wishiwere

Right, but this is based on MSRP. My point was that, as I said in my original post, the delta is too big between the two cars' MSRPs (hence implying that if you were to buy the cars at msrp, I think the tsx is the better value). But, what I'm saying here is that I think that the TL will be able to be had for more below MSRP than the TSX, if the production numbers and locations remain the same, and therefore there will no longer be a 6k real world difference, but probably closer to $4500 or so (just my guess). In fact, if the TL drops to about invoice, which it probably will based on previous numbers (nothing wrong with this...just about every car out there that is not a new model year can be had for invoice more or less these days), and the tsx remains closer to msrp based on the fact that it is produced in much lower quantities, then I can see the difference becoming even smaller, and if this happens, then I see the TL hurting the tsx's sales (actually, the TL from above, and the accord from below....if you can move up a step and buy the higher car at invoice, or move down a step and buy a slightly lower car for invoice, it becomes very hard to convince joe consumer to buy the middle car for near msrp).
I think the tsx is a very nice car, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with its feature content, or performance or price point. I think the problem is not with any of these specific vehicles, but how Honda has chosen to place and market them. One company now has 3 "midsize or so" family/luxury/sporty sedans, all priced withing $10,000. Of course each one leans a little more in one direction than the other as far as the family/luxury/sporty aspect, but they are all marketed and intended to be blends of all 3 of these, and that to me is not the best allocation of assets. I think the tsx should have been brought up to the price poitn of the tl, and the tl up to the point of the rl, and get rid of the rl, and add a sportier version of the accord sedan (:cough: 6mt v6 sedn :cough. From a business perspective, I think Honda could have made the most money this way. From a consumer's perspective, it's great to have this many choices in this segment, but I really think tehre's not enough differentiation in price or features to keep them from stepping on each others' toes.

tsx-mdxman

I think Larch is dead on. Also, I think the TL is going to continue moving upmarket in price (and maybe features and HP). With 2 sedans covering a broad market segment now, Honda can adjust production of either to meet the total demand. As for the TSX's HP, etc, just look a few years back to previous TL's/Vigors. What was the HP rating, etc? Not even 200, was it? TSX has stepped in to fill a void that existed and brings enhanced performance over its predecessors to get the job done.
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Jason

Wrong again bro

The TL won't be sold for much below MSRP for some time. I have a feeling it will be like the MDX, which still goes for around MSRP. The TL won't go down to invoice until the 2009 TL comes out. Therefore, since the TL will be sold for MSRP (+/- a few bucks) for some time, it will not hurt TSX sales.

larchmont

OK, Jase and I are making totally different calls. Sort of. And the trouble is, I don't know if we're ever gonna be able to tell who's right.

I think the market for the new TL is going to have relatively little overlap with the old TL market, and so I don't see those people going to TSX either -- I think they'll go elsewhere completely.

In my extremely humble opinion (and I mean that, however strongly I express my little opinions), Honda/Acura goofed by keeping the TL name. I guess they did it in the expectation that they'd maintain the old TL market, while of course attracting new people. But on the basis of the advance info, it seemed to me they wouldn't be keeping most of the old TL people anyway, and after driving the car, that's still what I think.

I think they'll still do OK because of the new people they'll get. But they'd have done better at that if they gave the car a new name.

wishiwere

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see why the TL would stay at MSRP that long. Remember the last generation TL? You couldn't get it for a dime below MSRP for maybe a year. But after that first year, and right up through this newest release, you could easily get it for invoice. Why would this one be any different? Of course it is going to go for MSRP now - all new models generate excitement at their release. In my posts, I specifically said in a year or so this would happen. The MDX is in a completely different market - the SUV market is messed up because Americans have some stupid obsession with them. But I for one don't see why this newest TL will play out any differently than the last TL...same market region, same general price range, same volume production (and this is perhaps the biggest key...you can't fight the law of supply and demand....if Honda wants to crank out tons of TLs, then yes, the price will drop a lot, no matter how good the car is or how much people like it...if they supply enough cars such that a good number sit on the lot, then the price will drop to invoice). The new TL is a very nice car, it has some nice features that are not available in any other car, and it will command a premium for a while. But there is nothing revolutionary in it, nothing industry-shattering that will keep its price from falling below msrp once the initial hype dies down and the factory output cranks up.

