking nor debris on the inside of the filter.

bradykp

very good point, i didnt think of that. i was just wondering about all the rust if he thinks he didnt drive through water.

bradykp

well, i live in new jersey, right near manhattan, and i can literally see the pollution pile up on cars parked on the streets. not to mention the construction that is going on everywhere (Roads being rebuilt/repaved, hoboken with all the buildings going up). i dont think construction could have contributed too much to this.

bradykp

so the insurance company found no evidence of water, but the dealership says it's severely rusted? did you look at it?

something is still not adding up here.

Santacruz

Dude! I doubt Manhatten has ever left a two miles stretch of unpaved roadway open for over a year. I'm talking about a two lane dirt road here, not a repaving job! The undercarriage of the rental I had was completely covered in dirt after two weeks.

Santacruz

The only rust I have is on the brake rotors. Not unimaginable if your car hasn't been used for four weeks! The undercarriage isn't rusted it's cover with dirt. And besides, if water has caused the undercarriage of my car to rust then the TSX is a total piece of crap. A puddle wouldn't cause the bottom of a car to rust!!

CCColtsicehockey

ok I read the whole thing so far and I am gonna say how about you post some pictures of the car in its current state for us.

SoCaliTrojan

Since you had to drive past a construction site for an entire year, how did that change your maintenance cycle? Did you figure that you need to maintain it more often due to irregular conditions?

GSI

That sucks. Hope you get this settled.

AlterZgo

Curls is right. The loss has to be accidental in nature. There are specific exclusions for mechanical breakdown or failure. For example, if someone doesn't maintain their car or change the oil and it overheats and the engine dies, this is not a covered loss because it is mechanical breakdown. However, if a rock punctures the radiator and the car overheats and engine seizes, this IS covered as it was the accidental damage from the rock that caused the resulting engine damage.

Santacruz

I just spoke with the repair shop that towed my car. I've told them the entire story and they say that they can't see any signs of the car being damaged by hydrolock. Plus, it sounds like the dealer did more of a teardown on my car since the adjuster looked at it and they've got all kinds of crap off my car, including the timing chain!! (BTW the repair shop repaired another 2004 TSX that was hydrolocked and the rod was thrown through the block). They also said that they can't believe the dealer just piled the parts into the trunk of my car.

Anyway, the repair shop says if they got the car first that they probably would have just recommended replacing the head but because the engine is so torndown and because they don't know if anything is missing, it would probably cost as much to replace the engine as it would to rebuild it. (est. $5,000 to $6,000 NOT $14,000).

At this point I'm thinking that the dealership was trying to get money out of Progressive, anyone else?

LuvMyTSX

Damn, what a mess. Hope it works out.

gsrthomas

So now is your insurance company covering it since the dealer wont budge on their word?

gsrthomas

Dealerships always try to get money.

My dad owns a repair shop, been in business for 20 years.

Last year my dads friend friend. Took his 2001 Honda CRV to the Honda Dealer. (forgot what the reason was). The dealership took out the Cylinder Head from the engine. After the dealership took nearly apart half the engine the dealer says the engine is not fixable and needs a new engine. Owner of the CRV was all wtf..

So then my friend recommends my dads shop. He tells the Honda Dealer fawk off. Tows the car to my dads shop (engine half apart). My dad takes the Cylinder Head to a Machine Shop for a leak-down test, resurfacing, valve job, etc Cylinder Head comes back okay from the Machine Shop. My dad puts everything back together.

And WAALAA engine runs like new.

Yes DEALERSHIPS are Scum.

Never took my car for service at ANY dealer and never will.

Ronin317

I just wanted to chime in here with a similar piece - as I have mentioned before, I had an '03 Trailblazer that I loved dearly, but was destined to die before it's time because of a shoddy transmission. Well...at around 43k miles, the tranny was just shot. I had no second or fourth gear...and the second gear was ground into pieces. This is just from normal driving...

