Someone stop me from buying an Audi A3
05-22-2006, 09:31 PM
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Someone stop me from buying an Audi A3
I had my mind made up. I was going to buy a TSX 6MT with Navi. Test drove the car and was totally satisfied by how smooth and refined the car drove. All the reviews I read were spot on, a great car loaded with useful options.
Mostly out of curiosity, I stopped at an Audi dealer to check out the new A3. I ended up taking a 6 speed manual out for a drive. I liked the lines and the fiesty feel of the car. I then drove the DSG transmission and was blown away. I never expected a transmission to shift so quickly and smoothly.
Now I am doubting whether the TSX is the right car for me. Logic tells me the TSX is still the right car, but my gut is saying the A3 will always be more fun to drive. The A3 is not as well equipped for the price, but the DSG transmission is an amazing piece of engineering. I know I test drove the A3 harder so perhaps I am not making a fair comparision.
I need the TSX experts to remind me why it is still the better car.
Mostly out of curiosity, I stopped at an Audi dealer to check out the new A3. I ended up taking a 6 speed manual out for a drive. I liked the lines and the fiesty feel of the car. I then drove the DSG transmission and was blown away. I never expected a transmission to shift so quickly and smoothly.
Now I am doubting whether the TSX is the right car for me. Logic tells me the TSX is still the right car, but my gut is saying the A3 will always be more fun to drive. The A3 is not as well equipped for the price, but the DSG transmission is an amazing piece of engineering. I know I test drove the A3 harder so perhaps I am not making a fair comparision.
I need the TSX experts to remind me why it is still the better car.
05-22-2006, 09:39 PM
#2
Just tell us where you live and we'll make sure to stop you... 
But in all seriousness, the A3 is more expensive, weighs about the same, has less interior room, and the reliability is very Audi...
The TSX is less expensive, has a better interior layout (in my opinion), has a better MT, and actually handles better (in my opinion, as I drove the A3 pretty extensively).
Either car is a decent car, but the TSX is just a better value. The DSG just doesn't impress me enough to warrant the extra cost and worry.
But in all seriousness, the A3 is more expensive, weighs about the same, has less interior room, and the reliability is very Audi...
The TSX is less expensive, has a better interior layout (in my opinion), has a better MT, and actually handles better (in my opinion, as I drove the A3 pretty extensively).
Either car is a decent car, but the TSX is just a better value. The DSG just doesn't impress me enough to warrant the extra cost and worry.
05-22-2006, 09:51 PM
#5
Still Lovin my 06
it's an audi, why does someone need to stop you from buying it?
the real question is - "do you want a new best friend - the audi service department manager"
the real question is - "do you want a new best friend - the audi service department manager"
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05-22-2006, 10:05 PM
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I say...go with what fits your needs more. I thought long and hard about an A3 loaded up and an A4 base...and ended up with the TSX.
The TSX just had the total package for me...not to say I didn't like the A3 or A4. I thought the A3 got pretty expensive for something that small, however, the thing motors pretty well. I like the lines of the car...but I realized - I needed something that was my main vehicle. The TSX gets wonderful mileage, is a bit more comfy than the A3 and the base A4, and still has plenty of sport to go and play on the highway with. If you drive more highway than city...the A3 may be more fun right off the bat.
Do you want lux first, sporty second, or sporty first lux second. If it's the latter, get the A3.
The TSX just had the total package for me...not to say I didn't like the A3 or A4. I thought the A3 got pretty expensive for something that small, however, the thing motors pretty well. I like the lines of the car...but I realized - I needed something that was my main vehicle. The TSX gets wonderful mileage, is a bit more comfy than the A3 and the base A4, and still has plenty of sport to go and play on the highway with. If you drive more highway than city...the A3 may be more fun right off the bat.
Do you want lux first, sporty second, or sporty first lux second. If it's the latter, get the A3.
05-22-2006, 10:38 PM
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I agree my friend a4 03 had to be brought in the shop aleast 8 times in 3 months.
Light bulbs sensors, crossed wires, and alarm problems. We checked out the A3 and it feel so cheap compared to my 05 tsx. I am happy with my tsx and my friend sortof wished he bought a japanese car.