93Kewl

Also, might I add the TL has an intangible that the TSX never had...the TL is shedding it's image to attract a portion of the car buying pop. that it never reached before. I can't remember how many times (including myself) have heard the statement, "the TL is a nice but it reminds me of a old man's car." With this redesign, I think those barriers will be shattered. As a matter of fact, the TL design was such that if you wanted a sporty car in that price range, you basically had to "settle" (I use that term loosely) for a CL (of course, not withstanding the need/non-need for 4 doors).

I think price-wise, the TL stands right in the mix with the G35 (in my book, it's primary competition) and maxima. Of course, it undercuts the BMW 5 series (which btw, I think looks aweful).

As question for you guys, how much premium do you place on the increased HP and power? Ignore the fact that the TL offers more in the way of pure features. How much more would you be willing to pay for the 270HP 6 cyl? For myself, it might be worth at least 2-3K more.

larchmont

I agree.

Now: How much would you pay extra for the TSX for its handling? Me -- 6K.

How much would you pay extra for the TSX just for being a little smaller? Me -- 4K.

So..... Where do we stand now?

Jason

We don't know the difference in handling quite yet. There was a report (by justin I believe; very credible) that the handling of the TL was just as good if not better than the TSX. If that's the case (let's assume equal handling), no extra dollars are necessary for you Larch.

darth62

Personally, I see the TL as being a slightly better buy than the TSX. For the money, you get a much more powerful engine, lots more features, and a slightly bigger vehicle. I think it is easily worth the premium.

Am I sorry I bought the TSX? No. It meets my needs, and I've been happy to drive it everyday. I can't wait to get into the car everytime. But, if I was making the purchase today, I'm not sure I wouldn't spend the extra money and get the TL.

Jason

Let's call this one a draw Larch because we'll not know for a year or two.

Here's how the exchange WILL go for the average joe trading in his 2000 TL:

Salesman: Here is the new TL. It has a brand new engine producing 265 HP (just kidding), bluetooth, 5.1, etc etc

Customer: Great car, but I don't think I need all that gadgetry and it's how much you say? That's more than I thought I wanted to spend.

Salesman: Ok sir, are you familiar with the 2004 Acura TSX? This is a phenominal car that encapsulates everything your TL did, but with more capable handling and a lower price tag. Wanna go for a spin?

Customer response #1: Hell yeah!

Customer response #2: Does it have a V-6?

Salesman: Nope

Customer response #2a: I wanted a V-6, but if it's as peppy as you say, that'll fit my needs. Let's go!

Customer response #2b: I'm not interested in a four cylinder no matter how technically advanced or peppy, good day.

See. It's a draw.

93Kewl

Wow, 4K for a relatively small amount size difference? Unless TL didn't somehow fit in your garage, you may be going at a premium there Larch.

Handling...hmmm....I definately know where you are coming from. I also know you took a TL out for a ride, so I won't pretend to know how the TL rides. But you know what? As basis for comparison my 9-3 handles a ton better than my CL did but I find that in "day-to-day" driving that fun-factor just doesn't present itself. I could almost bet that the TL will handle road rigors (bumps, irregularities) much better than the TSX. Also, just because the TL (or even my CL) was a bigger car, didn't mean that it wasn't a blast to drive. 6K huh? Interesting.

ucsdtriton

Model: Length / Width / Int. Volume / Trunk / Weight (ATnoNav)

TL: 186.2" / 72.2" / 97.9 cu.ft. / 12.3 / 3,557 lbs.

TSX: 183.3" / 69.4" / 91.0 cu.ft. / 13.0 / 3,318


Interesting, the TL's not that much bigger... but, definitely heavier (by 239 lbs.).

