Santacruz

I never thought it was possible to buy an Acura, insure it through Progressive, and have a $14,000 repair be my responsibility!! It can happen to you too. If Acura deems any damage to be water related and Progressive disagrees with them, you'll find yourself in exactly that situation, stuck between a useless corporate warranty and self-serving insurance policy. Oh, and don't expect any help from the dealer because they're only concerned with who will be paying them for repairs! Forget all the rhetoric about customer care and platinum service standards.

If you're considering purchasing a TSX or Progressive insurance and your doing it under the pretense of high mechanical or service reliability, THINK AGAIN!!

AamirCWITR

well, what happened?

cibs

ya some more info would be great... otherwise this thread is meaningless...

waTSX

Santacruz

My car wouldn't start. The dealer said that they have evidence that it's hydrolocked. I paid the dealer to open the engine so that Progressive could look at it. Progressive looked at it and said the bent valves are a result of a timing chain failure and there is no evidence of the engine ingesting water (no rust in the engine block, no streaking in the airfilter, no water in the oil). Acura looked at it and said the timing failed because it ingested water. The dealer said "...it's $14,000 to repair and would you like to pay with cash, credit, or debit? And by the way, we need the loaner back soon."

waTSX

Sounds to me like you have a case. If there's no evidence of water damage, pursue it until you get satisfaction.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

So what might have caused the engine to be exposed to water? Especially enough water that it would cause something like a timing chain to fail?

If the car was never exposed to water, and the dealership can't prove it, then your first call should be to Acura's Regional Customer Care office to tell them that the dealer is trying to screw you.

Santacruz

according to all sources ...driving through a pond or a puddle that submerged the air intake.

AChangeOfSeasons

So.....tell us.

Where were you when the engine died?
Did you drive through such a puddle/pond?

Still need more details.

Sucks that the ride is dead, though.

curls

Hydrolock will cause bent RODS a lot more often than bent valves. If there are no bent rods I'd be very suspicious about their "hydrolock" determination.

btw, timing chain and a few new valves isn't $14,000 worth of repairs.

Heck you can get a new engine for $5K and drop it in yourself or have Progressive pay for it over the $14K repairs.

JTso

iTrader: (2)

So, you drove the car through a puddle of water deep enough to submerge the air filter? By any chance that you have over-reved the engine? mis-shfited?

Santacruz

Let's be clear about one thing. The car wasn't in a puddle or a pond. I drove it home from work (10 miles), shut it off, tried to start it the next day and couldn't.

From what I understand, a hydrolock situation would stop a car dead. I wouldn't have driven it home, I would have pushed it.

Progressive and Acura both say there are bent valves. Progressive says that's all that is wrong. Acura says they won't rebuild the cylinder head because the lower part of the engine is probably damaged and they'll just have to fix it again.

I don't understand the $14,000 either. When I first asked what the potential cost was the price ranged from $2,000 to repair the valves to $8,000 for a new engine.

IlliNorge

Progressive is usually pretty liberal in their payouts. For them to say it should be covered by warranty is pretty solid info. The dealer needs to find evidence that you drove into a lake before voiding a warranty. The $14k is outrageous and undermines their credibility. Not good.

Unless you did drive into a lake???

JTso

iTrader: (2)

Do you have a CAI? If not, it's kiind of hard to hydrolock the engine with the stock intake if your area is not flooded. But did you mis-shift or over-rev though?

Santacruz

I wish I did! Progressive would cover that!!

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

with JTso...

Have you done anything in recent memory that would result in bent valves?

Santacruz

No CAI. Lot's of rain in the area. No mis-shift/over-rev.

BTW. Here's a service bulletin that Progressive found about the TSX on the NHTSA website.

Technical Service Bulletins Summary

Make: ACURA
Model: TSX
Year: 2004
Type: PASSENGER CAR
Service Bulletin Number: 090105
NHTSA Item Number: 10018108
Summary Description:
A LOOSE TIMING CHAIN, A DEFECTIVE AUTO TENSIONER, A LOOSE TIMING CHAIN SPROCKET, LOW ENGINE OIL PRESSURE OR A MOMENTARILY SEIZED CAMSHAFT CAN CAUSE AN INTERMITTENT DTC. *JB

xizor

As suggested I would bypass the dealership entirely and go straight to regional management to complain about the shady dealership.

xizor

it has been flooding on the east coast quite a bit, but even then, the air intake tube is in the engine bay, goes back to the resonator, then up to the intake and filter.

shouldn't a mis-shift or over-rev show up on the ECU, I thought dealerships can pull that info

Santacruz

Already did. The rep looked at it and is standing by its hydrolock scenario.

dom

??

JTso

iTrader: (2)

DTC = Diagnostic Trouble Code

You can pull the code with a OBD2 scan tool or the Honda Diagnostic System (HDS).

JTso

iTrader: (2)

I know people have been saying the dealer can pull the info but I'm not sure if this is possible for all cars. I wish Hondata (whom has a Honda Diagnostic System) can tell us if this is true or not.

STL

Seems odd they would do that if they were truly without any real evidence of water being in your engine (which is what you have presented so far). You should ask that they give you their denial and reasoning in writing.

curls

Unless I'm missing something or really have no grasp of the American insurance system, why is Progressive, your insurance company, involved in repairs for a non-accident?