Light bulbs sensors, crossed wires, and alarm problems. We checked out the A3 and it feel so cheap compared to my 05 tsx. I am happy with my tsx and my friend sortof wished he bought a japanese car.
05-22-2006, 11:34 PM
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Id take the A3.
I love the feel of german cars. the way they drive is just awsome, i think the audi has a better city drive excitement. acuras are better in wide open roads with its vtec.
Thing with audi, you get total coverage through warranty, all parts, even wear and tear items are covered through warranty, so people take it in for every little problem they have, also with free servicing for 5 years or 60k miles.
I've my shares of problems on the audi, but ive had problems just as much problems on the tsx as well.
But i love my TSX,
and if you ask the same question on an audi forum, you'll get responses for the audi. so id say go with what you want. If you always go with the "safe" choice, life can get boring. and going with my gut with how i got my first audi, Over a prelude SH, I feel in love with audis.
but good luck with it.
I love the feel of german cars. the way they drive is just awsome, i think the audi has a better city drive excitement. acuras are better in wide open roads with its vtec.
Thing with audi, you get total coverage through warranty, all parts, even wear and tear items are covered through warranty, so people take it in for every little problem they have, also with free servicing for 5 years or 60k miles.
I've my shares of problems on the audi, but ive had problems just as much problems on the tsx as well.
But i love my TSX,
and if you ask the same question on an audi forum, you'll get responses for the audi. so id say go with what you want. If you always go with the "safe" choice, life can get boring. and going with my gut with how i got my first audi, Over a prelude SH, I feel in love with audis.
but good luck with it.
05-22-2006, 11:47 PM
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I'm in the exact same boat as you, right now...
I drove an A3 2.0T DSG with sport package over the weekend, and I was absolutely blown away by the performance and handling. That extra bunch of tourque from the Turbo really makes a difference in the responsiveness of the car right off the line. The transmission is extremely smooth, and is definitely the way Automatics should be moving. The interior is decently put together, but they do have some ergonomics issues to go through (like the cruise control stalk....I didn't try it out--nor did I ask, but whoever they hired to draw the pictographs on that thing must have been on crack or something, since it seems so complex...it probably *isn't*, once you know, but the diagrams *make* it seem that way). The hatch/wagon idea is great (Mazda6 Sport was one of my other condenders, but it just felt way too cheap)
Prior to driving the A3 (and later on in the day, a Jetta 2.0T DSG and Passat 2.0T 6 Auto), I was about 99% sure I wanted the TSX...after those drives, I was down to maybe 50%. After a couple of days of thought, I'm back to probably 90% for the TSX again.
My reasoning reflects the opinions already stated:
1) Reliability is a question mark--I've heard probably a 60/40 split of people having lots of problems with their VW/Audi products, and those that haven't had issues.
2) Pricing. In Canada at least, there is about $2K or so separating the A3 config I'd want vs. the TSX config (due mostly to the fact that you have to ADD the Sport Package, Bluetooth, Sunroof, Metallic Paint, and Xenon lights to get comparable equipment levels to the TSX. In the 'States, I think it's probably a larger gap, since in Canada, we pay for the Auto tranny.
I guess I'll see (hopefully) this week, how things pan out.
I drove an A3 2.0T DSG with sport package over the weekend, and I was absolutely blown away by the performance and handling. That extra bunch of tourque from the Turbo really makes a difference in the responsiveness of the car right off the line. The transmission is extremely smooth, and is definitely the way Automatics should be moving. The interior is decently put together, but they do have some ergonomics issues to go through (like the cruise control stalk....I didn't try it out--nor did I ask, but whoever they hired to draw the pictographs on that thing must have been on crack or something, since it seems so complex...it probably *isn't*, once you know, but the diagrams *make* it seem that way). The hatch/wagon idea is great (Mazda6 Sport was one of my other condenders, but it just felt way too cheap)
Prior to driving the A3 (and later on in the day, a Jetta 2.0T DSG and Passat 2.0T 6 Auto), I was about 99% sure I wanted the TSX...after those drives, I was down to maybe 50%. After a couple of days of thought, I'm back to probably 90% for the TSX again.
My reasoning reflects the opinions already stated:
1) Reliability is a question mark--I've heard probably a 60/40 split of people having lots of problems with their VW/Audi products, and those that haven't had issues.