Just for comparison:

Accord EX: 189.5" / 71.5" / 97.7(EX) - 102.7(LX) / 14.0 / 3,210

and... NO, I'm not getting the measurements for a Saab 9.3

93Kewl

Nobody asked you to.

larchmont

First of all -- Nope, that's not what Justin said, if you look close. It was a little hard to tell because he was kind of convoluted about it, but what it came down to was the same that I said: The TL comes close but isn't equal. (If need be, I can find his post.)

Secondly: Although I do think most people will agree the TSX's handling is better and although I'm biased toward the TSX, I noted that there isn't really a clear decision to be made here, since "handling" involves various aspects, and each car is superior in certain aspects. I definitely put more weight on those aspects where the TSX happens to be superior, and so it's worth the extra G's to me for the handling anyway, regardless of what the majority winds up saying.

But I'll bet you the majority winds up saying the TSX's handling is better. And as I read it, that's what Justin said too, although he thought it was very very close.

Although of course if Justin comes on here and says otherwise, it'll be hard to argue with him.

larchmont

You got it, Kewi! You were probably kidding, but in fact that's a big part of it.

larchmont

In case anybody's wondering: The Saab's dimensions and weight are almost exactly the same as the TSX's.

larchmont

I think a lot of these buyers will go to:

(1) Accord EX
(2) Camry XLE V6 and SE V6
(3) Lexus ES 300

1SICKLEX

The 2nd gen TL did NOT have G35 competition. The G35 is gonna really hurt the new TL sales, as the TL is trying to be sportier instead of more luxurious. The G35 has taken a toll on IS 300 sales and 3 sales as well.

The market is overcrowded, Acura should have took their WWD car full blown luxurious ala ES 300.

1SICKLEX

AND FOR GOD'S SAKES STOP COMPARING THE NEW TL TO A DAMN 5-SERIES! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Jason

why?

darth62

The market really isn't that crowed, and that is why TSX sales took off, and why TL sales will take off.

How many sporty cars are there in the $30 - $40 bracket that are RELIABLE? There is the TL, IS300, and G35. The 3-series, A4, and Saab 9-3 are also out there, but all have well documented issues with reliability that will turn some buyers off.

The IS300 is too small and too geeky to be of interest to most upscale buyers.

As for the G35, great car - crappy interior.

Another alternative might be the Maxima, but that has also got big problems (torque steer, crappy interior, lousy ride).

I predict Acura sells 60,000 to 70,000 TLs,and about 25,000 TSXs. They're going to be hot, hot cars for some time to come.

larchmont

I agree with Darth -- if you're looking for certain things like sporty, solid, reliable, fun, practical, and in that price range, there's not much to choose from.

BTW, regarding reliability: I don't think anybody has said this yet, but we're giving the new TL the benefit of some doubt if we assume it will be "reliable." To some extent this was true of the TSX also, but not nearly as much since it was strongly based on a car that had existed for some time and had shown itself to be very reliable. But the TL is completely new (right?).

Yes, the Honda/Acura track record is in its favor -- but we don't really know, do we?

wishiwere

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the current Euro Accord released only a couple months before the tsx? It definitely wasn't around for nearly enough time to show any valid reliability statistics (ie, most all new cars have very few problems in <1 year).

larchmont

Well, I'll be embarrassed if I'm wrong about this: I thought it was A LOT more than that.

I think the "couple of months" you're talking about is when the closest prior version of the TSX was released in Japan, and I think that car was already a bit different from the Euro Accord, which had been out for a few years.

Confirmation, anybody????

93Kewl

Ok, here we go. According to your logic, sales are dictated (or in a large part influenced) by......RELIABILITY. So, according to you there should be absolutely little to no sales of Audis, MB's, BMW's, Mazdas (yes, different class I know), and yes the favorite...Saab's. Didn't you guys ever condsider that some consumers do their homework? Or even better, that some consumers may choose a "less reliable" car in because it appeals to them asthetically or performance-wise?

So in other words, I should have eliminated all cars except the Lexus IS300 (in the category of Sports sedans) 'cause Lexus is the #1 reliable car - even though I can't stand the looks of it?

Unless, I'm wrong, I haven't seen any news lately that sales of the abovementioned cars are hurting real bad (as they should according to you because they are not reliable).