At any rate, i'd get a qualified 3rd party to evaluate the car, without you telling them what he-said-she-said... see what they think. Take it to another dealer too (but don't tell your current dealer as they'd probably just call all the other dealers telling them their side of the story).

acn684

^^ comprehensive coverage, covers your own car dammage.

sauceman

Not necessarily. I've hydrolocked an engine twice in my 95 Accord, stalled, restarted it and drove around with it for another 6 months, finally the damage took it's toll and the engine threw a rod. Valves could be hurt in such a situation when the cam tries to reopen a valve but it's in a lock situation, the stems could bend.

This occured on the road, no deep puddle, just a lot of them combined with a CAI, and voila, you have the potential for a hydrolock.

A few weeks ago, I openned my airfilter box to inspect it, and even though it's all stock, the air filter was pretty damp. I wouldn't discard the idea of an eventual hydrolock situation if you had been driving around in hard rain and lots of water puddles, this eventuality could always happen, though the chances for it seem like a pretty long shot.

In the case of a hydrolock, I'd be very surprised you could find a way to put the blame on Acura. Obviously, it's quite objectable for the insurance company as well. They'll have a million reasons to put the blame on someone else.

xizor

Collision insurance is for accidents, comprehensive is other damage (fire, water, vandalism). Most everyone has both types from their car insurance

pdp

i can only add to progressive being a shit ins company.
about 6 weeks ago i was ran off the road on my motorcycle in ny.
fast forward 6 weeks later to now and there still hasnt been 1 thing done about it.
the adjuster failed to tell me to keep all my gear i was wearing for reimbursement until
after i told him i threw it all out cause it was growing bacteria (i landed in a cess pool.)

lesson learned. never ever go progressive

i hope you work your situation out fairly quickly

curls

I've enver known comprehensive to cover repairs that were not a result of vandalism, fire, theft, etc. If the timing chain slipped, let's say... IMO that would NOT be an insurance claim, and I have never heard of anything like that being an insurance claim, unless it's part of vandalism, theft, fire... which it obviously isn't.

Seems really strange that insurance would even be in the business of funding repairs of engine internals at all UNLESS the damage was caused by a theft (joyride) or some kind of water damage aside from operation in a puddle.

Santacruz

This is exactly the point. If you purchase an insurance policy from Progressive or your TSX is under warranty from Acura, isn't there an expectation that either of them should take care of the customer first and worry about whos bill it is later?! I don't give a crap if it's hydrolocked or mechanical failure, either way this shouldn't be my problem.

Icemant23

I would try to contact the Regional Customer Service Center, I have dealt with them before and it seems that they are not "in bed" with the Dealers. They provide TRUE info, and can speak on behalf of ACURA. Dooshbag Johnny in a blue polo is jerking your chain bud. Get a second opinion.

Second, if ACURA service was to deny such a claim based on "water intake" they would have to prove it. A million things can go wrong with an engine, but these guys seem to be excellent water spotters? If your claim is truly legit (and im not saying it isnt) then acura is responsible for such a repair under warranty(assuming you have abided by the maintenence required). (Might I suggest removing any prominent DIY installs before pursuing this). If you have no luck with this, consult an Attorney, who can throw a lawsuit out for breach of contract. Might cost you a couple bucks in legal fees, but it wont be 14K. Doubtful that ACURA would even take that one to court.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Something just doesn't add up. Have you done anything in recent history that would warrant Acura denying the repair? What about your insurance company?

Sclass88

Which dealer are you working with?? Perhaps try a different dealer in the area...

a504boi

the Progressive name fits them...as time goes by they progressively worsen and progressively raise your incaseshit

mrdeeno

Because theft (which is not an accident) or "Acts of God" (flooding, meteors, earthquakes, lightning, animals) are covered by the comprehensive part...if you have full coverage anyway.

CL Platano

I would take it to another dealer and if the second dealer doesnt satisfy you , lawyer up.

mrdeeno

the way I would expect the insurance company to handle this is that they would charge me my deductible, fix the car under comprehensive, and then figure it out with the dealer...if it DOES turn out to be a warranty problem, then the dealer covers all the work plus the insurance comapny refunds your deductible.

But then again, things don't always work the way they should.

Even if you PURPOSELY drove through a puddle and hydrolocked, the insurance company would still have to cover it unless they can prove you did it purposely (like you took it offroading or something), and that is almost impossible to do. If your car is stock and under warranty, then obviously YOU are not responsible...it's either the insurance company or the warranty, but they seem to have throw you into the equation for some reason (if your car was modded up the ass, then they would have reason to, but as you stated, it's not).

Someone's gotta budge...and it shouldn't be you.

mrdeeno

Actually, most people don't have comp/coll.

There are many people who have no insurance at all, and then there are those that have only the minimum liability. It's only the folks who finance or lease (required full coverage) or have reasonably decent cars that have comp/coll.

subdued

on my decent 06 TSX I have comp/collision. and my car is paid off.

my opin: Progressive is not the best: my moto (sv650) rate was $500 dollars higher when with progressive. dumped them.

sorry you are having to deal with that repair cost Santacruz!