2) Pricing. In Canada at least, there is about $2K or so separating the A3 config I'd want vs. the TSX config (due mostly to the fact that you have to ADD the Sport Package, Bluetooth, Sunroof, Metallic Paint, and Xenon lights to get comparable equipment levels to the TSX. In the 'States, I think it's probably a larger gap, since in Canada, we pay for the Auto tranny.
I guess I'll see (hopefully) this week, how things pan out.
05-22-2006, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by euroStyle
Id take the A3.
I love the feel of german cars. the way they drive is just awsome, i think the audi has a better city drive excitement. acuras are better in wide open roads with its vtec.
Thing with audi, you get total coverage through warranty, all parts, even wear and tear items are covered through warranty, so people take it in for every little problem they have, also with free servicing for 5 years or 60k miles.
I've my shares of problems on the audi, but ive had problems just as much problems on the tsx as well.
But i love my TSX,
and if you ask the same question on an audi forum, you'll get responses for the audi. so id say go with what you want. If you always go with the "safe" choice, life can get boring. and going with my gut with how i got my first audi, Over a prelude SH, I feel in love with audis.
but good luck with it.
I love the feel of german cars. the way they drive is just awsome, i think the audi has a better city drive excitement. acuras are better in wide open roads with its vtec.
Thing with audi, you get total coverage through warranty, all parts, even wear and tear items are covered through warranty, so people take it in for every little problem they have, also with free servicing for 5 years or 60k miles.
I've my shares of problems on the audi, but ive had problems just as much problems on the tsx as well.
But i love my TSX,
and if you ask the same question on an audi forum, you'll get responses for the audi. so id say go with what you want. If you always go with the "safe" choice, life can get boring. and going with my gut with how i got my first audi, Over a prelude SH, I feel in love with audis.
but good luck with it.
When I was in the Audi dealership this weekend, they said for 2007 models (which, according to him, were the only ones he can get in now, since he has only 2 A3s available), Audi is dropping the free 4 year free service thing and are charging like $700 or something for it (plus, Audi is jacking the A3 price up by $800...apparently with very few new features)
05-23-2006, 01:18 AM
#18
Driver/Detailer
DSG is amazing. Audi's electricals are not. If you are getting the A3, make sure they throw in free servicing (even though they say the policy has changed, ask for it as a package), get on paper that they will give you a courtesy car free of charge for warranty repairs and above all, be prepared to change car after 1-3 years.
05-23-2006, 05:32 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by MikeMa
When I was in the Audi dealership this weekend, they said for 2007 models (which, according to him, were the only ones he can get in now, since he has only 2 A3s available), Audi is dropping the free 4 year free service thing and are charging like $700 or something for it (plus, Audi is jacking the A3 price up by $800...apparently with very few new features)
I'd consider that the Audi comes from a part of the world where the low cost parts bidder grew up under communism and is just now learning about metalurgy.
I just bought my daughter an Accord coupe as a graduation present, really a VW or Audi wasn't anywhere on the radar screen.
05-23-2006, 06:31 AM
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All depend on $$
Originally Posted by Ronin317
I say...go with what fits your needs more. I thought long and hard about an A3 loaded up and an A4 base...and ended up with the TSX.
The TSX just had the total package for me...not to say I didn't like the A3 or A4. I thought the A3 got pretty expensive for something that small, however, the thing motors pretty well. I like the lines of the car...but I realized - I needed something that was my main vehicle. The TSX gets wonderful mileage, is a bit more comfy than the A3 and the base A4, and still has plenty of sport to go and play on the highway with. If you drive more highway than city...the A3 may be more fun right off the bat.
Do you want lux first, sporty second, or sporty first lux second. If it's the latter, get the A3.
The TSX just had the total package for me...not to say I didn't like the A3 or A4. I thought the A3 got pretty expensive for something that small, however, the thing motors pretty well. I like the lines of the car...but I realized - I needed something that was my main vehicle. The TSX gets wonderful mileage, is a bit more comfy than the A3 and the base A4, and still has plenty of sport to go and play on the highway with. If you drive more highway than city...the A3 may be more fun right off the bat.
Do you want lux first, sporty second, or sporty first lux second. If it's the latter, get the A3.