So, I take it to the dealer...my factory warranty was 3k out, so my extended (Wynn's) warranty kicked in. This is where the problems began - Upon taking apart my transmission, they found that the valves were rusted open, and the transmission was rusted from the inside out. I have never driven anywhere but on highway and paved roads with this thing, it's never been in a flood, nothing of the sort - I papmered and babied this truck...well, I was told that since the damage was "user caused" that they wouldn't cover it. I went ballistic - so Wynn's sent out an adjuster to take a look at the vehicle - he concluded that it had never been off-road, so they'd cover the transmission. The dealer puts in a rebuilt transmission with a 70k warranty, but didn't replace the valves that feed it - they only 'cleaned them' and the new tranny lasted - wait for it - 482 miles before it seized up, due to failure of the valves. Taking it back to the dealer, they once again started the "well, there's rust flakes in your transmission fluid - have you been off road with this vehicle?" shit again...not 2 weeks after we had been through all this the first time. After much arguing, sitting with service managers, the dealer vp and eventually the owner, I got this all straightened out - and they put in a whole new assembly...the dealership, despite having the vehicle for 2 full weeks (which they gave me a loaner - an 01 intrigue with a dash that had a broken mount - so it swayed when i made right turns - yes the whole dash...) they can't figure out why or how water would ever get into the transmission - the seal is good, no holes in any part of the assembly, nothing. yet, just as the first 2, there was water in there. I noticed the second gear starting to slip YET AGAIN 6 months later, and had the transmission pan dropped - guess what? water droplets - no rust yet, just water. They rebuilt part of the valve body again, and virtually gauranteed that there would be no water this time. I traded it in 2 weeks later. I had had enough of the warranty company, the gm parts, and the tranny. The dealership was quite crappy through it, despite the service desk clerk being very nice and helpful (the best advice she gave was on a "follow me, I'm going to step outside and have a smoke" where she said "come here tomorrow morning, sit in the service managers office and get him before he takes his coat off, before he can have his coffee, and give him hell for all this - you'll get whatever you want and then some." and I did.).

So my advice, although now useless, is to go to the dealership, even if it means taking an early day or whatever from work, and get in people's faces (without making a scene- the last resort). They love telling you crap on the phone, but when you're sitting in front of them FUMING but controlled, almost everyone except for the hardest of the hardasses will back off.

curls

That's awesome.

I'd have written her a ton of service compliments or acclamations and heck, even told the manager that "She was the only one here that seemed to give a fuck about my situation. Everyone else should be ashamed of themselves"

Good to hear you got out of that mess, though. Hopefully the OP can get some good results here, too.

JediMindTricks

any updates?

lancer

what happened?

TallestTSX

Heh, right. Because every other insurance company does you favors. I'm not saying the guy shouldn't have told you to save your stuff, but just get the best deal you can from anyone, and/or work with a specific agent that you trust.

bradykp

TallestTSX

^^^ Thanks.

Also, wanted to add a comment to the guy that said he would never take his car to a dealer because they're scum and his dad owned a shop for 20 years...

Great, you have a DAD that owns a shop, so obviously you can trust him. To the other 99% of the world, we can't trust ANYONE. Dealers are just as sure to screw you as a shady mom-and-pop store. How does the average joe tell the difference between a good one and a bad one?

bradykp

i dropped off my car yesterday for a warranty issue (sunroof is not right, there's a thread on it if you're interested just search). anyways, the guy says "oh, you're at 11,000 miles, you should schedule your oil change and service" so i said, well, i'm gonna do the oil change myself this time.

then, i was thinking...why did he recommend that i do an oil change? so i asked.

service guy:"well, acura recommends changing the oil every 5,000 miles"
me: "oh really? what are your feelings on the MID service notifications?"
service guy: "what is the MID?"
me: "you know, the maintenence minder that the car has, tells you when you need to go to service? also, doesn't the manual recommend every 7,500 miles?"
service guy: "well, you should listen to the maintenence minder, its all based on how you drive, but we recommend 5,000 miles just to be safe"



so what is it, we recommend? or acura recommends?

i think he was just trying to make an extra $150 for the service department for the day.


so then he asks if there's anything else, so i told him about the rattle from the center console, even though it doesnt bother me, i figured, make them spend more $$ in labor since they tried to screw me out of $150.

and did you guys know....acura labor in nj = $110/hr
honda labor = $80/hr

acura oil filter (honda oil filter at the acura dealership) = $8
honda oil filter at honda = $6

washer at acura = $0.30
washer at honda = didn't charge me for it.

cambo

did u not know that Acura parts are more than honda parts even though they are the same part?

Every car company does it. Mark up the Lux brand parts more than the "regular" brand parts. Its simple economics really. They can do it because most lux car owners are not very price averse over a couple of bucks.

As for the oil change recommendation of 5000 miles instead of 7500 miles, thats just old mantra. Remember when the usual recommendation was change your oil every 3000 miles? Old habits are hard to break, old myths are even harder to break.