Yeah, I know, this type of thinking get's me in trouble here. And...Don't give me the line "well 93Kewl didn't buy an Acura TSX so he obviously doesn't care about reliability as much as I do." Well, I already owned an Acura and I understand that concept. I just don't think you guys give enough credit to those who may choose a car that "supposedly" is not as reliable as your TSX - which btw is a first year model and has no reliablity history (JDM Accord not withstanding). Remember, the CL's were Acura products too and for the most part were "reliable" cars - anyone rememeber the "tranny recall" letters?

tsx-mdxman

I am pretty sure Wishewere is correct in stating the European Accord, which is the basis for the TSX, was released as an 03 model, concurrent with the new Amercan Accord. We can argue over predicted reliability until the cows come home but odds are, the Honda product is going to be fairly bullet proof with regard to reliability, given the company's track record.
Sales of the IS300 are not exactly trending upward, the G35 is being "incentivized" as we speak and it is a fact SAAB's are being rebated/heavily discounted at present. Volvo is even offering rebates on the S60 now. I believe CR is saying the 3 series has had reliability "issues" as well, not sure how sales are trending for that line but as Kewl points out, some consumers don't make reliability their number one priority when buying cars, so maybe sales are still healthy there. I'll have to check...
Let's give consumers some credit though - a basically unreliable product isn't going to maintain strong sales for long, buyers are not dumb and will not continue to buy "near luxury" products that don't work, regardless of performance. They can't afford to! There is probably a cost threshold for cars (say Ferrari country) where buyers totally don't care about reliability but not in our price range. Rust and reliability issues hurt Audi for several years (not to mention the perhaps bogus unintentional acceleration problem) and they've only recently gotten healthier. Many problems can be covered by warrantee but what happens when they expire? Repairs cost money and resale values plummet, which hurts future sales. Based on my extensive ownership experience with Honda products, together with the experiences of hundreds of thousands of other Honda owners and consumer groups, auto mags, etc, etc, I'm perfectly comfortable predicting the TSX is going to be a winner reliability wise.
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bob shiftright

I'm not familiar with Honda Japan's production schedules ... but the breaking point between designated model years is usually different for the US market and in much of the rest of the world. I discovered with my Volvo the model year break point at the Volvo factory was mid-December for the rest of the world. (This lead to some confusion because one component that Volvo extensively changed right in the middle of the US model year was the motor.)

My main point is that Honda Japan is probably still building "2003" Rest-Of-World-Accords right now on the very same assembly line at the very same time as it's building our "2004" TSXs.

I also think that it's a pretty good guess that the TSX, with all the goodies like the 6-speed, 17" alloys and the strut tower brace probably followed the basic steel-wheel, cloth seat ROW-Accord down the assembly line by at least few months.

larchmont

Anybody know for sure about when the Euro Accord was first produced/released?

Brad

I read somewhere that restyled Honda Accord was introduced last Fall in Europe, but I cannot locate that source of information to be absolutely sure that was correct.

The TL is also an Accord derivative. The odds are it will be just fine too. But anytime there's a new model, there's always room for improvement, fixes, bugs, etc. Honda is known for on-going improvements.

I bet we'll see minor incremental improvements in the 2005 TSX to address rattles, ergonomics, convenience, etc.

larchmont

I'd been under the impression that basically this same Euro Accord had been out for a few years, and that this latest version wasn't a new design/version in anywhere near the way like (for example) the '03 N.A. Accord (which was definitely a complete redesign compared to its predecessor) -- so that indeed the Euro Accord has been out for a few years......

But --- people are saying that's wrong, but nobody yet is sure. Confirmation, anybody?

wishiwere

From the hondanews website, it says
"The all-new Accord Sedan went on sale in the first quarter of 2003. The car is targeted at the quality sports saloon market in Europe - and is a distinct model from the version of Accord offered in North America. With a focus on greater driving enjoyment, both the 2.0-liter and 2.4-liter engines offer sporty performance, while remaining EU2005 compliant - with high fuel efficiency and reduced exhaust emissions."
So it was at most 3 months before thre release of the tsx...don't think that's enough time to make any reliability observations or correlations. As Brad said though, both the TL and the TSX are based on the Accord platform, so I would expect similar reliability (ie, Larch, I wouldn't claim that the TL is somehow more of an unknown than the tsx was...).