I did the same thing as you when I get my TSX. after having a test drive with the A3, I found that was amazing. But if you look the the interior again, even it's a SUV, but it's a very small SUV. passenge room is smaller than TSX. After the test drove, I sat down with the pretty sales lady(she's hot!), and I found A3 has tons of the options, after you get it equipped, it's closed to cdn$50000. HID, sunroof, blablabla....
but TSX is fully equipped with the standards for luxury car.
all depend on $$ and how you want to use your car.
05-23-2006, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rogho
after having a test drive with the A3, I found that was amazing. But if you look the the interior again, even it's a SUV, but it's a very small SUV.
hatchback != suvAnyway, i hated the A3. The seats are tiny, the sunroof doesn't have an opaque cover, the interior layout was done by an epileptic sadist, I hated the papery feel of the steering wheel, and the clutch (DSG shmee-SG it's still an automatic, screw that) sucks. The clutch pedal travel is so long I had to flex my hips to engage it, and it can't be adjusted. The salesman actually told me that they had a lot of people bringing their A3s and new A4s (apparently the crap clutch is a new thing for this year) in with burnt-out clutches in the first few months because people are slipping the clutch when they think it's all the way out.
The A4 gave the tsx a much better run for its money but at the end the interior still wasn't as nicely laid-out as the TSX and the clutch still sucked, and the leather, nav (which btw blows compared to Honda's), xenons, sport suspension, and probably a couple other things I forgot that are standard on the TSX added $12k onto the A4. Plus I want to keep my car longer than 50k miles which I just wouldn't feel comfortable doing with the Audi.
05-23-2006, 07:28 AM
#22
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by MikeMa
When I was in the Audi dealership this weekend, they said for 2007 models (which, according to him, were the only ones he can get in now, since he has only 2 A3s available), Audi is dropping the free 4 year free service thing and are charging like $700 or something for it (plus, Audi is jacking the A3 price up by $800...apparently with very few new features)
Audis are tempting to me, but then my rational side kicks in and tells me I'd rather take my chances on a less problem-free car. I'm not the kind of person who can deal with car issues all the time....I hate it. My TSX has been very good to me so far and I have fun driving it.
05-23-2006, 07:40 AM
#23
Bye TSX, hello domestic?
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Originally Posted by euroStyle
Time to find your self a another audi dealership.
05-23-2006, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by xizor
Audi as a whole is cancelling the free maintence program... probably costs them too much money
05-23-2006, 09:09 AM
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GLI was at the top of my list, same drivetrain. 
A-3 was not considered, because A-4 is better value.
But wait, I would not even buy an A-4 because of reliability. Wanted an A-4 for about ten years. Audi couldn't ever show A-4 reliability over a decade. I'm gonna buy into this new DSG stuff on a new platform? No
Two or three year lease? Maybe. I would do a thorough check of the dealership maint policies. Talk to the customers. Leasing the thing could be even worse than owning.
A-3 and GLI are rare here, nobody buying. Seen very few A-3, and I think they came out around June 2005.
Newsflash. The DSG is the real thing and beats MT in performance. VW/Audi did it just right. BMW got it wrong, and has to go back and offer MT in the M cars. In any event, the DSG is a great alternative to automatic, if you are parapalegic.
A-3 was not considered, because A-4 is better value. But wait, I would not even buy an A-4 because of reliability. Wanted an A-4 for about ten years. Audi couldn't ever show A-4 reliability over a decade. I'm gonna buy into this new DSG stuff on a new platform? No
Two or three year lease? Maybe. I would do a thorough check of the dealership maint policies. Talk to the customers. Leasing the thing could be even worse than owning.
A-3 and GLI are rare here, nobody buying. Seen very few A-3, and I think they came out around June 2005.
Newsflash. The DSG is the real thing and beats MT in performance. VW/Audi did it just right. BMW got it wrong, and has to go back and offer MT in the M cars. In any event, the DSG is a great alternative to automatic, if you are parapalegic.
05-23-2006, 09:12 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by 5o9
Newsflash. The DSG is the real thing and beats MT in performance. VW/Audi did it just right. BMW got it wrong, and has to go back and offer MT in the M cars. In any event, the DSG is a great alternative to automatic, if you are parapalegic.
(And BMW doesn't have a DSG, they have an SMG as do many other manufacturers.)
05-23-2006, 10:40 AM
#32
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I had a PWP 2004 TSX Auto and finally traded it in for the A3. I really liked the TSX, but I love the A3. 2.0T with DSG is amazing. Anyone who thinks the DSG is like an ordinary auto is just fooling themselves. Here's the thread I posted last year when I made the switch.
http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26157
Please don't get me wrong... I did enjoy the TSX a lot. It was the torquey 2.0T, the smooth DSG, and the hot-hatch look that won me over. The power/torque difference between the two cars is not even close (it seems from dynos that the 2.0T with DSG puts out about 200 hp / 205 lb-ft at the wheels). For a "heavier" car with a similar HP rating to go 0-60 in about 6.4 means something. Audi paint > Acura paint. No chips on the A3.
The navi in he TSX was much more user friendly. The Audi navi is faster and has more functions and has integrated SD card slots which are awesome, but it's much harder to program since it's not touch-screen.
The interiors of both cars are fantastic. Different looks. Both have great fit and finish. The TSX is more luxury-oriented and "open" feeling while the A3 feels more "tight" and sporty.
But as people mention, you will pay the price for an Audi (more money and more time at the service department). Don't kid yourself there. Honda/Acura reliability can't be beat. The smile on your face from driving should make up for it, though!
By the way, the DSG (Direct Shift Gearbox) is a dual-clutch automated manual transmission. There is no torque converter. It upshifts in 80 ms. Try matching that with an MT.
http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26157
Please don't get me wrong... I did enjoy the TSX a lot. It was the torquey 2.0T, the smooth DSG, and the hot-hatch look that won me over. The power/torque difference between the two cars is not even close (it seems from dynos that the 2.0T with DSG puts out about 200 hp / 205 lb-ft at the wheels). For a "heavier" car with a similar HP rating to go 0-60 in about 6.4 means something. Audi paint > Acura paint. No chips on the A3.
The navi in he TSX was much more user friendly. The Audi navi is faster and has more functions and has integrated SD card slots which are awesome, but it's much harder to program since it's not touch-screen.
The interiors of both cars are fantastic. Different looks. Both have great fit and finish. The TSX is more luxury-oriented and "open" feeling while the A3 feels more "tight" and sporty.
But as people mention, you will pay the price for an Audi (more money and more time at the service department). Don't kid yourself there. Honda/Acura reliability can't be beat. The smile on your face from driving should make up for it, though!
By the way, the DSG (Direct Shift Gearbox) is a dual-clutch automated manual transmission. There is no torque converter. It upshifts in 80 ms. Try matching that with an MT.
05-23-2006, 12:26 PM
#34
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If you can afford to shed a lot more money on maint. for an A3, then go for it. I've had issues in the past having the car in the service department more than myself driving it. And yes, as some of you said here, I've became friends with the Service Manager....if that tells you anything.
05-23-2006, 02:54 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by McGriddle
Anyone who thinks the DSG is like an ordinary auto is just fooling themselves...By the way, the DSG (Direct Shift Gearbox) is a dual-clutch automated manual transmission. There is no torque converter. It upshifts in 80 ms. Try matching that with an MT.
The navi in he TSX was much more user friendly. The Audi navi is faster and has more functions and has integrated SD card slots which are awesome, but it's much harder to program since it's not touch-screen.
The interiors of both cars are fantastic. Different looks. Both have great fit and finish. The TSX is more luxury-oriented and "open" feeling while the A3 feels more "tight" and sporty.
The smile on your face from driving should make up for it, though!
Seriously, the only real driving difference I noticed between the TSX and the A3 that favored the A3 was straight line acceleration, and in my opinion 6.4 vs 7.2 to 60 is not nearly important enough to base a purchasing decision on.
05-23-2006, 03:48 PM
#37
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I just traded in my Volkswagen for a TSX. Ownership was a never-ending battle with the service center. There were so many problems, I assumed the service center was ripping me off. So I started bringing it to independent service centers. They basically told me my car was so effed up they couldn't help me and I needed to bring it back to the dealer.
You have to understand it's not just the money (though the money was annoying). It's not even the time and effort of always having to drop off and pick up the car at the shop. It's that no matter how fun a car may be in theory, it just isn't fun anymore when you stop trusting the car. When every couple months there's a new rattle, a new check-engine light, a new door that won't open, and you just bang your head on the wheel asking, "what is it THIS time."