tsx-mdxman

Larch, I believe it was the VTEC.NET? site that was showing spy photos of the European Accord last summer, at the same time the first spy photos of the current US Accord were showing up. At the time, I was considering a new Accord (until I saw the pictures). Someone more informed than I will probably be able to verify the introduction date though.
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Brad

Regarding my statement of on-going improvments, I read an article in some rag maybe 5-10 years ago on what Chrsyler engineers discovered about improvements that Honda made to the Honda Civic from one model year to the next (I forgot the exact years) even tho the body styling had not changed at all.

Chrsyler was astonished (impressed) to discover that something like 200 or 300 or so parts had changed and the newer model used significantly fewer parts. Apparently Honda had been pursuing more efficient assembly of parts. By looking at two different model years on the outside, you would never know the numerous differences and improvements under the skin.

1SICKLEX

That is like me comparing my car to a S55. Plain ol silly.
And the 30-40k entry-level market is very over-crowded. No one WANTS the 30k and below market except Acura, that lil Volvo and the silly Benz hatchback.

No the new EURO ACCORD just came out in Europe last year. I can appreciate Honda bringing it here almost right away.

Acura has sold 60-70k TLs since the new one came out. THough it was 27-32k. Not sure a 32-37k TL is gonna sell in the same amount. I am sure Honda has taken into effect less sales but more profit since the TL costs more.

For those that don't know, the MORE EXPENSIVE a platform sharing car, the MORE PROFIT. A 30k TL based on the Accord brings in significantly less than a 35k TL based on the Accord.

If you can't sell 25,000 copies of a 25k car, something is wrong with the automaker.

darth62

Two things I can predict with a fair degree of certainty:

1) Sales of the TSX and TL will be healthy, relative to the competition.

2) Both cars will be extremely reliable.

1SICKLEX

I can't say that. Every friend of mine with a CL or Tl has had their focking tranny go. Paints chipping, leather peeling. These were all bought new. They love the speed but hate their cars.

One jumped ship after his 4th tranny and got a Max. One jumped and got a used GS.

The TSX will be way more reliable than the Tl.

Jason

Are you sure you're not exaggerating here? "Every friend?" How many friends do you have driving TLs and CLs? FWIW, I drove a 2001 CL-S very hard for 82,000 miles and never had a problem.

1SICKLEX

No joke
1999 CL (1st gen) 4 trannies.
2001 CL-S
2002 TL, she traded up to a 2003 TL-S (works for Honda financial, she is fully aware of the problems) cause she gets a discounted rate.
1999 TL

These are what I consider damn good friends. Obviously, the Acura value content got them to Acura but try hearing them biatch about their cars in the shop for a month, try them biatching about the Shitty rental/loaner they get or try picking them up out of town cause their tranny blew in Augusta and they need to get it towed to Atlanta.

It's funny but I just noticed my circle has the same cars. TLs, Gss and Maximas for the most part...

Iceman

I've been waiting all year for the TL to come out, because I don't think Acura will improve the TSX until the TL gets its fair share of attention. Don't get me wrong, the TL is a nice car, if you like FWD cars with oversized V6 engines. The problem with the TL is, those extra 200 lbs are all in the front end. There is no way that car will ever handle as well as the TSX. Sure, lower it, put better wheels and tires on it, give it an LSD, and it will keep up with the TSX around some curves.

But now. Acura, give us TSX buyers the same option. Factory-lowered, with performance tires on 18" wheels. XM radio standard. DVD-A audio system standard. Change the parchment interior to something I can stand to live with, and I will trade in my TSX for a red TSX with all the trimmings!

larchmont

Sounds like Ice is speaking theoretically (sounds like he hasn't tried the TL) -- but I think he's right. In advance, there was a lot of uncertainty about the comparative handling, with theoretical arguments to be made on both sides, and now we're hearing a lot of difference of opinion about how it really is. But it seems to me that most of the people who are arguing for the TL are people who haven't tried both cars.