And while my car was worse than average, it wasn't totally atypical. Take a look at any reliability ratings and you'll see where Volkswagen/Audi stand.
Look, you don't have to buy a TSX. You want to buy a G35 and the folks on this board will pat you on the back with an annyboy. But do yourself a huge favor, don't buy the Audi.
You have to understand it's not just the money (though the money was annoying). It's not even the time and effort of always having to drop off and pick up the car at the shop. It's that no matter how fun a car may be in theory, it just isn't fun anymore when you stop trusting the car. When every couple months there's a new rattle, a new check-engine light, a new door that won't open, and you just bang your head on the wheel asking, "what is it THIS time."
And while my car was worse than average, it wasn't totally atypical. Take a look at any reliability ratings and you'll see where Volkswagen/Audi stand.
Look, you don't have to buy a TSX. You want to buy a G35 and the folks on this board will pat you on the back with an annyboy. But do yourself a huge favor, don't buy the Audi.
05-23-2006, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by stumarsyd
I need the TSX experts to remind me why it is still the better car.
Yes, most everyone loved how the car drove, however the relaibaility was another story.
As one guy put it best; least another Audi, absolutely. Own one, never.
05-23-2006, 04:28 PM
#39
C'mon, man! Row yer own.
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I've not driven a car with a DSG, so I'm guessing. My guess is that, for most people, after the thrill of bump-shifting it is gone they'll leave it in "D" most of the time and it will function as a typical automatic. So I would bear that in mind vs. a 6MT. If you like being involved (I do, I love stick shift), think about how you'll feel in a year or two about driving an automatic in which you have to choose to shift manually.
I would also be concerned about buying into relatively new technology (DSG) from a company not known for reliability as it is. That said, the A3 sounds like an exciting car where the TSX is more buttoned down and only you can answer all the various questions about which feels better to you.
I would also be concerned about buying into relatively new technology (DSG) from a company not known for reliability as it is. That said, the A3 sounds like an exciting car where the TSX is more buttoned down and only you can answer all the various questions about which feels better to you.
05-23-2006, 04:40 PM
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When we bought our TSX a coupla' months ago, it came down to a choice between it and the A3. I really, really loved the A3. The driving experience was outstanding. DSG is incredible, the steering feel was just spot-on, the nav, SD/mp3, & bluetooth integration seemed more slick than in the Acura, the drivetrain noises were far more sexy, and even more subjectively, the car just felt slick. It seemed to have a soul, where by comparison, the TSX feels more generic. In the bay area, there are a gazilion TSX's on the road, which also made the A3 attractive.
Obviously, we (okay, my wife) chose the TSX. It's bigger, less expensive, and as many have pointed out, Acura/Honda has a much more solid record of durability (at least on U.S. soil) than does Audi/Volkswagen. This was important. In fairness, my friends who drive Audis are much more satisfied with their dealer experiences than those who drive Volkswagens. Even the purists I know who drive Volkswagens say they won't buy again. The Audi owners don't share anywhere near that level of remorse.
I got down to dollars and cents on both cars. The A3 was $2k more, with an inferior warranty (fewer months and miles) that was, ahem, $1,100 more. Aside from the fact that my wife is much happier in the TSX, the numbers made the deal a very easy one to close.
Good luck with your decision. It was funny reading this thread, because the sentiment and many of the details echoed my own when we were purchasing.
Obviously, we (okay, my wife) chose the TSX. It's bigger, less expensive, and as many have pointed out, Acura/Honda has a much more solid record of durability (at least on U.S. soil) than does Audi/Volkswagen. This was important. In fairness, my friends who drive Audis are much more satisfied with their dealer experiences than those who drive Volkswagens. Even the purists I know who drive Volkswagens say they won't buy again. The Audi owners don't share anywhere near that level of remorse.
I got down to dollars and cents on both cars. The A3 was $2k more, with an inferior warranty (fewer months and miles) that was, ahem, $1,100 more. Aside from the fact that my wife is much happier in the TSX, the numbers made the deal a very easy one to close.
Good luck with your decision. It was funny reading this thread, because the sentiment and many of the details echoed my own when we were purchasing.